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THANK YOU ALL (more and NEW PHOTOS)

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 09:53 PM

I just want to thank everyone for taking the time to post their congratulations, kind words, opinions, thoughts, theories, genetic/scientific experience, personal experience and more! I couldn't have asked for a better response from the community - this was exactly what I was hoping for!

After spending all day on the phone and emails/forum talking about this, we still have NO idea what is going on here LOL! And that's part of the excitement of everything.

Honestly, after the litter was born yesterday, I was EXTREMELY bummed out. We were hoping for Hypo Motleys and not only did we not get any, but we didn't even get any regular Motleys. I was depressed about the litter for about an hour and a half. Then I went to go take photos so that I could post them and share the experience.

As I was taking the photos, I started to see how truly different these babies are!

For those of you who know me, you know that I am generally a very optimistic person. I am always - "The glass is half full! YEA!" Sean on the other hand is the complete opposite, always looking to the worst in things. He could have something really good happen at the same time something not so good happens and he'll focus on the bad rather than the good. He's always - "The glass is half empty. I want to get rid of it!"

I told Sean earlier today - "You know what, I was really bummed out for about an hour and a half. Then I started taking photos and these boas are REALLY cool and now I'm really excited and intrigued by the whole situation. For about an hour and a half, I realized how you feel all the time!!"

Anyways, I digress. For those of you who think that there are some Hypo Motleys in this litter, I still don't think so. Now I could be totally wrong about this but it's just what I think. We have yet to produce a litter of Motleys. However, we do have three Motleys at this time - our male breeder, a young adult female, and a baby female. All three have white, patternless bellies all the way down to the vent. However, after the vent, the underside of the tail has crazy pattern and color. After speaking with other breeders, we believe that this is a Motley trait.

The Hypos in this litter have white bellies until about 2/3rds of the way down the belly and then there are splotches of hypo coloration all over all the way past the vent and onto the tail. There is NO speckling at all but there is color.

The exact amount of coloration on their bellies and exactly where is stops varies from individual to individual, but they ALL have color on their bellies. Any other breeders out there who have Motleys or have produced Motleys that has differing information, please let me know.

Did the Jungle sire these babies through retained sperm? Did the Motley sire these babies and we just had poor odds? Why are they all females? Is it just a coincidence or is parthenogenesis or something else involved here? What's up with the color and pattern on these babies? We just don't know the answer to these questions.

HOWEVER - we may be able to provide the first step towards discovering a little bit of the answer. We have the access and the opportunity to have a paternity test done on the babies and have decided to persue this option!

SO, in possibly as soon as one to two months time from now, we should have the results from a paternity test telling us which male (or neither LOL!) sired which babies! If we can get that established first, then it would help rule out several things.

Also, I can't remember if I have mentioned this already or not, we have a female normal that is currently gravid. She was bred by the Motley and is due at the end of this month. She was also bred by the Jungle last year and produced a very nice litter of Jungles for us. I am very interested to see how her babies turn out.

So, I will keep everyone posted on the development of this project - what the female normal produces, how the paternity test turns out, and of course, photos of these babies as they shed and grow!

Once again, thank you all for the great discussions and kind words below - I love this forum

Here are some new photos I took today...

Thanks,
Celia

Whole group shots...


-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Replies (26)

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 09:58 PM

is a Hypo Motley...

This is a different baby with extremely intense two-tone coloration. Note the RED colored eyes...

A weird view...

This one is REALLY pink ALL over but especially on her head!

This one has the most aberrancies in her pattern.

A couple of close-up scale shots so you can really see the color differentiation

-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Randall_Turner Apr 14, 2006 11:33 PM

Regardless of what they are, they are some of the prettiest snakes I've ever seen.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 10:04 PM

You really don't realize how HARD it is to get the timing right and snap a photo of the tongue until that's your goal LOL! I wanted to try and take some photos of the Hypo gene carrying babies to show their mottled tongues which is one of the characterisitics that makes me think "Hypo Jungle".

ALL of the Hypo gene carrying babies have multi-colored tongues - white, red, and black. Many of them have white tippped tongues followed by mottled red and black coloration on the rest of the tongue.

Another thing I noticed is that a few of them seemed to stick the very tips of their tongues out first before flicking the entire tongue out. Almost like how Pete Kahl's Super Jungle Boas will sit with the tips of their tongue sticking out. However, these babies don't sit with it sticking out and actually physically put it out - but just the tips at first.

Like in this picture...


-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

DavidKendrick Apr 14, 2006 10:13 PM

Those are some amazing shots...how many did you take to get those...They are beautiful...I have tried to catch tongue flicking on a pick..but it takes about 100 shots to actually capture a good shot...Very nice..Thanks for sharing..Congrats on the new additions..
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Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

wetceal Apr 16, 2006 02:17 AM

60 that I took! I have quite a few pretty nice head shots though where I missed the tongue LOL!

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

JohnLokken Apr 14, 2006 10:14 PM

I love the one in the top pic!!
I'm going to repeat myself. WHAT A GREAT LOOKING LITTER!!!
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

ajfreptiles Apr 14, 2006 10:21 PM

Great shots!!! I tried for about 20 min. one time and still could not get one like that! Great looking Boas!
Andy Federico
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wetceal Apr 14, 2006 10:12 PM

These are pretty much the same as the photos yesterday but I just love them!

Devil Head - she's got really intense fiery red coloration!

Another one

Ms. High Saddle Count!

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Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

JohnLokken Apr 14, 2006 10:15 PM

Any of those go!!!
The normals are as awesome as the hypos!
John
-----
"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

wetceal Apr 16, 2006 02:14 AM

I'm not sure what we're going to do but these girls will definitely be staying here at least for the time being!

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

giantkeeper Apr 14, 2006 10:20 PM

head patterns are crazy! What a cool, and fun litter! I guess you'll be giving those away!....lol ;O)~
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

wetceal Apr 14, 2006 10:20 PM

I forgot to post these photos photos yesterday. These are some of the babies that didn't make it. As you can see in the photos, many of them were extremely kinked and you can see the one Hypo with the crinkly tail that I wasn't able to try and sex. These photos are a little graphic...

-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

VolcomHerp Apr 14, 2006 10:26 PM

I swear what's next to pop up in the mutt world of BCI's! I know!!!!! Somthing a little more off the hook Ball python enthusiast eat your freakin heart out LOL 8)
Very sick little,
take care
later,
Jake ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

rainbowsrus Apr 14, 2006 10:29 PM

What a cool litter.....you know I want one. congrats again and keep us all posted!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
2.7 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (adult breeders)
2.5 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2004)
4.8 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2005)
2.1 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

davel Apr 14, 2006 11:03 PM

I am very happy for you! Next to chasing the hot morphs, those are the kinds of oddities that keeps the hobby interesting...sperm retention, all female, wild patterns, etc.

It would definitely be more boring without the surprises...hopefully I will get a shock from my collection sometime...hehehe.
-----
Dave Lee
www.leereptiles.com

wetceal Apr 16, 2006 02:11 AM

This started out as a "disappointing shock" and turned into a "fabulously interesting and educational shock"!!

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

ChrisGilbert Apr 15, 2006 01:57 AM

First off I am glad you are able to get a Paternity test done, that should provide a LOT of answers.

Second, if it is possible, I would take Blood samples from the slugs and have a Y chromosome check. I have no idea if this is possible as I do not know if there is (1) blood viable in the slugs, or (2) you allready disposed of them, or (3) slugs only have the mother's genes.

I DO see Jungle Characteristics in some of the Hypos, but not all of them. However with Hypo Jungles this is always the case for me, the two genes make things a little confuseing.

The Hypos/Hypo Jungles have the coloration I would expect to see in either a Hypo Super Jungle or a Super Hypo Jungle (since both have improved hypomelanism in the homozygous state).
I think the result of the color/pattern of the babies has to do with "old" sperm.

Just my thoughts!

wetceal Apr 16, 2006 02:09 AM

We actually still have the slugs from the litter LOL. We froze them. However, I don't know if the kind of test you are suggesting is possible? If anyone else might have some information about it, please let us know. I will ask my friend who is doing the paternity test about it as well.

I agree with you about the Jungle characterisitcs being difficult to distinguish when mixed with the Hypo gene. Hopefully we will know in about a month and a half to two month's time if these babies are the result of old sperm, new sperm, or neither!

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

ChrisGilbert Apr 16, 2006 01:32 PM

is that the babies were the result of old sperm from the Jungle last season. The Y chromosome sperm may have been weaker, and not have done its job. This account for the slugs. The X chromosome sperm is stronger and resulted in all female offspring.

Because the Hypos look like Jungles, and there are What appear to be Jungles and definately Normals present I do not think Parthenogenisis is the case, I could be wrong though.

I do think something happened to the stored sperm that caused the Pattern change.
In fact, here is an idea that just came to me.
Pattern anomolies have been attributed to change in the environment (temperature) during pregnancy. What if the change in temperature your Hypo female experienced during the rest of the year affected the Sperm? We also KNOW that high temperatures decrease fertility, so the sperm she had stored was likely destroyed (Y) or affected in another way (X).

One of the people I work with has a Macaw and she said they had a chromosome analysis done to find out its sex. DNA is present in blood, so I imagine a viable blood sample from the slugs could give you this information.

There is one problem I could see. Are slugs JUST OVA, or were they improperly fertilized and died EARLY? If they were at one point fertilized ova (even if the sperm was bad) then my theory might work. If they are only bad OVA then this will not work, as they do not have the chromosome pairs from the sperm.

Brocks Boids Apr 15, 2006 02:05 AM

I've been working some long hours on a new job this week and napping after, lol. It took me a while to catch up on all this great reading, thanks for posting them. First off MAJOR CONGRATS on an AWESOME litter!! I know you had your heart set on Hypo Motleys, sorry you didn't get the results you were looking for but those are Freaky Cool!! I'm certainly no expert but I don't believe they are Motleys.

I checked on the HOTleys and Motleys from my litter and all 7 have no pattern or color before the vent on their bellies. The Motleys have a little fine black graining but the HOTleys are pure white up to the vent with some Orange Tail colors underneath only after the vent. I tried to get some good shots for you but the camera focused on everything but the snake. I think belly shots might be even harder to get then tongue shots on wiry little babies, they just wanted to get away from the guy with the mitts hanging them upside down. Here's the best I could do but you get the idea. I can't wait to see those guys after they shed and I'm looking forward to hearing the results of the tests.
Brock

wetceal Apr 16, 2006 02:05 AM

and thank you for the kind words! Those photos illustrate what I was saying very well. I will have to try to take some pictures of ours too one day.

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

michaelburton Apr 15, 2006 12:16 PM

Celia,
Those are so awesome, its really hard to put it into words. I can't get over the the neon color on the sides. It's just amazing. Noone deserves that killer more then you and sean. My girlfriend and I are thrilled for you two.
Michael Burton

wetceal Apr 16, 2006 02:01 AM

I can't wait to see what they look like post-shed! It's going to be a long wait and I know I will really enjoy taking pictures of them!!

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

dbrasher Apr 15, 2006 06:45 PM

this hypo jungle you produced last year . I had saved a pic because I really liked the lateral color on the animal as well as the head markings .I Found it . To me they are very,very similar. I certainly wouldnt be surprised to see jungle as the sire .Regardless those babies are really freaky cool !

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www.BrasherReptiles.com

wetceal Apr 16, 2006 01:58 AM

That's why we thought "retained sperm" to begin with. We thought that the Hypo babies looked very much like Hypo Jungles and that the "non-Hypo" babies (some of them at least) had classic Jungle patterns (wide squred off saddles with circle "cut outs" in them).

It just seems like the Hypo gene carrying animals have such an incredible reduction of black, it's crazy. They almost look like what I would imagine a Super Hypo Jungle to look like but I'm not sure how that would even be possible although at this point, with all the possible theories out there - who knows!

Thanks for your input!

Celia
-----
Celia Chien
Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

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