Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all, guess my female water dragon got jealous of Sunshine and had eggs issues. She is fine but ended up dropping them from the branch, so I could rescue only 2, a 3rd one is the the pool and must have been in the water for long enough for not being good anymore, if it ever was. She is stil ignoring the sand box and I am not sure if she has more eggs to lay.

Anybody has water dragons and can tell me more about them with this regard?

PS I know it is a little OT, but the water dragon forum is not as populated as this one and I am not getting reply.
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & HYdra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick cats
?.? Some fish

Hey,

I kept CWD's for a while. Funny little dudes arent they? LOL

Anyways........

My problem occured becasue my female didnt feel that the nesting site was deep enough or warm enough (according to the vet). In the wild if they can't find a place to lay they just lay them anywhere or hold the eggs and get eggbound.

My advice: Make a deep area of sand (1 foot deep) and have a small heatlamp over/near it. You may need to remove her from the cage and use a large rubbermaid container filled with sand and bulb. Leave her alone and in there for a day. If she lays in there great! If not....Then she has laid them all in the cage some where..
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Eric

I fight for the unconventional
My right, and its unconditional
I can only, be as real as i can
The disadvantage is
I never knew the plan
This isnt the way just to be a martyr
I cant, walk alone any longer
I fight, for the ones that cant fight
And if I lose, at least I tried....
(Slipknotulse of the Maggots)

I prepared the sand box yesterday since she was digging in the only 4 inches bedding I have in her cage. I put the sandbox in her cage. All this disturbed her and she ignored the sand box (dropping eggs-at least 3- everywhere in the cage)for the rest of the day. Then she behaved normally overnite and this late morning she dug and now she is laying more eggs. She is taking a lot if time but I know that I get impatience with this, plus I don't know dragons' breeding issue; so, as long as she is alert and breathing I don't worry.

did you ever incubate those eggs? did they hatch?

Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & HYdra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick cats
?.? Some fish

Word of warning...is the male in the same cag? If so, he might eat the eggs if he sees them.

I kept/bred water dragons for many years.
What I did to make an egglaying site was to use two plastic dishpans (don't know if you know what I mean, but they are about 8' deep and about 18" square (guessing). I cut a hole in the side of one big enough for the water dragon to go through easily and inverted it over the other one which I filled almost full of washed (moistened) sandbox sand. The female would go inside and lay her eggs. It seemed to make her feel like she was in a deep hole and like it was a safe place to lay her eggs.

You said..."She is taking a lot if time but I know that I get impatience with this, plus I don't know dragons' breeding issue; so, as long as she is alert and breathing I don't worry"...sometimes they do take a long time. Sometimes they will dig test holes or dig for several days before actually chosing the spot and laying the eggs. Patience is a virtue! I didn't ever let my female see me watching her when she was digging.

I let her lay and bury the eggs and let her go back up into the branches, then dug the eggs up and placed them about 1' apart in all directions in a container of moist vermiculite. I filled shoebox sized tupperware type containers about half full of vermiculite that was only slightly moist so that there was "head room" for the babies once they hatched until they could be moved to a cage. You couldn't squeeze a drop of water out of the vermiculite when you squeezed a fist full of it.

I incubated them at about 78F. The temperature would fluctuate between 76 and 80F since my incubator was open to the air and the temperatures in the room varied. I had 100% hatch rate of fertile eggs and at the end of two months 95% of the hatchlings were still alive. Can't remember the number of days it took....but if you look on any WD site it should tell you what the average was.

Clutches were always between 4 and 8 eggs.

Good luck!

Never got any to hatch...only had one clutch...2 fertile and 13 infertile....

Ah well good luck with yours!
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Eric

I fight for the unconventional
My right, and its unconditional
I can only, be as real as i can
The disadvantage is
I never knew the plan
This isnt the way just to be a martyr
I cant, walk alone any longer
I fight, for the ones that cant fight
And if I lose, at least I tried....
(Slipknotulse of the Maggots)

thank you.

She laid 6 of which one in the water pool (gone).
I read to incubate them at 84-86 (believe without night drop) and to cover them with moist sphagnum moss so that humidity is close to 100%.
You are mentioning different temps and you don't mention the sphagnum moss; but you had great success. Should I adjust to your temps? Now the eggs are at 85F with little sphagnum moss on top. Any thoughts?

Also, geez, not sure they will be fertile since, I guess the other one is a male, but I can see the large femorale pore on only one legg, and the crest is not much bigger than the female's one.
Any suggestion?

Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & HYdra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick cats
?.? Some fish

You said..."You are mentioning different temps and you don't mention the sphagnum moss; but you had great success. Should I adjust to your temps? Now the eggs are at 85F with little sphagnum moss on top. Any thoughts?"...there's more than one way to incubate the eggs that works...so you have to decide for yourself which method to go with. The way I have done mine always worked for me so I never changed it. As for the temperature, I don't know what the upper limit is before damage results to the fetus...I can only say that I have never kept them as hot as 85F. Regarding moss...I tried covering eggs with moss a few times a long time ago but the eggs molded. They never did without the moss, so I never used it again. I have heard of people using moss successfully though.

During all the years I bred/kept them, I only had one baby born with a defect (cleft palate). I kept several of the females from a couple of the clutches and they grew up to be healthy, good-sized adults that also reproduced well.

I fed my waterdragons gutloaded insects and a wide variety of fruits, veggies and greens every week. I dusted with calcium often and with vitamin D3/calcium and vitamins/minerals twice a month because my dragons were always indoors.

You said..."Also, geez, not sure they will be fertile since, I guess the other one is a male, but I can see the large femorale pore on only one legg, and the crest is not much bigger than the female's one. Any suggestion?" I would incubate them anyway and keep on until you are sure they are infertile. The worst that can happen is that they are infertile and will go bad in a couple of weeks.

As for telling the males from the females, males have a slightly wider tail base, (the crest and pores you already mentioned) and they have a more pronounced jowl/cheek area. The female's head is a little more slender. Still not the easiest lizards to sex when you haven't had much experience at it!

(At least if you do have two females, you can look for a male and have a trio! Its better than ending up with two males!)

Hope this helps!

. You say "Regarding moss...I tried covering eggs with moss a few times a long time ago but the eggs molded. They never did without the moss, so I never used it again. I have heard of people using moss successfully though". I think that probably the incubation temp indicates if moss is good or it molds the eggs. Probably at higher temp as 85F there is more evaporation and the eggs don't mold.
I choose the "indecided decision" to keep the eggs close to 82...with drop in temp to about 79F. The moss is partially covering the eggs and barely toughing them, I can actually see the eggs.

Thank you for your help. It was great help. I cannot find much literature about WDs as for chameleons.

As for sexing: he/(she?) has a larger base of the tail, slighly taller crest but nothing like the pics I see in the books. So if the eggs are stil good in 2-3 weeks it's either a male or the moss doesn't harm at this temp!

Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

You said..."I think that probably the incubation temp indicates if moss is good or it molds the eggs. Probably at higher temp as 85F there is more evaporation and the eggs don't mold"...that sounds possible.

You said..."I choose the "indecided decision" to keep the eggs close to 82...with drop in temp to about 79F. The moss is partially covering the eggs and barely toughing them, I can actually see the eggs"...hoping all goes well for you!

You said..."Thank you for your help. It was great help. I cannot find much literature about WDs as for chameleons"...you're welcome. If you have any other questions, just ask...I'll do my best to answer them! I've kept/bred WD's for over 10 years.

You said..."As for sexing: he/(she?) has a larger base of the tail, slighly taller crest but nothing like the pics I see in the books. So if the eggs are stil good in 2-3 weeks it's either a male or the moss doesn't harm at this temp!"...how old is your "male"?...sometimes the differences are subtle when they are under three or four.

>>
>>You said..."As for sexing: he/(she?) has a larger base of the tail, slighly taller crest but nothing like the pics I see in the books. So if the eggs are stil good in 2-3 weeks it's either a male or the moss doesn't harm at this temp!"...how old is your "male"?...sometimes the differences are subtle when they are under three or four.

they both are a bit over 2 YO...that could give me a clearer answer.. But woudl the male be fertile already? (guess the female is...he!)

Thanks a lot again,

Chiara

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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

I have had females (that I hatched and raised) produce (infertile, since they hadn't been mated) eggs when they were 2 years of age. I don't believe in mating females until they are fullgrown so that I'm sure she has used all the calcium she needs for her own growth before I put demands on her for fertile eggs.

Yes, males can be fertile at about 2 years of age. It depends somewhat on how they were raised....how close they are to full grown.

thet have been supplementing with vits and calcium since I got them. I made sure to offer food with more supplement after ovodeposition. She seems fine. Soon after laying she went in the pool for a few minutes and then she climbed on the branches.

It was not my intention to breed WD, I was not sure he was a male...still not that sure. If he is not displaying all the secondary characteristics of the male yet, at this point I wonder if he is mature enough to breed...

Thank you again

Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

This is my male. Does yours look like him? sorry, I was gardening all week and haven't been visiting the forum. I always incubate Drago's eggs, even though they are never fertile, but I use a 'wet" home-made incubator. About 56-60 days is typical at 84-86F. Diane

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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

how old is he in this pic? Mine is 2YO

You say the eggs always were not fertilized (you never bred your dragons?); or, did you actually tried those temps and have some hatching?

I agree, those temp and durations are mentioned everywhere in books, but seems that lower temp (~78) can be very successful too (see previous replies to my message). I am keeping mine just a bit warmer than the veiled cham eggs (still pretty chilly in here some days)

Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

He is approximately 28 months old in that picture. It is from last fall. Drago has not been housed with him-he lives with a real nasty female and I had to move Drago out due to intimidation issues.
Dianes herps My personal CWD website

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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

Are the eggs not fertile because you don't mate them...or is there some other reason?

That is correct. I have three CWD, all three are 30 months old. Drago is the one who lays eggs, but she is only 20 inches long and weighs 200 grams. Avanyu (M) 676 gm.and Tripod (F) 400 gm. live together. Tripod is extremely territorial. She even dominates Avanyu. Tripod has never laid to date. I had to put Drago in a separate enclosure as she was being badly intimidated. Since she had been in the enclosure through last September, I went ahead and incubated both clutches of 2006 eggs. The 2nd is in the incubator now but I think they are also infertile and will dispose of them next week. There is a young girl on RZ (Lizard_grl) who is raising hatchlings from her clutch of 2005 and has 9 eggs ready to hatch soon. You might give her a shout. She uses a Hovabator at about 85F. Ingo on the KS forum is also a wealth of information. I'm just glad your female laid them all. When I read your first post on the CWD forum I was really worried but you sailed through it all like a Pro. BTW, that picture of my male is from last fall when he was approx. 28 months of age. He will be 3 in July. If your 2nd dragon hasn't developed the high spikes on the tail and very pronounced mid-sagittal spikes then it is not a male. By 18 months the tail base widens and those spikes begin to become very pronounced. Within 4 months you have no doubt that he is a he. I have a website with a few photos of my 3 and their habitat at:
Link

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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon