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How much money would it take to start up a small breeding project ... one that could turn a small profit, but would mostly be done for fun with a group of say 8 - 15 pythons with a handful of hets? Also, factoring in equipment for housing, lighting and food - what kind of investment would a new breeder be looking at? Ball park figure I mean ... thank you

I BOUGHT 16 NORMAL FEMALES A PASTEL MALE A CINNY MALE A RACK SYSTEM HITH 21 TUBS AND OTHER THINGS LIKE HEATER, HUMIDIFIER, SCALE, AND OTHER ODDS AND ENDS. i HAVE INVESTED ABOUT 16,000 $ SO FAR. i DONT PLAN ON MAKING ANT MONEY FOR SOME YEARS TO COME. i HOPE TO PRODUCE OFFSPRING TO HOLD BACK FOR FUTURE BREEDERS AND SOME TO TRADE FOR OTHER MUTATIONS TO EXPAND MY COLLECTION. dONT BUY TO GET RICH. THEIR ALOT OFF WORK AND TIME . DO IT BECAUSE YOU ENJOY IT. I DONT PLAN TO SEE ANY CASH RETURN FOR ATLEAST 5 YEARS.

CHRIS SRBINOVICH

p.s. IF I HAD IT TO DO OVER AGAIN I WOULD INVEST IN RECESSIVE

i know ... its not for money, im just saying that eventually ill probably sell off a few of the offspring when i am far enough along - i wouldn't do it for the money, i do it for the snakes my friend

Yah, thats what they all say, but you just asked about an "investment". Dont be shy in this business to say you are trying to make money. I would rather buy from someone who is honest to me and them self, than buy from someone who is putting on a show. I can tell yuo first hand when you have 20-30 balls and hundreds of mice and rats to care for, you will be thinking "I sure as **** make some money for all this work." Also, its not just a one time investment. What ever you think its going to cost, add 50% and figure on the price of any morph droping 50% each year. So if you go buy 10 normal females ($20ea), and 1 male pastel ($500), if you breed the mice and rats figure on about $10 per year per snake cost, if you buy food, figure on $70 per snake per year... so now if you buy the food, 2 years from now pastels will be about $200-$300 (if yer lucky, saw one go today for $375, and couldnt sell one of mine for $400)... so figure on $1400 in food for 2 years... so now figure at 2 years maybe half will breed, you should get half of the offspring as pastels (avg of 4 egg per clutch)... thats 10 pastels all worth $200 each ($2000). So now you have paid for food and the cost of the snakes... now you have to breed for another year to pay for the cages... whats my point? With ball pythons, if you going to go, go big. Your only shot at making any money is to do something someone else hasnt or something there is little of. That last statement should be valued at around $20-$40k.

I completely agree i just started out and i have 1.0 albino 0.2 het albino. I was given the advise to go with recessive for teh money...and i chose albino because of the less rare recessive mutations i lvoe the albinos...mine are new borns ('06's) and i play with them while learning more every day about the behaviors and caring of these fantastic creatures. If i never made a cent on them i wouldn't care...which is definately the attitude to take otherwise you just giving you and your snakes(they do have apathy you know) undue stress.

Crimson

Crimson Contrictors

Probably around $5000 should get you on track with a pair of het Piebalds, a pair of het Albinos and a pair of het Ghosts and a small number of baby normal females.
If you are handy you can make your own racks for around $600 to $900 or so for materials including heat tape, tubs, and a good thermostat.
The less patience you have the more it will cost...

Hope this helps,

Rob Reiding.
Link

Definately helps to be handy to build your own stuff. We started out with 1.2 normals and that was in '03. Now that we are actually going to be breeding them and hoping to make a bit of money, enough to get the other morphs we want we have been constantly getting more. Over the 3 years we have probably spent. $7500 for my snakes, and I have 8.23 (1.0 pastel poss het ghost, 1.0 het pied, 1.0 Black Stripe, 1.0 het albino black stripe, 1.0 het ghost, 3.19 normals, 0.4 het albinos). $2500 on Racks and my incubator, that is one juvenile rack holds 15 and the adult rack holds 12 custom made for me incubator holds 8 to 15 depending on what tub I use.. $3000 for food and electricity etc over the 3 years, I buy my rats and mice. Now factor in Cleaning cages, feeding etc and the time you spend That is all free I love that part This year we have 10 eggs in the incubator (2 clutches) with another 3 more clutches on the way and possibly 2 other girls that will still go this year. After 3 years we are producing babies but I started with all hatchlings pretty much and the original 3 I got were small and slow growers and we didn't buy more babies till '04. Next year we are hoping to have 22 females up to size or more. The biggest investment you will make is your time.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

CIN MALE 4K
BREEDER NORMAL FEMALES 350 EACH TIMES 8
10 SLOT RACK 400-500
EXTRAS 500

If your male gets 4 females gravid and they average 5 eggs each thats 20 eggs with 50 50 odds you should have 10 cins,,, if you sold em all at half market value you would still make 10k profit.

I see lots of people who arent business people giving advice,,,,

If you wanna do it for the hobby do it for the hobby,, if you wanna do it for money do it for money,,, but dont sit here and tell me it will be 5 yrs to see a profit,,,,,,,

Your forgetting a few things like electricity, food, etc...
and the fact that cinnys will be worth about $1000-$1500 in 2 years when a new breeder would actually be producing them. So in short, no matter what you do, you will be lucky to break even in one breeding season, really lucky if you make a profit by the second season, and most people who are in it for the money quit before they get to their third breeding season...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

I used prices for breedable snakes... 350 per breedable female and i used half the going market value for the baby cinnies in my equation. doesnt cost much to heat one rack and feed 9 adult and 20 hatchling bp for a year.

redo the math

also,, the snakes dont sell themselves,, you have to be able to sell em.. but that goes with any business.

So??? Breedable snakes aren't going to produce for you just because you think they are the right size. If you bought a bunch of females now, they are not going to produce for you until mid 2007, at which point cinnys will be about $1500 if you are lucky ($4000 currently, $2500 by the end of this season, $1500 by mid next year if they follow similar trends as other dominant or codominant traits). Now figure that you are a virtually unkown, so you are not going to be able to sell your snakes at anywhere near market price (definitely not the price you see people advertising on KS) So if you have 10 cinnys (which I think a novice breeder would be lucky to produce in his/her first year), you would be lucky to take in 10K which would just barely cover your initial investment. However, i agree this is not bad, few investments pay for themselves in one year, but you will be far from making lots of profit like some people will claim.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

If you don't have you own rat breeders you can expect to pay somewhere around $2-3 per rat. 9 adults eating only 2 times per month =18 rats per month = 216 rats in a year = $540 ($2.50/rat). Figure another $200 to feed your hatchlings...I would say that is not negligable...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

Figure 150W to heat a 10 high rack (a very conservative figure)

150W X 24 hrs per day X 365 days per year = 1314 kW/hrs

The national average electricity cost is $0.10 per kW/hr ... you are looking at about $130 dollars to heat that rack, if you live in southern california, the price could be double
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

well i got you beat in my equation i set aside 1k for electric and still see a profit

My original post stated

1. buy adult breedable male cin 4000
2. buy 8 aduly breedable females 2800
3. buy 10 slot rack and 20 slot baby rack 1000
4. buy 1 years worth of food 500
5. buy 1 years worth of electric etc 1000
6. buy a fridge and make an incubator 300 max
7. 400 extra for misc

total investement to date 10k

lets say only 4 of the 8 females become gravid and average 5 eggs each, if 50 percent are cinnamons that makes 10 cins

today they sell for 4k average price some higher some lower,,,

if you sold the 10 cins at half of the average market price.... you would gross 20k which after your initial investment would net you 10k profit.

Im not saying breeding balls will make you rich,, its actually a good way to fund your habit but dont sit here and tell me it takes 5 years to turn a profit,, if thats the case you should even think of calling yourself a businessman,

just because someone can read this and try to copy the math doesnt make em a business man,, look at all the big names in this hobby/business,,, they are true businessmen

tho I don't entirely disagree with your business plan = I know a lot of people that just got into balls following the same plan with Mojaves - however most of them ended up doing more trading with them than actually selling them and didn't get a big ROI but have added some nice animals to their collection.

Also if the person is lucky there wont be a huge run on cinnys that year leaving them with a bunch of animals they are having a hard time selling. This year I ssuspect there will be quite a run on cinnys and I would imagine this seasons price will be $2500-$3000, an unknown person will be aiming at the lower end just to sell - going half market price will barely break you even. You are looking at about $2000-$2500 to be the going rate for cinnys when this person is trying to sell next year - half that market price barely get you anywhere.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

im not sure if you read my post but,

i set the price for cinnies at 2k and still managed a 10k return

just to satisfy the naysayers,,, lets say i sold my 10 cins at 1500 a piece i would still clear 5k profit from this venture

ps i dont even own a cin just know business and numbers

pps if you trade your animals u cant cry that u broke even,,, you are rich in animals and did indeed get a return on your investment....

I guess my point is, you are not going to get 20 K selling 10 cinnys as a virtually unknown breeder in mid 2007. You would be LUCKY to get 10K and break even. That is if your breeders are actually CBB as you bought them as and not pawned off WCs, that is if you don't mess up the incubation and kill a bunch of your eggs, some eggs go bad, some females will not produce after being moved into a new environment for at least one season. Maybe your male decides he isn't a stud and you have to wait a whole extra year. Maybe your females produce a bunch of slugs. Rarely do you get as much as you expect to, when it comes to ovulations, gravid females, eggs, hatchlings, and sales. Numbers can be fun to play with, but I don't know anybody that turned a big profit within 2 years that didn't first invest over $150k to get started. If you start out slow, expect the returns to come in slow.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

looks like life handed you lemons

we agree to dissagree

Well, just speaking from experience and the experience of the many people I have talked to. i have been hard core into this hobby for about 1.5 yrs and $20k. I currently have a clutch of spiders and a clutch of pastels in the incubator...and my fingers crossed for a few more clutches this year. I doubt I am going to break even by the 2 yr mark and I feel that I have been extremely lucky thus far with no major problems (I kept balls for about 4 years prior to trying breeding).

"If you are breeding balls for money, you'd be better off getting a job at Wal-mart." ...my bid for quote of the week.

With the number of hours you spend on the internet, at shows, looking for deals, feeding, cleaning, networking, etc... you would make way more than 10k if you just got a second job getting paid minimum wage

However, if you are doing for the love of the snakes, you will be paying yourself a thousand times over when you hatch your first snakes...even if they are just 'worthless' normals

Let me know how you business venture works out...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

It already has

ps,, interesting posts,, some ruffled feathers what could be more entertaining

best of luck to everyone this season

No ruffled feathers hear, I love this debate and have taken up both sides of the argument at times. However, I suggest the following ammendments to your business plan. Replace your 8 $350 of normal females with 8 $2000-3000 adult pastel females (real 1600-2000 gram adults). Sure you will be spending an extra $17k, but you will be producing pewters, pastels and cinnys and would be much more likely to get a solid return after 2-3years. Pewters will likely hold their value longer and even at 10K each, producing 4 (from your 20 eggs) will net you $40k, plus you would have 4 cinnys and 4 pastels to play with. Or you could hold back the pewters for even greater returns with 3 way combos in the future.

Well if you have 25k to invest anyway...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

I don't think its a case of ruffled feathers as much as it is irksome that people glorifying breeding as a get rich quick business. And I fully understand why people push that but in the end if it's not about the snakes - you really shouldn't breed.

And yeah you can make some money - but it's far from being free money.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

IT IS WHAT IT IS

In hobby like ours you will have people that do it for the animals and you will have some that do it for the money, you may also have some that do it for both. Bottom line is you do it for your own reason and dont cast your views on others. Too many hobbies are cut up into groups. Take hunters for instance. You have Gun hunters, and Bow hunters some do both but some are diehard Gun or Bow hunters and spend all day bashing one another. In the end PETA and other organizations are also against the hunters. I think if they were united and realized they both were on the same side PETA wouldnt stand a chance.

UNITY IS BEST IN ANY HOBBY....

Ain't no such thing!

As someone that spent the first half of Easter Sunday cleaning and feeding I can attest to that.

And I see nothing wrong with making some money from something you like to do. In fact, I highly recommend it.

Here are a few things I've learned from raising corn snakes:

Don't borrow money to start your snake business, then you (and your snakes) won't be pressured to produce to pay off loans.

Do take excellant care of them, they will reward you will better quality offspring.

Know what you're getting into BEFORE you purchase your first snake, read all you can about optimum care, talk to as many people in the business as you can.

Don't scrimp on the care basics, if you have to, buy a few less snakes.

If you're serious about a certain morph, get at least a 2.3 group, better still a 3.5 group to start.

Buy the best snakes you can afford, whatever the morph/morphs you want are. Quality usually produces quality.

As with any business, don't expect to turn a profit for 2-5 years and be prepared for that. Remember - you'll also need to allow for things like food, bedding, possible vet visits and meds. so set aside some money to cover those things. In other words "Don't quit your day job"!

As far as what snakes to purchase, get what you like the most, you'll enjoy it more. I just love the bumblebees and spider albinos, so to that end I'm starting with pastels, het albinos and normals. I'll pick up a spider as soon as I have enough cash for one. If you like, say pastel pieds, work with that. If you're having fun with your snakes the money will end up to be secondary anyway.

Good luck,
Cheryl

n/p

...
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

very well said...

Rob Reiding.
Link

Just out of curiousity, which ones are the people giving advice that you think don't know anything about business? I know there are some people responding to this post that are very qualified reptile breeders and have been breeding reptiles for many years, making a profit in most years, and even have business degrees and degrees in Biology. Like with some other businesses, the less patience you have and the more profit you'd like to make , the more it will cost you initially.
There are a few reptile breeders that were using "simple math" to calculate their profits that are no longer in business.

Have a great day,

Rob Reiding.
Link

I dont think you should take it personally Rob

I was basically speaking about the overall tone i see at this site,, someone asks and everyone responds that you cant make money do it for fun etc,,,

your advice you posted was sound no need to get upset

ps business is 40 parts brains 40 parts motivation 40 parts luck

o wait thats 120 parts scratch that

ps if you can only make a profit SOME years you had better find a new business

Not taking anything personally, just keeping the discussion going. Thanks for your response!

Rob Reiding.
Link

6 sets of ballroom racks.....$2G

2 pasel males $1G

10 to 18 females $100 to $200 TO alot more.depending on size and birth country.....(figured on $10 for baby Africans...) ($40 for American mades).....

.......keep baby pastel girls........till you got at least 10......then sell normal females off and keep pastel girls when pastels are big enough to breed......

all under $4G

1 pastel male ($500)and 3 females($120) and one ballroom rack ($325?) to start for .......
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JYReptiles

Scales-N-Tails Reptiles ltd........Pa

I say if your handy build racks for $350. Build 3 of them that hold 8 of the 41qt tubs. Thats 24 cages. Buy 20 female imports at $20 each ($400). Get a Male homozygous of something recessive, and a homo male of something else recessive. Lets say you get pied ($4000) and albino ($1500)... that puts the current total at $6250. Now if you have some extra money get some good females such as hets or homos os the recessives you bought. Get 1 het pied female at $1500 and a homo albino female at $1500. Current total is $9250. So you have now filled the cages, have some good females up and comming, and several very popular morphs that we could refer to as root morphs. They will always be popular, because they make good mixes. You will also be able to make double hets the first breeding year if you breed the pied male to the albino female. Its not a quick turn around for profit, but the trading potential is there.

Good luck, and dont put more into a live animal than you would put on one number on the roulette table. They CAN always die. Thats one thing people never figure in. If that pied male dies, you still have some other things to keep the projects going, but I see some people buy adult normals for $500 each and one very expensive male co-dom and then it wont breed or dies. Heh. Not a good idea.

Ben

I was asking similar questions earlier, and then I realized that it's not really an investment. Breed reptiles because you want to breed them, not because you are planning on making money from it.

If I ever breed any of my reptiles, I plan on losing money, not making it. It's about the experience, not the profit.