Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a female super..This line originated from wildcaughts that were collected by Llyod Lemke from The Amelco, Mexico.
Hope you liked the pics...

Pic

man those rock i love abberancies(esp. when they breed true!) i have this group of striped hondos online for '07,,,,,,thomas davis

Thanks for the compliment...those are killer, man I wish you best of luck, hondo's have all the cool colors but not many pattern mutations (unless you count vanishing ,tricolors etc..)This is just what they need for a whole new round of morphs..
Striped Tangerine albino's would rock...

Hey Thomas, I hope you're filling their bellies! I wanna see some babies from those, one of the most anticipated projects I look forward too seeing the results from for 2006. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

hey tom, the stripe group consist of 1.6 all sibs only 2 have complete stripes but others have some cool abberancies going, anyway this group unfortunately wont go until '07, they are early '05's and just reaching the 3ft. mark now, but i will have some albinos,tangs,dbl.hets. that are going this year im a hopin for a good year, i have witnessed copulations in this group this last week ,,,,,,,thomas

That one is my fave but it is easy to understand why you're excited about this project, can't wait to see the babies
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I'm on Aaron Mattson's '06 Ruthveni list. I know his male comes from the Lloyd Lemke line, het for stripe. I can't wait to see what he produces.
-Phil

I have seen some "supposed" abberrants produced by that male, but nothing more aberrant than a missing band or two.I was offered some last year for very little and turned them down. Honestly I doubt they have the same genetics due to the fact I have seen nothing really unusual comming from them yet.They could be from the same line, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have the same genetics. Even when I breed stripe to normal I get some really bizarre looking animals, much more aberrant in my opinion than what has been produced by those animals.
Not trying to knock Aarons ruthveni, but saying they are from the same line leads people to believe they have similar genetics. Which needs to be proven through breeding. Do you have any pictures you can post of aberrants produced by those animals. The only ones I seen I wouldn't even call aberrant.Maybe I am mistaken?

I stand corrected, Aaron didn't claim that they would breed aberrants or even stripes. Actually what drew my attention to this pairing was that they are NOT het for albino, I'm not too crazy about albino's, just a personal taste thing. He just stated that male was a wild caught het for stripe/aberrant, not from the Lloyd Lemke line, and that the female was a Ric Blair captive born '96ish. I'd be happy if they were just normal looking, but we'll have to wait and see. I haven't seen any photo's of the offspring to see how they look. Maybe Aaron could post some. I'll e-mail him and see if he wouldn't mind.
Thanks for the photos and the responce. They look great!
-Phil

Hi Justin. My snake which is in question here is THE original wild caught by Lloyd Lemke that started ALL of the abberrant/striped ruthveni, including yours. It looks like a normal ruthveni and it is the grandfather or great grandfather, whatever to your strain. I have never claimed to have produced a striped/abberrant myself. I have only bred hin to two females. In the '90's I bred him to an albino female. I sold all the babies to one guy. I also sold the albino female (along with an albino male) to somebody else. So there was only one breeding I did with him... Until 2005 when I bred him to a completely normal female that Ric Blair gave me. This female was from stock that came in before there were any albinos or striped/abberrants. My primary intrest is in producing classic normal ruthveni, that is why my wild male has not been bred until I got that normal female from Ric.
Now back to the original wc male. I have been good friends with Shannon Brown for a long time. Shannon originally had your snakes and my male. Before you got his group (through Randy Limburg) I was at Shannon's house and he gave me the original wc male. This was way before any inkling of the deal you, Randy and Shannon did.
I have posted pics over on the mexicana forum of some of the babies I produced in 2005. The reason they are not abberrant has got to be because my breeding was from a HET abberrant to a completly normal female. You are breeding striped/abberrants to het striped abberrants and striped/abberrant to atriped/abberrants. We have the same thing you are just way ahead of me. The earliest I will even be able to breed het to het is 2008 as I never breed before 3 years old.
In 2005 what I produced was 3.2 possible hets. I gave 1.1 to Shannon Brown and I kept 2.1. Here pic pics of the 2.1 pos. hets I kept in '05. I don't have pics of the ones I gave to Shannon. If the wc male and normal female produce again Patton is on the list for just pos. hets. not for striped/abberrants. Hope that clears this up.

Sorry if I sounded too harsh. I did take a little offense because in emails between you and me I was the one that told you Lloyd caught ruthveni in Amaelco as per my personal communication with Lloyd many years ago and it was only a few days after me and you spoke via email that you began calling your snakes Amealco's and now you are saying mine are not the same thing.
That said I must give credit where credit is due. You have some very fine snakes and have taken this project farther than anybody, especially in regard to figuring out what exactly is going on with these genes.

To further clear things up I was under the impression you had bred the het male to the abberrant female Shannon had sent me pics of.My mistake.I appologize for the confusion.
I never said they weren't from the same line, if you go back and re-read the post you'll see that. I just questioned if they had the same genetics, which to me is still unproven. I have not personally seen het X het breeding with these animals yet so I do not know how that will behave. This trait is both recessive and co-dominant.So it may not be as clear cut as Het x Het and you get abberrants.Some Co-Dom traits just kind of pop up, without het to het breeding etc..So IMO It is a little early to tell how much of a part the Co-Dom trait will play in producing abberrants.This trait is proven and 100% reproducable, but it does not follow simple recessive.So making predictions based soley on simple recessive rules maybe incorrect.
As far as the locality thing when we talked I had mentioned that you weren't the 1st person(nor the last) to mention that locality. But you were the 1st person who knew how to spell it and correctly pronounce it LOL..

Here's something interesting to consider..
One of the original striped males is het for albino..and is compatible with the albino strains we have now.
So the original WC male was obviously outcrossed to the albino line before the stripes were produced. If thats true then it is very possible that the gene came from the outcrossing and not the WC? Unless the WC male was bred back to one of his offspring and then the stripes were produced? I wished Mr. Lemke was still around to ask what exactly took place!!

I sure hope I didn't upset either one of you. I was just excited about Aaron having a bloodline of Ruthveni that are as close to the colors and pattern found in the wild as possible. I hope I didn't start any confusion and rumors. If I did I'm very sorry, that wasn't my intention. Thanks for straitening everything out Aaron. I'm looking forward to getting a pair from you.
-Phil

No problem Phil, I hope I can provide some nice normal looking ruthveni for you this year a believe me I am just as excited about that as you.

"Unless the WC male was bred back to one of his offspring and then the stripes were produced?"

I am assuming that is what happened. I only know that this wc male was given to me and I was told he was determined to be the source of the striped/abberrants. I did not ask how that was determined because I just wanted a legal wild caught Mexican kingsnake which is rarer than just about any morph of anything and to me more desirable. I have never heard it questioned until now.