Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Goodmorning everyone. Well, over the week-end my daughter called me and said..."mom, come get this turtle!" When I asked what turtle, she said that one of her dogs had a turtle cornered in her backyard. Mind you.....this is a fenced backyard......rock wall. There is a gate that it could have walked through though. My question......what do I do with this turtle?

I originally thought that it could be the one that my grand-daughter launched off of the balcony when she was 4 1/2 years old.
That is another story though. I'll just say that my daughter was taking care of my turtles for me while I was living out of the country for several years and the only place she could keep them (because of her dogs) was up on her balcony (front yard) so that is where they were kept. At the time the turtles were all between the sizes of half dollars to silver dollar size or maybe slightly larger.

Anyway....to make a long story shorter, one of the turtles was "accidentally" launched over the balcony, landing on the truck, and then landing on the drive-way where it walked away.....but where....no one knew. So, I am not sure that this is not that turtle (several years later of course). It is an ornate just like all of mine are, except it has a green head (one of mine has a blue colored head) and the skin on its body (the tender skin inside the shell area) has stripes on it. Kind of reminds me of a zebra or tiger. Anyway.....I am not sure what to do with it. At first I thought about putting it with my turtles (after a time of observing it of course), but now I am having 2nd thoughts.

I am thinking that perhaps it walked into the neighborhood after being disturbed by new building projects across the road which is behind my daughters house. The turtle would have had to walk an awful long way to get around all the area before it could make it into the neighborhood though.

Anyway......any thoughts here? I have thought that maybe I should take it out to the desert and let it loose away from all the traffic. But then I get to thinking that maybe it is captive bred and raised and wouldn't be able to take care of itself. I don't want to put it in the pen with my turtles......so I could leave it out in the yard. Or.....I could get ahold of the (can't think of the name of it but it is a rescue organization)people and give it to them. What do you think? Could it possibly be the turtle that "flew" the coop? It has a little chip out of the edge of it's shell, and of course is not in the same condition as my turtles, though it is the same size basically. No one has put any flyers out about a lost turtle in her area.....so........any thoughts???? Thanks in advance......9boxies

>>Anyway......any thoughts here? I have thought that maybe I should take it out to the desert and let it loose away from all the traffic. But then I get to thinking that maybe it is captive bred and raised and wouldn't be able to take care of itself. I don't want to put it in the pen with my turtles......so I could leave it out in the yard. Or.....I could get ahold of the (can't think of the name of it but it is a rescue organization)people and give it to them. What do you think? Could it possibly be the turtle that "flew" the coop? It has a little chip out of the edge of it's shell, and of course is not in the same condition as my turtles, though it is the same size basically. No one has put any flyers out about a lost turtle in her area.....so........any thoughts???? Thanks in advance......9boxies

I have a million thoughts going all over the place right now.
I'm always conflicted these days because of that theory floating around that says a wild turtle taken from it's territory then placed into another won't thrive because it doesn't know where the food and water is.
The theory makes sense in a way but on the other hand I don't know if I can believe that they are not resilient animals who can't learn a new territory. Look at how many millions of years they've managed to survive.
If I were in your shoes right now, I'm not sure what I would do. Probably keep it for a while, observe, then decide.
I need more caffeine right now. LOL
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PHRatz

"I'm always conflicted these days because of that theory floating around that says a wild turtle taken from it's territory then placed into another won't thrive because it doesn't know where the food and water is.
The theory makes sense in a way but on the other hand I don't know if I can believe that they are not resilient animals who can't learn a new territory. Look at how many millions of years they've managed to survive."

nothing would have really moved them miles from their home range alive, the only ones who do that to them are humans.
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>>nothing would have really moved them miles from their home range alive, the only ones who do that to them are humans.

That's true but then today I read on the tortoise board that someone had lost a red footed tortoise a year ago in FL then it was found alive & well a couple of days ago.
At the zoo in Abilene TX they got a call one Sunday last year about a "turtle" that was found so one of the supervisors said bring it over. It was a leopard tortoise & it turned out that one of the reptile dept. staff had lost one the year before from her private collection at home. She believed this one to be the lost one, so she took it home.

Although it does make sense to me that they would have a hard time in strange surroundings & I can believe that some would die, I still wonder if they really can't make it on their own if they are in their true natural habitat.

Pretty amazing to me that in the 2 stories tortoises out of their natural habitat made it. I would hope that those lost in their own habitat could make it.
I'm not advocating letting them loose on purpose but when they run away from home, are accidentally lost or something like that, I hate to think that there is no way they'll make it out there.
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PHRatz

I'm gonna have to agree w/ PHRatz here. I'm sure it isn't fun being moved from ones home territory, and it causes some stress. If a turtle is already weakened, that could be the final blow. But I also think it make sense that, if it is the correct habitat, the turtle will be able to find what it needs. Afterall, it managed to do that as a hatchling. As an adult, it is even more experienced at surviving.
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This isn't really a theory that's been floating around...

I recently attended an eastern box turtle conservation workshop, where this very topic was discussed (among others) and findings from ongoing research were presented.

The studies that have actually tracked translocated adults indicate that there is a less than optimal success rate with this technique. There is evidence that even the adults that actually stay in the immediate area where they have been re-released do not fare very well over time.

I don't have all of the figures at my fingertips, but the research that has been done shows a relatively high mortality rate for translocated adults, even when placed in habitat that appears to meet all the requirements for survival.

Box turtles spend a lifetime familiarizing themselves with their home territory: they know how and where to find what they need in their home range. When they're moved to a different area, the frame of reference is changed completely. We humans can simply consult a map, ask directions, buy our food at a market, and look for a 'vacancy', 'for rent', or 'for sale' sign when we relocate.

“.......I don't know if I can believe that they are not resilient animals who can't learn a new territory. Look at how many millions of years they've managed to survive."
" I read on the tortoise board that someone had lost a red footed tortoise a year ago in FL then it was found alive & well a couple of days ago.
At the zoo in Abilene TX they got a call one Sunday last year about a "turtle" that was found so one of the supervisors said bring it over. It was a leopard tortoise & it turned out that one of the reptile dept. staff had lost one the year before from her private collection at home. She believed this one to be the lost one, so she took it home.
Although it does make sense to me that they would have a hard time in strange surroundings & I can believe that some would die, I still wonder if they really can't make it on their own if they are in their true natural habitat."

Admittingly Box Turtles have been around along time. Fifteen million years give or take a thousand. In terms of evolutionary time; with respect to Box Turtles man has been around in about the time it takes one to sneeze. So we’re been here for an extremely short time... comparably. Yet as we enter the year 2006 man is currently overharvesting the worlds resources of animal and plant life. Our way of life imposes on the very existence of all other living species.

Box Turtles are not immune to man’s activities. If box Turtles survived for millions of years ; it was because MAN wasn’t around. No other species killed them in a multitude of ways. Pollution, habitat destruction, isolation of habitat, Predation, Collection ( pet trade), Killing by automobile ( intentional and unintentional), and RRT (Repatriation, Translocation and Relocation.... (Intentional and unintentional)
It has been shown via studies ( Dodd and Seigel 1991) (Belzer 1997) and in depth by Cook(1996) that due to a Box turtles homing instinct which develops over years and is very strong in adult boxies; cause misplaced boxies to wander aimlessly searching for their home range. Many feel forced to leave their new area that was so carefully selected by man for their survival. In doing so they are crossing roads which are hazardous, exposing themselves to predators, expending energy needed for survival, all resulting in very high mortality from stress and winter kill. Yet the goal was to move animals out of harm’s way. An honorable goal. If one were to consider moving very young boxies that have not established their homing instinct; results might / should be much more positive. The other aspect of RRT is that it might work if a great deal of surveillance were employed and preventing a boxie from leaving the new area selected.

I might note that a Redfoot Tortoise (Geochelone carbonaria) and a Box Turtle (Terrapene carolina) are two very different animals. Different species, and different evolutionary families. Boxies are strickly from North America; Redfoots are from South America. Their evolutionary, physiological and psychological makeup, as well as survival instincts became different over millions of years. If a Redfoot survived a certain situation it has no bearing on the outcome of a Box Turtle's survival.

For the above reasons I have to respectfully disagree.
Ric

I have to ask: what is the picture in your post of? I've never seen markings like that. It's beautiful!

Thanks... It's a Florida Box Turtle...T. carolina bauri
The smallest of our native box turtles, and the most rare of our native box turtles.

Ric

I've seen this photo on at least one other site. Did anyone ask your permission to use it? I don't know if you care, but someone may be "pic poaching". You should at least receive credit for these beauties!

Ken,

Thanks for the HEADS UP.

No one has asked permission to use my pics.. Email me if you remember the site.

Ric

>>Thanks... It's a Florida Box Turtle...T. carolina bauri
>>The smallest of our native box turtles, and the most rare of our native box turtles.

They are just beautiful. I've never seen any with marking like that & certainly never will where I live.
Thanks for posting the photo, it's a real treat!
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PHRatz

There's nothing to agree or disagree with because I am only pondering the question. Can they survive or can they not when taken from their home?
I thank everyone for the info posted because it's helpful to the pondering of the question.

The reason why I ponder this is because thanks to our tortoise bending the fence of the box turtle pen a year & a half ago one our girls escaped. I still spend my time beating the bushes and using binoculars, searching for her when the weather is right. She is lost in her natural habitat but in unfamiliar territory. I pray that she is able to survive, if not then I pray she will find her way home.
It nags at me that she is gone, especially since the neighbors found her, put her in my yard but didn't tell me. We didn't have the nice escape proof fence yet, so she walked under the one we had and was gone. I searched until dark that night, I'd seen her only 1 hour before she vanished. At 6AM the next morning I was tearing this place apart searching for her but it had rained, I couldn't find her. The only bright spot in the story is that by the time she left she'd already 100% recovered from her illness months before. It was her illness that put her in my hands in the first place.
It tears me up knowing the neighbors had her in their hands, put her in my yard but didn't want to "bother" me. If only they had...
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PHRatz

It began to lightning I had to turn off my computer earlier. Because it's raining I have been out searching for my girl this morning.
This is personal for me, and I know that my girl may not have made it but I'll always have hope that she did and that I'll see her again.
I find it difficult to believe that all box turtles who've found themselves in a new area would all die because I see how quickly those in my care are able to learn.
Although I don't doubt that a study has shown that some have searched aimlessly for their homes in a new area and have not fared well when moved, I just find it hard to believe that no box turtles could ever learn to live on their own in a new environment when forced to, especially if the new environment is in their natural habitat.
Maybe this is partly due to the fact that I worry so much over my lost one but my mixed feelings are also based on my seeing how tough Hobo the wild boy is, and how he seems to adjust to new situations so well.
I'm not arguing anything.. just thinking out loud & enjoying other people's opinions on this subject.
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PHRatz

"Although I don't doubt that a study has shown that some have searched aimlessly for their homes in a new area and have not fared well when moved, I just find it hard to believe that no box turtles could ever learn to live on their own in a new environment when forced to, especially if the new environment is in their natural habitat."

I just want to point out a couple of things in an effort to clarify:

There have been several studies done on this subject, not just one, where turtles have been fitted with transmitters and monitored for years at a time. These studies have shown that few turtles remain in the vicinity of the release site for very long: even turtles that appear to have 'settled down' for a few years will move out suddenly, and for no apparent reason.
Does this prove that ALL turtles die if relocated? No. But because the success rate is comparatively low, most researchers have concluded that translocation is not a viable longterm solution. As you well know from experience, turtles will not necessarily stay if given the opportunity to leave. Otherwise, why would any of us construct enclosures for our turtles?

Another point I'd like to make is that, once a turtle is moved from its home range, it is no longer truly in its 'natural habitat', even though the new location may have many of the features of the old.

I don't doubt that there may indeed be success stories out there, but given what we do know, it probably doesn't happen as often as we hope.

We are all stating our opinions here and reasons for having them. I admire your strong commitment to Box Turtles. I just feel there is more here than just theory and speculation.

I was not stating, nor is the documentation that all boxies relocated will perish. Some do make it as was proven in the trials; however knowing which ones will make it beforehand is a flip of the coin. The percentages of survival are low. A boxie leaving a captive enclosure is not akin to a wild boxie leaving it's home range. Captive boxies may not have developed a home range; so we have to hope that your boxie is faring well. I always enjoy your opinions.

Ric

I lost my ornate and found him months later under the firewood pile in our backyard.He was well fattened up probably from all of the slugs there and looked content to spend his entire life in the area.I don't believe captive bred turtles ever develop a true homing instinct.If so wouldn't my yearling be trying to get back to South Carolina ? However,in the wild sea turtles will home in on thier place of birth thousands of miles away.How they do it is a combination of sun-compass orientation, olfaction, and spatial memory maps.Any wild turtle released away from it's home range will try to return,often times crossing highways and ending up as roadkill.It is best to leave a wild turtle where you found it.

".I don't believe captive bred turtles ever develop a true homing instinct.If so wouldn't my yearling be trying to get back to South Carolina ?"

* I have strong reservations regarding homing instincts in captive bred boxies as previously stated in my last post. I wish I had more information to support these theories.

However your situation as stated above can't be conclusive evidence either way as it takes 3-5 years for boxies to develop a homing instinct....And your boxie is only a yearling.

Your thoughts are appreciated,
Ric

I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. The one I'm missing is one who's history I don't know. I don't know if she'd been born in this woman's backyard or if she's been taken from the wild, all I know is that when she got sick she was taken to the vet I used at the time.
She needed surgery for her abscessed ears, medications, & rehab. The woman told the vet she wasn't going to waste her money on just a turtle & said she'd take the turtle home & run her over with the car.
The vet said NO! He called me & said that if I would take the turtle to care for, he would do the treatment, if I could not take her then the turtle would be euthanized.
He did not want to euthanize this turtle but he didn't have the time to care for her once the surgery & other treatment was done. That's how I got this turtle.
She'd been recovered for over a year by the time she was lost.

On the one hand I see how intelligent they are, I see how well they can adjust to new situations but on the other hand.. I have Charity the large 1&1/2lb turtle who was found with nail polish on her.
When the neighborhood kids found her & brought her to me, she seemed as if she had no idea how to find food for herself. In her first 3 months here she ate like she was absolutely starving to death.

Her story goes along with the studies that show that they aren't able to adjust when placed in an unfamiliar environment. I really don't believe she would've made it out there on her own.

I want my lost one to be alive & I want to find her but sadly I do understand that there is a good chance she didn't make it.
It's alway possible that someone else picked her up & kept her, I can hope for that.

What's even worse than the next door neighbors having her & not telling me is that we'd already planned to build the new fence. If she'd just hung on a little longer she would've had more room to roam at will, but still be protected.
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PHRatz