Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The following is an email from Wayne Hill,
The State of Florida is about to pass a bill that would require a $100 permit, a $1,000 bond, inspection of facilities, and the risk of prosecution as a felony, if you are grossly negligent and let your reptile of concern escape, this is to keep and display reptiles of concern. We were talking about Burmese and the other big 4 pythons originally but it was left open ended in the final draft to any reptile that Fish & Wildlife decides.
If the Fish & Wildlife stick to the big 5 this means that no retail baby Burmese, retics,ect will be sold in Fla. If the Fish & Wildlife decides to list all pythons then the industry is on the way out in Florida. The (Daytona) Expo will have to move out of Fla.
If you do business in Florida this is your concern! I am asking everyone, from Fla or not, to call Senator Paula Dockery Mon morning starting at 8 o'clock to oppose this bill, Senate bill # 990. Her office # is 850 487 5040. I am sure you will be told by some aid that this is a Fla bill and not your concern, but let them know that you do business in Fla and buy permits from Florida Fish & Wildlife every year.This is your concern!
Wayne Hill

I just called this morning and spoke to someone, they are answering the phone and are listening to concerns that people have. I for one mentioned my primary concerns being the law left open ended (meaning that F&W has the option to add any species they want, virtually at any time,) the fact that I firmly believe that the law is impossible to enforce and will in the end complicate the problem 10 fold as individuals who refuse to pay the fees in turn release their animals. The bill does not address dwarf species, thus including them in permiting proccess. PLEASE speak professionally and be courtoise at all times. Do not simply point at problems, but point out realistic solutions to the problem. ie. YEAR round drop off points for people to leave animals that have become to much to handle and/or less expensive permitting fee's.

Thank You Neil Golli, CALL TODAY, TOMORROW IS TO LATE!!!

As much as I hate to say this, I find myself in agreement with the bill and as much as I enjoy working with large species of constrictors (at the wildlife center where I serve as Curator), the large numbers of burms and other constrictors now breeding in the wild is quite alarming for Florida's already fragile wilderness. Although leaving the bill a bit open ended may cause some concern, I have confidence that the Florida Fish and Game is not looking at putting additional bans on keeping/selling herps but rather trying to curtail the continued selling of large constrictors that typically make poor captives for the average person, and, pose the largest risks to the various ecosystems of this region. Heck, Florida is one of the few states where common sense prevails for the private keeper; the venomous permit system is an excellent case in point and should be the model of other states to follow in matters concerning private rights to own venomous herps (which I fully support). Although the permit fees are a little high, I am a firm proponent for a fee system as long as the fees are being used to cover direct costs of administering the system. As much as I support the private keeping of burms (and this bill does provide a vehicle to do so), I don't support the rampant selling of baby "giant" constrictors at the cost of endangering the fragile Florida Everglades...we already have too many invasive species (and far too many burms and other large constrictors that become abandoned as pets).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>The following is an email from Wayne Hill,
>>The State of Florida is about to pass a bill that would require a $100 permit, a $1,000 bond, inspection of facilities, and the risk of prosecution as a felony, if you are grossly negligent and let your reptile of concern escape, this is to keep and display reptiles of concern. We were talking about Burmese and the other big 4 pythons originally but it was left open ended in the final draft to any reptile that Fish & Wildlife decides.
>>If the Fish & Wildlife stick to the big 5 this means that no retail baby Burmese, retics,ect will be sold in Fla. If the Fish & Wildlife decides to list all pythons then the industry is on the way out in Florida. The (Daytona) Expo will have to move out of Fla.
>>If you do business in Florida this is your concern! I am asking everyone, from Fla or not, to call Senator Paula Dockery Mon morning starting at 8 o'clock to oppose this bill, Senate bill # 990. Her office # is 850 487 5040. I am sure you will be told by some aid that this is a Fla bill and not your concern, but let them know that you do business in Fla and buy permits from Florida Fish & Wildlife every year.This is your concern!
>>Wayne Hill
>>
>>I just called this morning and spoke to someone, they are answering the phone and are listening to concerns that people have. I for one mentioned my primary concerns being the law left open ended (meaning that F&W has the option to add any species they want, virtually at any time,) the fact that I firmly believe that the law is impossible to enforce and will in the end complicate the problem 10 fold as individuals who refuse to pay the fees in turn release their animals. The bill does not address dwarf species, thus including them in permiting proccess. PLEASE speak professionally and be courtoise at all times. Do not simply point at problems, but point out realistic solutions to the problem. ie. YEAR round drop off points for people to leave animals that have become to much to handle and/or less expensive permitting fee's.
>>
>>Thank You Neil Golli, CALL TODAY, TOMORROW IS TO LATE!!!
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

While I do tend to lean your way in regards to large species as well and thus why I don't sell (or vary rarely) them from the stand point of someone who has watched this fairly closely, I can tell that this bill has changes numerous times in the last few months as I have many copies of it. These copies include the numerous "scratch off or Lined threw changes) that have been made. Further the concept of having to transport a baby burm in a wooden crate (in the exact same manner as a venomous) is ridiculous. I will also produce dwarfs this year, under this current bill I see these animals as being placed under the permit requirements as well. Why should a 5.5 ft burm or retic be placed under such scrutiny?

There are many many problems in Florida and these issues need to be addressed however unenforceable legislation is not the place to start. Drop off locations, reasonable permit fee's and education are whats required not this meaningless bill.

I hate to sound appathetic, but this is the way of the present and future of life in America. Sure I will make calls and send emails and voice my firm opposition but it won't change anything. They (the lawmakers) will continue to pass oppressive laws and take away more freedoms and rights until we have none at all. But will it change anything? No. There are thousands of laws that make no difference. They passed laws concerning cigerettes and minors but I assure you that every minor that wants to smoke it still smokin away daily. During the 20's they passed Prohibition. The black marketeers moved in and supplied alcohol and everyone that wanted to drink still drank. They pass anti-gun laws that make it harder to own weapons legitimately but criminals always seem to be able to get armed somehow. They passed many tough anti-drug laws but everyone that wants to get themselves loaded up is out there doing it. So ultimately this won't change anything. Sure it's sad and I am adamantly against it, but I am realistic too. Anyone that wants to keep a giant snake badly enough will find someone willing to sell them one and they'll have one and that's just that. Laws or no laws. Fines or no fines. Permits or no permits. And the worst thing of all is that their laws will really do nothing to help the conditions of the Everglades. It just makes things harder on good honest herpers.
Our Website

-----
David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

harder for honest vendors and keepers.

You are correct about harder for the honest herper who is obviously very interested in the hobby but...it will also be harder for little Johnny as his mom won't want to fork out the cash just so to curb his appetite for a more than likely passing phase that she'll have to deal with in just a few years (Or months once they realize what's involved).

I agree with what you all are saying, but the fact is this....people are afraid of large serpents and therefore think everyone else should be as well. That hurts! Now add those that do not deserve to breathe the same air as others...you know, those that release their pets into into the wild because they are irresponsible, or those who purchase for or sell cigarette's to minors, or those that obtain guns ilegally and commit crimes with them, and my personal favorite, those nasty, disgusting, inconsiderate smokers who think you should breathe their smoke, then throw the butts on the ground.

Face it, we are doomed by our own people because their parents forgot to teach them how to act. They will not stop what they do and therefore the people we have elected are faced with figuring out a way to stop them. Now the minute someone tries, it's a rights violation and everyone riots and destroys their own neighborhood because somehow this is supposed to make things better. A never ending process and vicious circle. It seems like all this does is give people on both sides something to occupy their time until we all die. And those of you who sit by and do nothing because it is none of your business, you are just as much at fault. But you know what, that's life!

Anyone want to go out for some sushi?
-----
DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

was pulled after we started talking of how this would be enforced going with the kids and cigarettes and if kids wanted to buy them would get them. Agreed on the same deal on snakes. On the pit bull, in other parts of the country and involving snake/exotics : city and township laws as well as some state laws don't necessarily pass a law on just the pit bull but the ban of any " inherently " dangerous animal including the American Pit Bull, Stafford Shire and a mix of breeds of such. That has been the crux of many people trying to get away with the keeping of these breeds thinking they would be " legal " if they were mixed. Unfortunately, it has blanket other species such as Rotties, Dobermans and i hear even in some places German Shepards. So with that in thought and back to reptile bans and or permit with fees, open door syndrome to if not at present passed, it can be added later and where will it stop ! Wichita Kansas bans reptiles in city limits. Lawrence Kansas banned iguanas. States are banning venomous with NO policy of permits to keep. My 02 cents and years of seeing laws proposed and passed.........
-----
I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

For as long as I can remember laws passed only limit and restrict the people more, they never give us more freedoms. Only fewer, and less. I guess oppression in government is just automatic and inevitable and a part of the "control" factor in the evolution of "civilized societies".

Like Ancient Rome.

Enough said.
Our Website

-----
David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Posted by: mchambers at Wed Apr 19 11:11:34 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

was pulled after we started talking of how this would be enforced going with the kids and cigarettes and if kids wanted to buy them would get them. Agreed on the same deal on snakes. On the pit bull, in other parts of the country and involving snake/exotics : city and township laws as well as some state laws don't necessarily pass a law on just the pit bull but the ban of any " inherently " dangerous animal including the American Pit Bull, Stafford Shire and a mix of breeds of such. That has been the crux of many people trying to get away with the keeping of these breeds thinking they would be " legal " if they were mixed. Unfortunately, it has blanket other species such as Rotties, Dobermans and i hear even in some places German Shepards. So with that in thought and back to reptile bans and or permit with fees, open door syndrome to if not at present passed, it can be added later and where will it stop ! Wichita Kansas bans reptiles in city limits. Lawrence Kansas banned iguanas. States are banning venomous with NO policy of permits to keep. My 02 cents and years of seeing laws proposed and passed.........
-----

Lol I was reading it to since I saw the show than next day it was gone . They pull threads faster than North Korean Censors and that wasnt a bad thread .

As a libertarian, I am generally against new laws restricting ANY freedoms unless I am pretty sure they will work, and it is something that can't be dealt with in the private sector. Everything you said is right on - most of the restrictive laws are passed as "feel good" solutions so voters will think SOMETHING - anything! - is being done, and the politicians might not lose their jobs at election time.

Anytime anything is sensationalized, then you can expect some "feel good" legislation to be passed. It won't do a lot to solve the problem, but it will sound good to the voters.

In reality, I would not have a real problem with restrictions on the giant snakes - I have been totally disgusted seeing kids buying baby African Rocks for $25 at Florida shows. However, biologists could make a reasonable case that almost any non native plant or animals (including feral dogs and cats, for sure!) could be a hazard to our ecosystem. Not as dangerous as what humans are already doing to it, but much easier to regulate than development. So the battle will be the decision of what species constitute enough threat to the ecosystem to justify losing our rights to keep them without paying $100 per year to do it. Obviously, cats and dogs won't be banned no matter what threat they pose. What about small, harmless snakes and lizards? Not dangerous to people, but to wildlife if naturalized here? If all possible invasive species eventually need a $100 permit, then the kids coming up in the hobby will either not get into the hobby in the first place, or will become criminals at a very young age in order to enjoy the freedom we have always taken for granted.

I don't have any great hopes for our freedoms on any front as the government grabs them with the blessing of the masses to fight terrorism, drugs, smoking, scary pets, maybe junk food, etc., on our behalf. But I sometimes worry more about the enforcers than I do about the possible threats they protect us from.

As they say, "it's just the way it is". Hopefully, our freedoms won't all be gone during my lifetime. The youngsters will grow up not knowing what they missed, so won't miss it.

The laws of God, the laws of man,
He may keep that will and can;
Not I: let God and man decree
Laws for themselves and not for me;
And if my ways are not as theirs,
Let them mind their own affairs.

A. E. Housman

Rob I toyally agree with your response. I am going to school to become a land steward, hopefully in the Florida area. These non-native species pose a real threat to Florida's ecosystem. The caiman population is out of control. I think fish and wildlife is trying to correct the problem. Even if their was a year round drop off for these animals no one would keep all of them. A majority would be euthanized. Maybe now if people have to buy a permit they'll know what their getting into and be more responsible owners. By the way I really enjoyed reading about the work you do in Illinois. Good luck on the show.

1) It's actually the House Agriculture & Environment Appropriations committee that votes on it today. The sanate committee votes tomorrow.
2) At the same time as this bill adds "regulated reptiles" to the bond requirement, it also raises the amount of the bond from $1000 to $10,000.

The bond change will make it too expensive for a lot of small refuges like ours to keep venomous or large constrictors on display...

IE. part of the problem, I've seen the bond number go from $1,000 to $10,000 and my last copy states it back at $1,000.

Where did you get that copy? I'm looking at the Florida House and Senate web sites and the only official change I see posted since the original version was to change the penalty for releasing a regulated reptile from a felony to a misdemeanor. The $10,000 bond is in all versions in both houses.

I'm hoping boas won't be included, but I am concerned.

Pitbulls are illegal here in Miami, but I see them all over the place. I'm not sure how effectively this can be enforced.

Either way I rent right now, so I will have to deal with this
right away...

Posted by: tcdrover at Tue Apr 18 11:57:38 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I'm hoping boas won't be included, but I am concerned.

Pitbulls are illegal here in Miami, but I see them all over the place. I'm not sure how effectively this can be enforced.

Either way I rent right now, so I will have to deal with this
right away...

If you call the local anaimal sheleter about any residence with a pitbull they come over and look into it will fine the person remove the dog.
However you might be seeing American Bulldogs which can look like pits but even those if slightly resemble pits can be taken away . I dont think the pit law is all over Miami just few areas.
I to am buying a house in few months in Miami wanted a few of the dwarf retics but think now thats history as not going to re-new a permit every year to give the gvmt more of my money not to mention think they can come to your house unanounced to check on things.
which makes sense but thats not for me.

I would like to respond to this forum in regard to Fl. bill #990 pending in the Florida Legislature regarding liscensing of large boids and monitors. First, Fl. has many species of introduced wildlife. The wild feral pig brought over by the Spanish in the 16th century was a harbinger of things to come. Florida having a subtropical climate and many diverse habitat types is favorable to many species of alien animals. Currently here in Miami there are many exotic species of anoles, ameivas, curlytail lizards, geckos, basilisk lizards, and Green Iguanas. Green Iguanas are extremely abundant almost anyplace in Miami where there is water. Now of course, The Everglades contain a viable population of Burmese Pythons. This is sensational! The idea of having a giant snake that reaches 20' in length and eats pet dogs and cats is newsworthy. The adverse publicity generated is international in scope. The type of publicity that this has generated demands action to be taken on a state level. Throughout this progress the Herp Industry has had representatives at all the meetings. Frankly in light of the sensational and adverse publicity I think it is a very good bill and we can't hope for anything better. I have been in close contact with several representatives of our Industry throughout the entire process and I gave input whenever I felt it was appropriate. Certainly I don't like more and more stringent regulations promulgated to restrict what people may buy or sell. Unfortunately the circumstances demand that something be done and this bill is a fair and just response. Fl. Fish and Wildlife have always been good stewards of Florida's native and exotic wildlife. I think that as a whole the Game Commission has dealt with our Industry in a fair and reasonable manner. The bottom line is that a law IS going to be promulgated and some bill WILL be passed to regulate some of these species. This bill is a reasonable one that we all can live with and I encourage your support.
Tom Crutchfield

Being a F & W major, and a fan of the herps, I find myself torn with the issue at hand. In one hand I agree with the restrictions placed on the large snakes. Florida is unique, in that its environment suits many of these foreign animals. However, just because they can survive in the wild doesn't make it kosher. If they were suppposed to be there, then they'd be there without human intervention. I realize that many hobbyists realize what they are getting themselves into when they purchase one of the "Big 5". Unfortunately, having knowledge of the animal is not a prerequisite when taking in one of these snakes. This conundrum was created by negligence, and now persistent education, and (gulp) stricter regulations are required.

I cannot believe what I am reading. I understand the balance of the Everglades and that it lies on the brink of extinction during every election year. What I find most amazing is that we, as in - the people, are spending money to make honest breeders and keepers register their animals. The truth is, that those whom would willingly pay for a permit would never think of letting their snakes go in the first place. They are spending, dare I say, millions making policy, that the HONEST are going to pay for.

If you want some interesting reading, research the effects of the Cuban owned Sugar plantation/factories that pump their cooling water back into the everglades. We, again - the people, have decided to go after a few hundred breeders and keepers of large boids instead of taking care of three "Big Sugar" monopolies that we, again - the people, pay subsidies to, so that sugar remains $.86 per pound. All while they poison and heat the largest wetland ecosystem in the United States. Interesting....

Posted by: tomsiegrist at Wed Apr 19 21:50:34 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I cannot believe what I am reading. I understand the balance of the Everglades and that it lies on the brink of extinction during every election year. What I find most amazing is that we, as in - the people, are spending money to make honest breeders and keepers register their animals. The truth is, that those whom would willingly pay for a permit would never think of letting their snakes go in the first place. They are spending, dare I say, millions making policy, that the HONEST are going to pay for.

If you want some interesting reading, research the effects of the Cuban owned Sugar plantation/factories that pump their cooling water back into the everglades. We, again - the people, have decided to go after a few hundred breeders and keepers of large boids instead of taking care of three "Big Sugar" monopolies that we, again - the people, pay subsidies to, so that sugar remains $.86 per pound. All while they poison and heat the largest wetland ecosystem in the United States. Interesting....

Yes but you have to keep in mind thats big business . Its "Middle" America that always pays somehow .

Why would you say CUBAN owned? What does that have to do with anything? I am sure that if the Governmant of Cuba owned anything that made money in the US the crazy cuban politicians in miami would be all over it? I agree the sugar plantations cause problems but you sound a little racist to be making any remarks on a board or discussion such as this...yes I am cuban decent as well as Anglo American decent.
-----
Michael Enriquez

For anyone interested this is the address where you can view an actual copy of Florida bill 990

http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&SubMenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&BillNum=990&Year=2006&Chamber=Senate

Posted by: phelsuma at Wed Apr 19 22:35:07 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

For anyone interested this is the address where you can view an actual copy of Florida bill 990

http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&SubMenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&BillNum=990&Year=2006&Chamber=Senate

Thanks for the link I live in Miami wanted to see what snakes they put in the bill. I dont see any particular types of snakes listed .
I have a king and corn wanted to see if I needed a permit.

Burmese Python, Reticulated Python, African Rock Python, Amethystine Python, Anaconda and Nile Monitors are on the list so far.
This is the link to the newest version of the bill currently in the house being sponsored by Rep Poppell.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?mode=Bills&Submenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&Billnum=1459&Year=2006

You actually need to read through Bill 990 and all the information there and the included links to see the current list of animals the link is
http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&SubMenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&BillNum=990&Year=2006&Chamber=Senate
Further, the way I understand it unless the information has been stricken through it still exists as part of the bill. And that original info includes verbals that also mentioned ball pythons and boids, and non native species. We need to be concerned about the open endedness of this. If they are going to put such a bill in effect, we all need to know exactly what is included now and forever.
You can also read about the committee who's input has helped in the creation of this bill. The committee is known as CWTAG their web address is:
http://myfwc.com/captive/captivewildlifeTAG.html

Pay special attention as to who is speaking for us. I invite everyone to participate in that dialogue.

As of today my newest info per FWC is that they are also looking at additional monitors, and boa constrictors. They stated that anything that can reach 12' or over is being looked at. The House bill gives an action date of July 2006. FWC states new date to be Oct 2006. Per the FWC, they state they(FWC) are the best source of information at this date as to what is happening. My personal take is that anything that is non native to Florida will be included at some point if something is not said. By not taking a stand and voicing your opinions your rights will be taken away.
The Senate sponsor of Bill 990 is Senator Posey
The House sponsor of the Bill which is called hb1459 is Rep. Poppell
The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Legal Affairs Dept. is where to find additional information and who should know the most current information their main number is listed in the front cover of the BellSouth White pages. Their website is
http://myfwc.com/

Posted by: phelsuma at Fri Apr 21 23:57:29 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Burmese Python, Reticulated Python, African Rock Python, Amethystine Python, Anaconda and Nile Monitors are on the list so far.
This is the link to the newest version of the bill currently in the house being sponsored by Rep Poppell.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?mode=Bills&Submenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&Billnum=1459&Year=2006

You actually need to read through Bill 990 and all the information there and the included links to see the current list of animals the link is
http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&SubMenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&BillNum=990&Year=2006&Chamber=Senate

Thanks for the info. Yes I imagine in time all non native animals will be listed and permits required .
Somehow I dont think anything will be done about the thousands and thousands of feral cats .

First off I would like to state that laws are put in place to hurt the honest consumer! Ones who do not have or acquire permits will raise these snakes and let them go anyways.
I am totally against any new bill being past in any state for large pythons (take New York for instance) everyone there has one of the big 5 and monitors which are also illegal in this state, people do not care, the only ones being hurt are the honest ones!
The original (wild nonnative species of Florida) where also set loose by the numerous hurricanes, but no one has seem to mention that. You guys think the Burmese python is bad slithering around? Please: what about the lions, tigers, monkeys, and numerous other nonnative species roaming the state of Florida because a hurricane ripped down their enclosures and set them free???
Burms are not a major problem in the state but the media as any reptile enthusiast knows over plays every story they can find on reptiles to make the industry as a whole look bad.
The original article for this bill made great sense; open up shelters or individuals that will come pick these snakes up once they get to big, no questions asked.
PROBLEM SOLVED…
You guys will be feeding right into there hands if you voted yes on this bill!
No one seems to look at the overall picture.