Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I purchased a LARGE tadpole toward the end of February. He recently (he's still a he, although I should be able to tell soon if he's really a she) morphed, and just this weekend absorbed almost all of his tail.

I've been keeping him in my aquarium, I took the water level down when he got legs and placed a floating dock in there so he could get out of the water when he was ready. He hangs out mostly on the dock now.

I want to make sure he has a proper home. I've read in a couple of posts that they can bash their heads in if kept in a glass tank due to their skittish natures. My little guy doesn't seem to be skittish- he doesn't flinch if I put my hand in the tank to move stuff around, even right next to him (I even touched his tail a couple of days ago and he didn't care).

I worry about putting him in a pond in the back yard- I don't want to introduce a non-native species. I live in Los Angeles. I have limited space, my husband and I live in a 860 sq. ft. duplex, so I don't really have room for a LARGE tank.

If I can't properly house him, I would like to find him a home so he can have a happy and healthy life.

Suggestions please!!

bullfrogs need at least a 20 long, but a 30/40 breeder would be the best, which are not big tanks. if your frog isn't skiddish i wouldnt worry about the glass thing, just have lots of hiding spots and such. if you don't want to do this i may be able to take him/her. i currently have a albono tad and they are going to go in a 80 gallon when older, so depending on where you live...

Thank you!

I would love to keep her, but am not opposed to giving her up if I can't provide a good home (I live in LA). She got out of her current tank last night. My husband found her in the kitchen at 2a. That's when I had to get up and rescue them both! He was surprised b/c she doesn't even flinch when I approach her. She obviously knows where the food comes from!

I will give your suggestions a try. Thanks again.

S.

what size tank do you have her in now? is is great she's so calm, i used to have one and you would look at it and it would freak. as i said a 20L is min and a 30 or 40 would be bullfrog heaven. didn't know if you knew this but they need UVB/UVA rays so a reprisun 5.0 or 10.0 or a uva/uvb producing flood bulb would work. my frog excaped too, my dad found it in the kitchen and another time i almost stepped on it. good luck and tell me how everything goes!

Well, little Fiona is in a new tank. She is not very happy with me though. She won't even look at me! I made sure there were plenty of places for her to hide, and she is making good use of them! I hope she will settle back down when she gets used to her new home.

If she gets natural light, will that be suffient for her UV exposure? What temperature should I keep in the enclosure?

Otis07, I've been so concerned about her well-being, I really appreciate your guidance. I really want to keep her- she's my baby!

sounds like a neat enclosure. for natural light it is good as long as it is outside, the sun's benificial rays do not go though glass or any solid material. the light part does but it acts as a filter of the rays your frog needs. your frog sounds so cute!!! just put something heavy on the top if you are worried about excape. good luck and feel free to ask more questions

woops, the temperature should be at least 72 in the water, i keep mine around 76. the ambient temperature should be 70-85. there should be a temp. gradient, a cool side and a warmer side, even if it's only a difference of 5F.

Actually if you are supplying them with D3 through the dusting of food items, then they do not need any UVB supplementation at all.

Ed

actually they do, their main source is from the light, not the vitimans. the amount of D3 in the powders in not nearly enough for what they need, it will add if your light doesn't provide a lot, but never as the main source.

Can you support your statement?

According to the literature, the dietary requirements of D3 fall well within the parameters determined for domestic animals, the frogs readily absorb D3 through the intestional tract as long as you are not oversupplementing vitamin A or E (which compete for uptake with D3 which is why the ratio of A to D3 to E should be as close to 10 to 1 to 0.1 as possible).

I am presenting a workshop on Amphibian Nutrition, what we do and what we don't know at IAD (see http://www.intlamphibday.org/IAD2004events.asp) at 10:30 in the morning...

Ed

i am just going by what i have heard from numerous articles, care sheets and books about the intake of D3 in contex to lighting. they have always said that lighting should the main source of D3... what if somebody is oversupplementing with A and E, then what? is the same with reptiles? you may be right, but i just haven't ever heard of this theory before and i garentee you a lot of other people haven't either. have YOU tested it and what kind of lighting do YOU use for your herps. what about all the other effect of the light; color, breeding, energy level... do the supplements give them benifits of the above mentioned. i'm not trying to offend you be argueing, just think of it as a debate

snip "am just going by what i have heard from numerous articles, care sheets and books about the intake of D3 in contex to lighting. they have always said that lighting should the main source of D3..."emdsnip

At this time, UVB supplementation should be viewed as the backup method to ensure that the animal is getting sufficient D3 in the diet as opposed to being the primary method of D3 supplementation in most animals. (There are some examples where this isn't practical or possible such as with Khansi spray toad metamorphs). The use of the bulbs as the sole source is problematic as
1) depending on the UV meter used to detect the UVB production, there can be significant variations in the actual production of the bulb due to background intereference (see Gehrmann, W.H.; Horner, J.D.; Ferguson, G.W.; Chen, T.C.; Holick, M.F.; 2004; A comparision of responses by three broadband radiometers to different ultraviolet-B sources.
2) the bulb should have a UVB peak as close to 295 nm as possible (see above article) as this is a peak which the most efficient conversion rate of provitamin D to D3 occurs. Most bulbs are read with a broadband radiometer which will have insufficient resolution to determine if the bulbs are the most efficient.
3) the bulbs have to be within 12-18 inches of the animal to be effective. The presence of screens, glass or plastic between the bulb and the animal reduces the amount of UVB (down to zero) in some cases.

snip "what if somebody is oversupplementing with A and E, then what? is the same with reptiles? you may be right, but i just haven't ever heard of this theory before and i garentee you a lot of other people haven't either." endsnip

If you are oversupplmenting with vitamin A then you are getting a form of MBD caused nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism which for a long time was one of the most common forms of MBD seen in herps. This has been significantly reduced through the use of supplements that are contain betacarotente as the source of vitamin A. This is well documented in the literature since the 1980s.
The oversupplementation of E has not been documented to date but it is a theoretical possibility if someone begins to craft thier own supplements are are not aware of the ramifications.

snip " have YOU tested it and what kind of lighting do YOU use for your herps. what about all the other effect of the light; color, breeding, energy level... do the supplements give them benifits of the above mentioned." endsnip

I do not have to test the lighting as I review the independent third party analysis and studies (such as the one listed above). For a beginning review of the nutritional data I refer you the Nutrition Chapter and bibliography in both the first and second editions of Reptile Medicine and Surgery, the relevent chapters in Amphibian Medicine and Husbandry, various publications in Zoo Biology etc.....
In many amphibians, color is partly dependent on carotenoids that are stored in special pigment cells in the skin (chromatophores). These pigments are required in the diet and are supplied via the supplements........

In some herps such as chameleons the use of UVB and UVA is beneficial in stimulating reproduction, but this to date has been restricted mainly to one genera.
As for energy, this isn't related to UVB but to UVA as in many herps, the ability to see into the UVA for feeding (insects often reflect in UVA, territorial displays (Anolis throat flashing, urate depositions (Desert Iguanas)).

Supplements enable the animals to better metabolize the food items consumed in the diet and this can also have a bearing on the diet.

Ed

ok, i didn't exactly understand all of it, but thats interesting. still going to use bulbs for my stuff, but good to know.

There are two thoughts on the size of the tank. Larger tanks can provide the feeling of security for the frog however, the larger tank size allows the frog to build up sufficient force when startled to do significant damage to itself when it hits the wall. This can kill the frog.

Smaller cages are harder to keep clean but they do not allow the frog to reach the same amount of force when startled.

Ed

both good points, probally something in the middle.

Im glad Im not the only one who keeps bullfrogs =). I currently have a female albino (amelanistic) in a 55gallon tank. I keep the water level at between 11 and 13 inches and filter it with a fluval 204 canister and a turtle 501 by zoomed. I have a floating turtle dock with suction cups to keep it in place along with about 40 Elodea Densa floating freely in a mat which she hides in when she is "hunting." For room mates she has two feeder goldfish and an albino mystery snail. The fish were to help in cycling the tank so no toxic spikes killed my fish before the filters were biologically active and to serve as a food source. However they have been with her since the first week or two of october 2005 and she has yet to eat them. I have no substrate in the tank. The lights are something like flora glo or something like that, which is basically like a reptiglo 5.0 by exo terra. By june i plan on starting work on a 75 gallon which will have a small land section that takes up about 20-25% of the tank, then a slope from water level to the substrate that takes up about 25-30% of the tank, then the rest will be around 14 inches of water planted heavily with:
Vallisneria Sp. (Eel Grass)
Echinodorus Tenellus (Pygmy chain sword)
Microsorium Pteropus (Java fern)
Vesicularia Dubyana (Java moss)
Lemna Minor (Duck weed)
Pistia Stratiotes (water lettuce)

Vallisneria Sp. starting where the slope ends and covering the back half of the tank as well as the side of the tank on the deep end.
Echinodorus Tenellus starting where the slope ends and covering the front half of the tank.
Microsorium Pterop growing on a piece of drift wood which will be used to hold part of the slope up in about 6 inches of water
Vesicularia Dubyana growing on larger rocks holding up the slope and if I it is humid enough growing on the land section on rocks.
Lemna Minor floating around the tank, I will keep it pretty well thinned out, but I think it adds a nice touch.
Pistia Stratiotes floating around the deep end, like maybe 4 or 5 smaller ones.

Growing on the land section I will have some Liriope Spicata, which is a bog type plant that looks like a grass and forms into little "tufts" that arch over and provide nice hiding spots for a frog.

Also in the water I will have that albino mystery snail along with green swordtails, albino swordtails, cobra guppies, albino guppies and some kind of loach, like maybe Labeo bicolor (?). The dense plantings should keep the fish populations from going bye bye and will provide stimulation for the frog (by allowing it to hunt instead of stare off into space).

It will be filtered by two fluval 204 canister filters, with the intakes in the deep end behind the vallisneria and the spray bars under the land section.

To set up the land and slope in the tank I will build a terraced "false bottem" out of the plastic egg crateing from home depot which will be held togeather with plastic zip ties and will be just one inch narrower than the tank (so I can hide it without painting the tank black where the slope is). The terraces will corrispond with the rocks and driftwood that I choose so everything is stable. It will be about 3-4 inches shorter than I plan to make the land section so I can lay down the spray bars and flat rock and larger rocks to hold the shape of the land section which will have pea gravel poured in around them. Since the false bottem is 1 inch narrower than the tank and 3-4 inches shorter than the end result land section, I can completly cover it with rock and gravel and fill in between it and the front of the tank with gravel so no one will even know its there. The water section will have 2 inches of flourite covered with 1 inch of pea gravel. That way it will look the way I want (the substrate) while still providing a great medium for the plants to grow in. I also have half a stump of drift wood which will be on the land section to hide the plumbing going under the false bottem. The flow from the spray bars will be less of a current than if I were to just set the end of the hose in the false bottem and will hopefully keep the waters surface pretty placid, like a pond.

To set it up I would have to build the false bottem, fill in with rocks and gravel, pour in water, plant plants, cycle tank and add fish, then after everything is balanced and the plants have a good root system I will add the frog from her 55gallon to her new naturalistic setup.

The picture Ive attached is a little outdated from my newest idea, but it should give you a general idea. Just replace the Acorus with Liriope, the Elodea with more vallisneria, and the Echinodorus Barthii with yet more vallisneria and youll see my newest idea. Also spread the Echinodorus Tenellus all the way across the front half, not just in that little "L" shape. Like I said, that pic is old...

My post where I came to this Idea...

wow, lucky frog! the one i have surrently is an albino tad. he's about 4 in long and in a 10 gallon with tons of plants. i have about 100 snails too, in the begenning there was like two that came with the plants and 4 months later... 100+ in a ten gallon. did you get yours as a tadpole? right now he's eating dead plants, tad food, and fish food, any suggestions. i've tried algea wafers but they just made the water couldy. when he's older i'm putting him in a 150-250 gallon tank with my water dragon (presently 1'.) i know somebody who mixed them and it worked. one question though, how deep would you say the water should be for a chinese water dragon and a bullfrog (both ful grown)? i was thinking 6 in maybe, maybe less. thanks.

I bought my frog as an adult last october. The pet store had her in a 2.5 gallon with about a half an inch of water. Plus I dont think they know how much bullfrogs really eat... So I decided that I needed a yellow frog and bought her I wouldnt recomend mixing them becauseI dont know anything about water dragons sorry. But if you do mix them I would suggest giving them as much room and water as possible while still providing the dragon with land area. One problem that I can forsee is that the dragons fecal matter may dirty the water too often and cause problems for your frog. Frogs have very permiable skin and are very prone to infection unless they are provided with good quality water and ways to escape stress (such as deeper water or lots of plants. Lizards usually like to go to the bath room in or near water because it makes it harder for predators to smell it. I would suggest asking more knowlegeable people or scraping the idea all togeather.

i may or may not do that, my dragon died this weekend (he was s rescue with mites, MDB, bumps...) so that may or may not happen. i would have the water filtered, so I don't think that would be a problem. the kind of tank i would do is one with a dirt/driftwood/plant background so at least half of the tank would be water- so 36" long, 24 W and the water would probally be around 8. maybe 6. so thats equivilent to around a 50 gallon. i've asked a bunch of people, most have been sceptic, but the two people i've asked that have actually kept these together said yes, so i think they would know the best. one has kept in like that for 4 years and still is, the other has bred things for 30 years and is very knowledgable. thanks for your consern.