Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just a few pics. Those seem to be rare in US collections.

Greets,
Gerrit

Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Are you sure the snakes in those first 2 pics are of a pulchra. L.z. pulchra have black snouts. Sometimes you will see individuals with some light speckling but I have never seen one with that much coloration.

>>Just a few pics. Those seem to be rare in US collections.
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>>Greets,
>>Gerrit
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>>Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis
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>>http://www.lampropelten.de.vu
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Hey Rick,
Any ideas what those might be? I've never seen white on snouts on So Cal zonata. Could that be agalma influence?

Assuming they are pure zonata, they look like they could be multifasciata from the central coast. I have seen Santa Barbara zonata that were that red. Here is one from Monterey County with similar head coloration but much more orange overall.

>>Hey Rick,
>>Any ideas what those might be? I've never seen white on snouts on So Cal zonata. Could that be agalma influence?

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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

here is mine...i will update my pics soon...i dont have a ton of time. lol

Hi Ric,

the band counts on all of them tell, that those are pulchra. The animal on the first two pics is a hatchling of the two adults shown in the other pics. It is the only one with such an odd snout coloration.

Gerrit

Here is another hatchling and sibling to the first animal.

Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Hi Gerrit,

Band counts really have nothing to do with distinguishing the subspecies. In fact I believe SSAR currently does not recognize any subspecies for L. zonata because the morphological characters are so variable. I have never seen head coloration that drastic on any zonata from southern California. Even the second sibling you posted looks to have a red eye brow. Where did you obtain your adults?

>>Hi Ric,
>>
>>the band counts on all of them tell, that those are pulchra. The animal on the first two pics is a hatchling of the two adults shown in the other pics. It is the only one with such an odd snout coloration.
>>
>>Gerrit
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>>Here is another hatchling and sibling to the first animal.
>>
>>Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis
>>
>>-----
>>http://www.lampropelten.de.vu
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Hi Rick,

as far as I know from literature the ssp.'s are defined by band counts. According to the Markel book I do have L. z. pulchra. Do you know anything more? I have seen that genetic tests were done but never found any results. The parents are from Sweden and unfortunally do not have any locality infos. They were labeled as pulchra. If those are not pulchra, what else could they be?

Regards,
Gerrit
Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Markel is outdated. Follow the link.

http://www.unlv.edu/faculty/jrodriguez/19.pdf

As I said before, assuming they are pure zonata, my guess is that they have some coastal influence (Santa Barbara to Santa Cruz) from the multifasciata subspecies.

>>Hi Rick,
>>
>>as far as I know from literature the ssp.'s are defined by band counts. According to the Markel book I do have L. z. pulchra. Do you know anything more? I have seen that genetic tests were done but never found any results. The parents are from Sweden and unfortunally do not have any locality infos. They were labeled as pulchra. If those are not pulchra, what else could they be?
>>
>>Regards,
>>Gerrit
>>Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis
>>
>>-----
>>http://www.lampropelten.de.vu
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Thanks Rick, yet I have something to read in the evening.

Gerrit
Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Rick do you think if you had 100 Juarez, 100 Lagunas, 100 Santa Cruz, etc. labeled as groups 1, 2, 3, etc. you could tell the difference? Most people that have seen zonata in numbers could get it correct and some people could get it correct as far as telling a group of Palomar pulchra from a group of Laguna pulchra. That is my problem with no subspecies, there is a significant number of individuals that are unidentifiable but as a whole they are different, at least in appearance. Just my take but I was wondering what you think.

Yeah I would probably be able to distinguish them. I might even be able to get the Palomar and Laguna pops. Problem is that a lot of what goes into distinguishing some of these populations is not quantifiable. What are you going to say, Laguna snakes have a deeper shade of red in 50% of the specimens. Putting it another way, if I had a group of Cal kings from San Diego County and another from Fresno County, could you tell which is from where. I would hope so, but does that mean they should be subspecies. For zonata, I believe there should be subspecies, just not the ones currently being used.

>>Rick do you think if you had 100 Juarez, 100 Lagunas, 100 Santa Cruz, etc. labeled as groups 1, 2, 3, etc. you could tell the difference? Most people that have seen zonata in numbers could get it correct and some people could get it correct as far as telling a group of Palomar pulchra from a group of Laguna pulchra. That is my problem with no subspecies, there is a significant number of individuals that are unidentifiable but as a whole they are different, at least in appearance. Just my take but I was wondering what you think.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

So far Rick, what shall I call mine? Multifasciata? They were sold to me as pulchra and are pure bred, no pyrpmelana or triangulum inside. If you want more and better pics I'll send them to you via email.

Regards and thanks for helping,
Gerrit

Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Go ahead and email me pics. Probably no chance of figuring it out if somebody crossed subspecies, but I'll check them out. Need close-ups of the head from the top and in profile. You should go back to your source in Sweden and try to get more info also.

If they are not pure, I was thinking ruthveni before pyro or triangulum. Some ruthveni look very zonataesque.

debnrick at sbcglobal dot net

>>So far Rick, what shall I call mine? Multifasciata? They were sold to me as pulchra and are pure bred, no pyrpmelana or triangulum inside. If you want more and better pics I'll send them to you via email.
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>>Regards and thanks for helping,
>>Gerrit
>>
>>Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis
>>
>>-----
>>http://www.lampropelten.de.vu
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

I'd love to have a mountain kingsnake someday.
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

They are great pets.........sometimes LOL

Okay, when are they not great pets?

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

when they are hungry or scared...and in that pic she was scared because i just got her.