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Help - Vomiting, paralysis, death

thesamuraigeisha Apr 19, 2006 09:30 AM

In September I had a total of 11 colubrids which included 8 ratsnakes, 2 cornsnakes, and 1 milksnake. I have a custom tank 6'tall by 4' long by 2' wide in which all of them live. 2 of the ratsnakes were Bairds that I bought at a reptile convention in North Carolina in early September. I didn't isolate them for long enough, about a week, they ate their first meal and seemed healthy so I put them in with the others. They were sold to me as proven breeders for $160 total which seemed a little low, but the man I bought them from said he was getting out of colubrids. A couple of months later the male threw up a meal and died. I thought maybe the temperature in the tank wasn't high enough, though I've had snakes for 3 years and never had trouble before. I made sure it was 82F with cooler and warmer areas. Then the other snakes started throwing up. I shrunk their meals, brought them up gradually again and they stopped throwing up. About a month ago, one of the cornsnakes died, no vomiting. She was doing the "stargazing" thing before she died and seemed to have some paralysis around the neck. This morning I found the milksnake dead. She didn't eat her last meal, but she skips meals sometimes so I didn't think anything of it. I last handled her Saturday night, she seemed perfectly healthy. I haven't taken any of the snakes to a vet because everything I've read says if it's a virus in colubrids there's not much to be done and "doing nothing" can be very expensive. What's happening doesn't sound like any parasite I'm read about either. I talked to the gentleman who owns the local reptile store and he said there was no point in isolating the snakes now, if they were going to get something they'd already have it. He also told me there it wasn't worth it to go to a vet. I wonder now if I should have taken them anyway.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to make all the details clear. Any advice would be grealy appreciated.

Replies (14)

AJCrader Apr 19, 2006 10:27 AM

Well since I only have a few snakes, I haven't much knowledge of having so many, but from what I have read in these forums, that you should quarentine any new snake for at least 3 months just to be safe...and to always take a fecal sample to get checked as well, I have also read that a few people have lost most of their snakes due to lack of quarentine for a new snake
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A.J.
1.0.0- Amel Motley Corn- Valentine (R.I.P 5/20/05)
0.1.0- Snow Corn- Artica
1.0.0- Normal Corn- Ember
1.0.0- Ball Python- G.T.

Sonya Apr 19, 2006 11:28 AM

>>In September I had a total of 11 colubrids which included 8 >ratsnakes, 2 cornsnakes, and 1 milksnake. I have a custom tank >6'tall by 4' long by 2' wide in which all of them live..

May I first just say "Yikes!" This is like the poster child for why not to keep snakes together.

>>A couple of months later the male threw up a meal and died. >I thought maybe the temperature in the tank wasn't high enough, >though I've had snakes for 3 years and never had trouble >before.

>I made sure it was 82F with cooler and warmer areas. Then the >other snakes started throwing up.

This should have been the time for a vet. And I don't understand why you don't think it would have been productive. You would have had a treatment plan or a way to euthanize rather than just letting them struggle and die.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

thesamuraigeisha Apr 19, 2006 01:42 PM

I can euthanize the snakes myself if it comes to that. None of the 3 snakes that died showed any symptoms more than a couple of hours before death and all are eating fine and acting normally, so it's not like I'm letting them suffer. Of course several months is long enough to take them to the vet. It's just that literally EVERYTHING I've heard and read says the vet can't do anything. I can't even find info on recognized colubrid viruses. From what I understand, the knowledge just isn't there. So I'm asking here if anyone knows anything that has not made it into books yet. Or knows someone who does.

And no, I didn't quarantine the new snakes for long enough. I took a stupid chance and now my snakes are paying for it. It goes without saying that I will never do that again. But that doesn't help me now.

epidemic Apr 19, 2006 03:12 PM

This reminds me of a quote I once read; "Life is a cruel teacher, as she first dispenses the test, then the lesson."
I am not going to expound upon the need for quarantine, as I believe you will know better in the future, but I will say that a single fecal, as was mentioned within an earlier post, will not suffice in providing an accurate description regarding internal parasite loads. One should not be satisfied, until at least three clean fecal exams are reported over a 90 day period.
Unfortunately, snakes are not inclined to demonstrate clinical symptoms of a pathogen, until such time it is too late for intervention. This is why keepers must become keen at picking up on the smallest changes in behavior and appearance of specimens in their care, as early intervention such as adjustments to the captive environment, are often ll that is required to to correct health issues before they become clinical.
Only a necropsy could indicate exactly what occurred within your captive collection, as there are several pathogens which could have caused such a swift and widespread demise of your collection, Cryptosporidium serpentis sticks out foremost in my mind, but I do not have any empirical evidence to support this.
Also, as Sonya has pointed out, communal housing of the specimens within your charge is a haphazard practice and often results in what you have been unfortunate enough to experience.
Should you lose any further specimens, I suggest you contact a veterinarian regarding a necropsy and not delay in doing so…

Sorry to hear of your loss,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

BobS Apr 19, 2006 08:53 PM

Like Jeff said , we live and learn. We've all made mistakes on the road to being better keepers. I'm a bit paranoid about stuff myself. I regularly quarantine things, even from friends just to be safe. I have stepped up/changed some of my practices after lurking in the Indigo forum where Jeff and some other nice folks are VERY serious about their animals and regularly hash out health related issues.

Nobody wants to hear "I told you so". Your right. A painful lesson like this won't soon be forgotten and I appreciate you being brave enough to talk about it. It helps remind me and other keepers why we do what we do and not to get complacent, which is easy to do.

I hope things go well. Worst case, you euthanize the rest and start over from scratch. Clean every centimeter of that big old cage out with Bleach then ammonia and steam clean it etc.Get the cage blessed by local clergy.(couldn't hurt LOL)and start off the right way. Of couse Jeffs right about the liabilities of mixing and matching of a "community cage" but I had one as a kid and still recall how cool looking it was to see Yellow rats,corns,black rats, great plains,etc. all hangin out together.......

Chin up! good luck!
Bob

thesamuraigeisha Apr 20, 2006 10:21 AM

I used to be paranoid about my snakes, but nothing bad ever happened so I got sloppy. I will get a necropsy done if I loose another and next time I get snakes (if I do again) I'll do the three fecal samples. I wish I hadn't needed to make this mistake to learn this lesson, I really do love my babies and don't want to loose any more of them. Hopefully, reading this thread will make other owners more careful without having to make the same mistake.

Thanks again for the support.
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10 Snakes (9 colubrids, 1 ball python)
3 Sliders (2 red-eared, 1 red-bellied)
2 Cats
2 Argentine Tegus
1 Puppy
Countless fish, millipedes, and snails

kingsnaken Apr 20, 2006 11:12 AM

I was complacent the other day when I was changing water bowls. I took all of the water bowls out of their enclosures, and put the new ones back in, so I thought. I missed one, and one of my prettiest king died. I'm not sure if it was dehydration or something else. I suspect dehydration. I felt so bad that I was the cause to end an animals life. I know how you must be feeling. I would not stop having snakes if I were you. You know what to do the next time around. Live and learn. I now check their water, locks, and messiness more often. Nobody knows everything, and even the best of herp keepers lose some now and again. I made a mistake, and I won't let it happen again, as I'm sure you won't either. Good Luck and Keep Herping. Derek

epidemic Apr 20, 2006 03:15 PM

Now, back in he day, you weren't the kid with the incredible assortment of native Elaphe, who kept them all in a large communal enclosure and added a large WC D. corais to the communal menagerie, were you? I recall someone, on another forum, describing such a scenario, and his associated horror, to find he had introduced his new YT to an "all you can eat" buffet!

Good to hear from you,

Jeff

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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

BobS Apr 20, 2006 03:44 PM

That wasn't me Jeff! LOL I did however have a one eyed Indigo when I was a kid that I bought at a local petshop. He was a lot cheaper/affordable because it appeared someone tried to bash in his head and he got away. Healthy otherwise. Although he would really jump if you came up on his blind side! Otherwise VERY calm.

Any way....He refused everything I tried to give him. Mice,fish,my sisters hamster, everything. Then one day after reading that they ate snakes I took my BEAUTIFUL favorite giant Fla. Garter snake near him to see if I would get any remote feeding response. Before I could pull the Garter snake away he rushed at me like a freight train, grabbed the snake pulled it away from me,the whole time I heard all this cracking and crunching like somone eating a lobster(I can still hear it in my memeory!ughhh...)I couldn't get the Garter away. As hard as I pulled it, HE pulled it back harder. Fed great from then on...Boy was I traumatized! Live and Learn...Live and Learn...

Bob

BobS Apr 20, 2006 03:58 PM

I don't know if you've ever noticed, but a hungry Indigo is kinda scary...LOL

epidemic Apr 25, 2006 02:40 PM

With my Drymarchon collection approaching triple digits, I see lots of hungry indigos and I feed them two - three times per week!

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

BobS Apr 21, 2006 07:55 AM

I just looked through the Classifieds and Clay Davenport is selling two 05' Males. The description is the parents are soid black 7' animals. I don't have any experience with him but thought you might want to check it out.

High Sierra might be a good spot to check (haven't dealt with him personally) Jim Seargent from Split Rock reptiles has some nice looking animals.Steve Emmerick(Napa Valley) and Don Soderberg (South Mountain)(Barker animals)are nice folks I've dealt with and gotten nice BMs from.

Try not to let it get you too down. Most animals live a long time these days since we have a better undrstanding of things. But these things are sometimes going happen to all of us.The Black Milks are definitely a worthwhile project to stick with and like you pointed out, they can get to be "buddies" not just specimens in a collection.

Bob.

BobS Apr 21, 2006 08:11 AM

nm

housesnakes Apr 20, 2006 10:02 PM

>>In September I had a total of 11 colubrids which included 8 ratsnakes, 2 cornsnakes, and 1 milksnake. I have a custom tank 6'tall by 4' long by 2' wide in which all of them live. 2 of the ratsnakes were Bairds that I bought at a reptile convention in North Carolina in early September. I didn't isolate them for long enough, about a week, they ate their first meal and seemed healthy so I put them in with the others. They were sold to me as proven breeders for $160 total which seemed a little low, but the man I bought them from said he was getting out of colubrids. A couple of months later the male threw up a meal and died. I thought maybe the temperature in the tank wasn't high enough, though I've had snakes for 3 years and never had trouble before. I made sure it was 82F with cooler and warmer areas. Then the other snakes started throwing up. I shrunk their meals, brought them up gradually again and they stopped throwing up. About a month ago, one of the cornsnakes died, no vomiting. She was doing the "stargazing" thing before she died and seemed to have some paralysis around the neck. This morning I found the milksnake dead. She didn't eat her last meal, but she skips meals sometimes so I didn't think anything of it. I last handled her Saturday night, she seemed perfectly healthy. I haven't taken any of the snakes to a vet because everything I've read says if it's a virus in colubrids there's not much to be done and "doing nothing" can be very expensive. What's happening doesn't sound like any parasite I'm read about either. I talked to the gentleman who owns the local reptile store and he said there was no point in isolating the snakes now, if they were going to get something they'd already have it. He also told me there it wasn't worth it to go to a vet. I wonder now if I should have taken them anyway.
>>
>>Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to make all the details clear. Any advice would be grealy appreciated.

sorry to here about that it happened to an old friend of mine too.the only advice i can give is know your vender and only deal with one that someone has recremended.ive allso picked animals that have bin sick and died.there are a few breeders out there that give the rest a bad name.
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until next time make mine slither.herb
www.housesnakes@yahoo.com

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