Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have 2 savs that are a year old each. Sav 1 eats great and sheds w/no problems. Sav 2 has recently had a major decrease in appetite. I noticed part of his back was scabby and that he's having a hard time shedding. The temps are 130degrees in the basking spot and 85 degrees in the cool spot. Could the bad shed be contributing to his lack of appetite and what can I do to help him shed better and to improve his appetite?

First, as the who popularized higher temps for monitors, I understand why the hot spot is 130F, thats great. But 85F for the low is dumb. Sorry, I did not mean to say dumb. I meant to say something like dumb, without the bad connotations. Hmmmmmmm you can place the proper word here.

I do not know what your monitors actual problem is, but the use of high temps, 100F plus, should be coupled with normal low temps. Which anything around room temps is fine, you know, over 60F and below 75F, all species enjoy the ability to rest.

You surely could go lower then 60F without harm, but thats like going above 165F, there is not real need to do so. Some indo species do not like below 60F, but until your near freezing, it is of no harm. Many varanid species can go way below freezing, without harm, Heck and feed the same day. What I am getting at is, do not fear, COOL. FEAR freezing, fear heat. Heat kills, cool or slows them down.

What your doing to your monitors is, like leaving your car in the garage with the motor running at 3500 rpm. Ain't going to exactly kill the motor, but it surely will not help it either. While in the garage(at rest) let it rest. Cheers

interesting. . . . i cant quote sources, but I've seen in several places that I THOUGHT were reliable that said anything below 80 was risking an RI. The new cage I built for my rudi is 6' tall and I've been contemplating ways to get the temp up in the bottom of the cage, as its only in the low to mid 70s. But if what you say is correct, then I'm worrying over a non-issue. Could you answer another question for me as well? I've read different places that say different things about the aboreal nature of V. Rudicollis. Some say they are very aboreal, spending most of their time in the trees, all the way to others saying they only take to the trees to flee danger, preferring to spend the rest of their time on the ground. As I've already built the cage to be vertically oriented (6' x 4' x 2 1/2' inside dimensions) I'm hoping I was right in my online information gathering. If not, I guess its back to the drawing board. . . .

thanks,
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Chris
1.0.0 Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Columbian x Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Argentine Rainbow Boa
2.0.0 Bearded Dragons
0.0.1 Black Throat Monitor
0.1.0 Black Rough-neck monitor

But at the same time do not skim on the square footage. They enjoy climbing and will use the hieght but will also benefit from depth (i.e. 6Hx4Lx4D is better then 6Hx4Lx2D).

As for the temps a cage with a basking surface temp of 130+ with a temperature gradient down to 70 is fine as it offers choices. What most of those places may be talking about is letting your cage drop low without choices, (constant temps of under 70). If you limit the range then you limit your charges offer them a wide range and let them decide what they use.

whew! thanks for the advice. I would have loved to made a 6x4x4 but I had limitations, as it needed to fit in the front door! =/ My housing situation is changing soon and I knew I'd need to be able to move it.

And your rudis are huge! Is it a breeding pair? And did you have any trouble introducing the two or were they paired since a young age? I like the hide spot you have for yours, I've been playing with different things to give him a nice secure hide at all levels and temp ranges. I still need to put the lattice on the sides of mine, but had to get him in quick, he was escaping from his prev. tiny home. In the pic below, you can just barely see mine, hanging out on the horizontal limb in the front of the enclosure. Best I've been able to tell its a 'he', from the times he's everted. I only get a glimpse, but what I've seen is not a totally smooth hemipene but it seems small so I think he? is not totally everting.

thanks again

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Chris
1.0.0 Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Columbian x Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Argentine Rainbow Boa
2.0.0 Bearded Dragons
0.0.1 Black Throat Monitor
0.1.0 Black Rough-neck monitor

I had the same troubles when building mine. So I did it in a way they come apart in sections. This allows me to fit them out a doorway.

Yes, mine are 1.1 and have been raised together. They use the hide box I have hung, as well as burrowing down into the leaves in the bottom of the cage.

Your cage looks good and it appears to fit your monitor for now. Just always be prepared to expand as needed.

hmmm that is a good plan. How big is your enclosure for the pair? How "easy" has breeding been? I put easy in quotes because I realize nothing with monitors is a given, but I would love to be able to get a mate for mine and breed them. However, I realize the complications with the fact that mine is now 2 yrs old and introducing another monitor at this stage in his life is dicey at best. What is your diet plan for the pair? Sorry for all the questions, I havent found many (read any) other people with rudis that aren't 'new' like me.

thanks,

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Chris
1.0.0 Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Columbian x Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Argentine Rainbow Boa
2.0.0 Bearded Dragons
0.0.1 Black Throat Monitor
0.1.0 Black Rough-neck monitor

The cage they are in is actually two sections. I put two cages together and cut a portion out in the middle. This allows them to use both sides each is 6Hx4Lx4D. I will use this to seperate the male when I see she is soon to lay.

Getting them to copulate is easy, all I do is support them. Same goes for her laying eggs. She cycles and lays regardless of a male or not. It's the nesting and hatching eggs that has been my problem with them. I however used to have 2 males in with her, I decided to change that as it wasn't working well. That along with seperating the male during her nesting time, hopefuly will help.

I feed them a diet of mice, chicks, and small rats. On occasion they may get something else insect or sea food meal but thats it.

First, the term aboreal does not apply to you or your monitor. The reason I say this is, aboreal indicates distance. That is, up in something like trees. As an example, Savs are commonly found in short trees, are they aboreal? I have found ackies 15 feet up in trees, are they aboreal. Gila monsters climb trees in search of bird nests. Short trees but trees way over six feet.

When you have a ceiling of 8 feet, nothing you do will make your cage aboreal. You may make a cage thats taller then wide. But it surely in not in the canopy of a tropical forest. Its kinda the very bottom of a tropical tree. In fact, close to the roots.

So its a non-issue as you said, all species of monitor will make full use of a six foot tall cage. That is, if you give them the tools to use the height of the cage, limbs, climbable surfaces, etc.

About RI, I have no idea how you can allow that to happen. I am happy to say, since 1991(current streak of keeping monitors) I somehow have not created conditions that cause that. Don't worry, I cause all sorts of other ailments by experimenting with a full range of temp and other conditions. My guess is, Cold and wet with a immune deficent monitor will cause it.

Please understand, folks of all types tend to make excuses. Things like RI or mouthrot, or Calcium defic desease, are caused by a total lack of supportive husbandry. In another words, the monitors are not in the world they understand. The monitors do not have the ability to do the things they were designed to do, like elevate temps to build their immune system. Or move away from heat to conserve and rest. They need, have to, do both, get cool and get hot.

The problem with what you read is, they did not discribe the rest of their husbandry, they simply blamed the easist thing they could blame. A healthy monitor uses very cool temps. A sick monitor may not. Cheers

If someone would ask very basic questions, like what is the best temps for keeping and breeding monitors, I would have to say, hmmmmmmmm room temps with a localized hot area reaching at least 135F over the size of the monitors SV. If you have space, several hot spots are fine, just don't compromise the cool areas.

haha, well thankyou for correcting me on my misuse of the word, seems I must be more careful in the future in using words without getting the full definition.

Im glad to hear that it takes a practically ignorant keeper to induce RI in a monitor and that the low temps I am seeing are not harmful, but actually beneficial to my monitor. Since you mentioned total husbandry practices, let me explain mine to see if they are a correct fit for my monitor.

Again as described before, the inside dimensions of the enclosure are 6' tall, 4' wide, and 2 1/2' deep. The walls are FRP lined (adding wood lattice soon for addtl climbing), the floor is sealed slate tiles with a minimal layer of bark/dirt. There are hidespots available on the floor, but do rudis enjoy digging in soil? The top has a flood lamp and ceramic heat emitter, the former creating a 130-135 degree hotspot. There is also a 48" flourescent light for additional daytime lighting. Multiple branches and wood coverings to create hidespots high and low. Right now the digital thermometer inside the cages shows a 73 degree ambient temp at floor level and a 93 degree ambient temp at the top. During the day, these temps may rise 5 degrees. Hotspot temps are meausured with a IR temp gun. Also on the digital thermometer, it shows an inside humidity of 56 percent at ground level.

My rudi is fed crickets and mice every two to three days, feeding twice on crickets for every one time he feeds on mice. (mice are f/t) I have standing water available for him and get him out weekly to soak for 30-60 min. Anything else you may need to know?

and finally, so you're saying if I build a cage the full height of the room, it may be close to being an 'aboreal' cage?? hahaha

thanks again for the advice

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Chris
1.0.0 Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Columbian x Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Argentine Rainbow Boa
2.0.0 Bearded Dragons
0.0.1 Black Throat Monitor
0.1.0 Black Rough-neck monitor

about the "no less than 80F" thing...

i am guessing that i am that "reliable source", and indeed, i do feel we provide reliable, accurate, usable information. but you can't use it without the context in which it was provided, although it sure does happen a lot : )

temperatures are absolutely key to reptile success. it the most overlooked factor when it comes to new or inexperienced keepers. and that is my target audience when i write caresheets or FAQs, or post info on the forum.

Frank KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING, and that is great, but our husbandry info is not for him. for the main group of keepers that read and try to digest our material, they don't have a complete grasp of monitor/reptile theory, they are not very good at reading the animals and reacting to situations, heck, they have a hard time even comprehending everything in each paragraph, but they are trying, and it takes time...

i provide info for THAT audience. i want the new keeper to have success, so i want to make it as simple as possible.

when i suggest ambient temps no less than 80F, i feel like that will result in real world temps of 75F . i say 80F, the new keeper tries to hit it and actually achieves a 75F low. i can live with that. so can the monitor.

if i were to say "no less than 75F", then i get folks with REAL temps of 70, or 68, or worse (SO MANY folks simply GUESS at what the actual temp is, instead of accurately measuring, and they are ALWAYS way off).

those are temps that cause problems. sure, Frank can keep a monitor "near freezing temps", but again, HE REALLY KNOWS MONITORS, and there is so much more to actually trying that than he is saying. a new or inexperienced keeper (or "pet" keeper) is truly courting respiratory and other problems keeping lows in the 70's.

and that is why i chose my 80F number : )

not that it was overly relevant to this thread, but when the opportunity arises, i have to add context, so folks understand what we are talking about, and where we are coming from
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

speaking of irrelevant. . . haha. Yes, of course your site was one of the sources I spoke of. I've read and re-read that albig care sheet many times! However I had read the same information other places and that is why I mentioned it. I would be the first to admit I am still a 'novice' keeper and am learning to judge the behaviours of my monitors and what they mean. Its been amazing to see the improvements in my albig since adding the wood stacks, plus almost doubling what I 'thought' was a good amount of food. They are indeed bottomless pits! I would also agree with your decision on saying 80 and meaning 75. It is not hard to see where new keepers would just say 'oh close enough' or 'that should be OK' when they are 5, even 10 degrees off. anyhow, thanks for clarifying that for me and keep up the great work.

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Chris
1.0.0 Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Columbian x Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Argentine Rainbow Boa
2.0.0 Bearded Dragons
0.0.1 Black Throat Monitor
0.1.0 Black Rough-neck monitor

...Minus the Sarcasm. I actually dropped the temp in the cool area to 65degrees. Hopefully this lead to some improvement(s) with my sav....

I would keep an eye one them and monitor their activity. Then make changes as needed. This is what husbandry is all about. Its not about X temp or X amount of food. It fluid and there are many things that can effect progress. Your task is to keep making the right decisions. Its an ongoing thing. All the luck Cheers