Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Let me start with I have lived in south Florida all my life.
I am working on wetland mitagation.I create and maintian wetlands and presrves in Florida.I have seen the impact of Exotic species.The main problem is the destruction of land to build housing and development.We cannot do anything about this problem which in the end will wipe out our endangered species.That being said our biologist and state government have made the biggest mistakes introducing melaleuca trees to dry up the everglades also austrailian pine for wind break .We are also spending a billion dollars a year to try and eradicate the exotic vegetation from our natural areas.I see much more harm to our echo system from the exotic vegetation than reptiles or exotic animals .When we found the walking catfish in florida waterways they told us it would devastate our bass and bream.So far that is not the case we have many introduced fish species by our waterways some on purpose for the fisherman like the peacock bass.The grass carp to eat hydrilla.Grass carp are supposed to be sterile but they are reproducing now and eating native wetlands.I would like to know the truth about the est.of burms in everglades.I was told today they caught 90 something burms last year and for everyone caught there is a thousand not seen.To me that is very scary to have 900,000 burms in the glades.I relly don't believe this.Also I asked if anyone could tell me what they are eating or what bad effects they are having on the echo system.I would like facts not what they think could happen.They were wrong in the past and will be in the future.I am by no means trying to put down the agencies.I think before they make a law which can be added to as they go is very disturbing to me.If this is past the game comm.has complete control of the species being band or licensed .They can add any species as they go .How can you agree to ban anything if you don't know exactly what species you are voting to ban.Sorry for the long post but I don't understand how this can be done.
Mike

I've also lived in South Florida all of my life. There aren't 900,000 burms in the glades lol. I wouldn't hesitate to say that there are 100 or more out there. Burms will eat pretty much anything they can catch. Native birds, alligators...you name it they will eat it. Once they reach about 8ft they don't have many preditors. A burm clutch (yes they have been breeding) is massive 40 . There is no way to track down every single one!

hope this helps a little.
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

Glad to hear from a another floridian.Not many of us left.I know there isn' 900,000 burms in the glades .I 'm afraid they are trying to cause a panic to get this put into a law.i think gators will eat alot of them even 8 footers.I saw a report on the news of a gator eating a pretty good sized one.I also think the pic. of the burm with the gator coming out of the stomach could be a fake.I've never seen a rigamortis set in a animal that was eaten.It didn't look like any digestion had started.I'm sure caimon are a prey item in south america the snakes there don't seem to explode.But I would like to see the results of the study they are doing on what exactly they are eating .I would also like to see what the monitor colony we have is eating.I have to admit I do enjoy seeing parrots and iggy's and afew exotic monkeys running around.I don't see the need to ban them.Our echo system takes more of a hit from the nursery industry bringing in exotic vegetation.But we can't make you get a special permit each year to plant a exotic hedge or tree..Maybe this bill will not go all the way threw.We can call our local legistrators and voice our concerns.Or have the law more specific on what species will be banned.
Just my opinion.
Mike

"A lie repeated often enough gains a truth of it's own."

I have lived in Fla for almost 50 years, much of that time in the glades.

I keep hearing how there is this "breeding" population of Burmese. Yet, when pinned down no one has seen any nests, eggs or netonates among the burms caught.

Funny, I do find lots of Brahminy Blind Snakes-tiny as they are.

In these situations I think the "Truth" is what serves getting the bill passed.

Now I am not letting the idiots who release these snakes off the hook, but the extra drama has enough fuel to influence those who are not knowlegeable and who are in a position to vote on this.

I do not keep any of the big four and I am unhappy that my rights could be taken by an open ended law.

To be honest, lots of the big snakes are sold to people who think they are getting something cool and then find out later what really goes into keeping them. A big part of the blame rests on those dealers who sell to anyone. Granted its a business, but as it was said many years ago, "If we don't police ourselves, the government will."

Guess what...It's happening.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

/Quote: Now I am not letting the idiots who release these snakes off the hook, but the extra drama has enough fuel to influence those who are not knowlegeable and who are in a position to vote on this. End Quote/

How have they proven that there are actually droves of inadequate herpers releasing their burms into the Evergladses? I have seen zero evidence of this and I don't quite believe this myth. Maybe a couple of dumb young kids, maybe a few times, but not hundreds of herpers that suddenly can't handle a 12 foot burm. It doesn't make sense. There is always a market to find a new home for any snake of any size.

I have a different theory about the giant snake species roaming the everglades. I use the term "species" loosely because it is not limited to burmese but there are accounts of african rock pythons, reticulated pythons, and anacondas and any number of smaller species that don't make the news. My theory is that the vast majority of these introduced species came not from irresponsible keepers that set them loose but from the barrage of hurricanes that hit Florida very badly 2 years ago. Being the largest hub of imported snakes in the country Florida undoubtedly had many import operations hit and destroyed by the hurricanes. I think that this could easily explain where possibly thousands of suddenly large pythons came from. The time frame is right even for juvenile burmese that may have been inadverdantly set free by storm destruction. In two years the vast majority of juvenile burmese would be over 10 feet. Needless to say there would probably also be older and larger snakes also freed by storm damage. And not just in import houses but also private homes where pet snakes may have been left when the owners evacuated.

Just some of my own thoughts on this ridiculous, over exaggerated issue that is filled with myth, disinformation and horrific propoganda intended to instill stark terror in the people so as to shoot through a terrible law that only robs the rights of and damages the good responsible herpers and reptile vendors. This won't hurt irresponsible snake keepers. They will still get their snakes from somewhere. They didn't care about laws to begin with. It can only affect the law abiding that are already running a decent show and hurting nobody.
Our Website

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

I am going to have to ask you to stop making sense. This could hurt my plans for a herp guide service to the Glades to hunt the 90,000 burms out there. How am I to get any investors if people like you start spouting what may be the truth?

to be true, whereas I don't think they have actually caught
even a single burm being released by a pet owner so far.

I've been to those little roadside zoos off of Tamiami trail as a kid. I know that they were wiped out by hurricanes and they
had burms that were set loose.

The other thing is, I know that burm clutches are big, but the
everglades are filled with hungry predators that would feast on
fat, slow, baby burms in no time. Bass, soft shelled turtles, Racoons, foxes, otters, herons, panthers, eagles, hawks and obviously the top glade predator, the Gator...

There is always the unpleasant but pervasive hunger by elected
officials for more state funds via taxing the public. This is
another angle to the story. Daytona is after all, only the
largest reptile breeding exposition in the entire world.

That's a lot of pennies to fill their coffers with, just ask
the Seminoles how effective state run and FUNDED environmental
policies can be...

If people now are concerned with this new license, where were all the Floridian herpers at the past Florida Fish and Wildlife captive wildlife meetings? Only a handful of us private people have been there. What irks me is that now people complain about a permit which is going to be introduced here soon, but why weren't anyone of you at the meetings? Yes, we all have work and other responsibilites but I took the time out of my schedule to show up as did quite a few others. FL Fish and Wildlife listened to what we had to say and even asked for our advice. FL Fish and Wildlife DO NOT WANT TO BAN anything! This a public relations problem we have here as well as a enviromental problem as biologist say. The general public is scared of large snakes taking over and hurting their young son or daughter. It is the FL FWC responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen but they also do not want to take away rights from the RESPONSIBLE herper. Is this new permit going to have immediate results? No, but it will curb the impulse purchases that seem to plauge this hobby. But folks, the last two meetings that took place had to do with the large constrictor issue and not many people were present. The nail in the coffin for the large constrictors was that one week back in October 2005, that started with the headline "ALLIGATOR EATING SNAKES" which then followed with a cat getting swallowed up by a Burm, an African rock eating a rooster, and another attention grabbing headline by the wonderful media. I thank god that some of the snakes caught during that month did not even make the news! Like the 14 foot Burm living under a shed in Homestead! I know people aren't all going to agree with the new license but I agree that something has to be done. FL is unique that we actually have an agency (FL FWC) who is willing to listen to its people and try to come up with solutions. The next round of meetings is comming up in May. Here is a link to the Captive Wildlife meetings and other info. Please, show up and voice your opinion and concerns.

http://myfwc.com/captive/captivewildlifeTAG.html

I am unable to readily travel to Gainsville or Tallahassee. However, I was very active in the fight against the Boiga bill a few years back, that would have had all snakes of that genus banned.

I'm not sure if in part, I might favor this bill (if it were modified to a sane level). I have been at too many reptile shows and watched people who (from listening to their conversation) really did not belong having a puppy-let alone a large snake. I have also often watched less than scrupulous dealers sell snakes with wrong or (witheld) information just so they could make the sale.

In the end it goes back to what I said. We didn't police ourselves.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well said...doesn't get any better then that!
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

Interesting theory, David, but no one I know has mentioned large scale Herp import operations here in S. Florida being destroyed in the last two years. Remember I live here and know a lot of people in the business.

As to private owned specimens, it is possible that some may have escaped durring the storms but not that many. The hurricanes were rough, but nothing like Andrew or Katrina.

There is an interesting tendancy though here for state officials and the media to pump up numbers.

Al Cruiz from Venom One went on national TV and said there were 450 venemous snake bites in Fla one year. The joke here is that the media reports every bite and there are well below a dozen reported on average.

I have caught a Burm that was loose in the glades (a seven footer). Ihave seen 4-5 more brought into shops that were wild caught in the last few years.

As to the marketability of such large (11'-up) snakes. I have been in some of the better reptile stores when people have called or brought in Big Pythons. They have little value here because there are so many babies available. When people have called me begging for a place to give them away I have directed several to our local wildlife centers and to herp societies. Some of the bigger operations actually breed their own and are not looking for snakes of unknown bloodlines. There most definitly is not a market for quantities of large Pythons.

As to the glades releases...I cannot confirm the exact amount like above, the figure is suspect. However, the people I have talked too in F&G have said that the large pythons found are remarkably clean of scars etc...indicating captive reared snakes.

That there is mis-information and slanting to the news is undoubtedly true, but the idea that amature keepers don't release or allow their too big charges to escape is every bit as innaccurate.
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

theories about importation houses being damaged and freeing snakes are interesting, and possible, but you can't say that inexperienced keepers won't do stupid things, such as releasing their large reptiles into the wild. Especially in florida, in the everglades, where reptiles can thrive. That might make it seem a little better to some people that might feel guilty putting their pet into a situation where it could die.

But there have been large snakes captured roaming free even here in New York. There was one large burm captured just about a month or two ago I believe, and I remember years ago there was a snake...either a burm or a rock, the was killed by a man that it disturbed while he was fishing. In new york, burms don't live through the winter, so their fate is basically sealed once they are released. I've seen personally what happens when ill-informed people buy large snakes. One of my father's friends in buffalo had bought a baby reticulated python, and he was suprised when it quickly outgrew its aquarium and especially so when it started snapping at him everytime he opened the tank. This all happened around 1995, and last I heard he was unable to find a home for it. I guess he had advertised it for sale (with no buyers), and then tried pawning it off on zoos, and I wouldn't be suprised if he decided to just release it into the wild.

So saying that inexperienced keepers that buy large snakes wouldn't do something like releasing them into the wild (to rid themselves of the burden) is very unrealistic.

What I find funny is how they make stray snakes out to be such a problem, and yet there are millions of stray dogs and cats in the country that nobody cares about.

LOL!!!!

they just never live long, because it gets below freezing so much here. There have been plenty of large snakes and other such reptilian pets found in all areas of NY. Just because it's not a tropical area doesn't mean that people won't release reptiles they no longer want here. All it means is that most will not live much longer than summer lasts.

There was a big problem in the past with alligators and caiman being kept as pets, but even if there ever were any in the sewers, they obviously would not be able to live in those conditions long enough to cause any trouble. Besides, how do you flush a caiman down the toilet?

I think this discussion has included a lot of things that changed as they were passed fromone person to another. I can't verify every point here, but here are some things I've gathered, either firsthand or directly from Wildlife Officers, members of the Miami-Dade Antivenom unit (who are all good guys and several are active private keepers) and a few local nuisence trappers:

Yes, the burms are breeding here. Very little doubt about that. Only the big ones make the news, but in at least one area they find yearling or so burms all the time while clearing brush around the canals. Normal colored hatchling burms could very easily go unnoticed by mere humans.

Nnone seriously believes that the problem has much to do with the recent hurricanes, except POSSIBLY for some of the recent large snakes in residential areas. It's thought to go back to Andrew releasing enough (from private homes, possibly importers and maybe even metrozoo) to start the breeding population that we are seeing the results of now.

The big constrictors found in residential areas recently probably were either released or more likely escpaed and have no connection to and probably no measurable impact on the resident breeding population.

I volunteer at a refuge that occasionally gets burms found in the everglades. They come in scarred, sometimes skinny, and usually with respiratory infections, all consistent with having grown up in the wild in South Florida.

I didn't see Al Cruz talking about the number of bites in FL, but 450 or so a year sounds just about right for our share of the country. We get more than most states because we have more snakes and people spend more time outdoors. That includes all venomous bites, only a few of those are captive bites. I suspect you underestimate the number of bites reported. I've seen 6-8 (a wild guess) in the last year, but that's only for Dade County, including most of the captive bites I know about and one that was probably a wild EDB that the media went nuts with speculating that it had been an exotic.

(This part is just my opinion)

Of course there are people releasing their burms when they get too big. At the moment, I can't believe there are enough people doing that to be statistically significant when there are enough in the wild that they are FINDING 100 or so a years. That's wrong, and people who do it should be caught and punished, but until someone comes up with a way to deal with the established population, it doesn't matter that much.

I'm very sorry that someone's cat got eaten by a burm, but ask yourself how many native snakes that cat killed in it's life. I call it even. My neighborhood has ferral cats and NO snakes.

Sure, a burm eating a gator is spectacular and interesting, but I have to believe it's the exception, and it's not like were going to run out of alligators... I recently read that somewhere around 5000 (maybe it was more) nuisence alligators or killed annually in FL. That's how many we have. Note: I have nothing against alligators and think there would be nothing cooler than having a few wandering around my neighbor hood. I'm just saying that as a species, tehy are in no danger from burms (people maybe).

I can`t agree. Little doubt? There is hard no evidence that Burms or Niles are breeding here in Florida. None. The story`s told by guys like Wildlife Officers and local nuisance trappers hold about as much credibility as the guys who talk about Florida Skunk Apes.

For the most part Wildlife Officers barely know which end of the snake bites let alone have the ability to determine whether or not a species is reproducing within a given area or if their simply finding strays. But like everyone else they love to tell an exciting story.It`s amazing the BS that surrounds this stuff.

" Scarred, sometimes skinny, and usually with respiratory infections, all consistent with having grown up in the wild in South Florida. "

I would say that is more consistent with captive animals that have been subjected to poor husbandry then for animals that have lived in the wild. But for arguments sake lets say this is the case .Its highly unlikely that animals living like this would be reproducing. Anyone who knows what their talking about will tell you that animals in the described condition struggle to make it when cared for let alone in the wild. Snakes that are skinny with respiratory infections don`t last long in the wild let alone form the basis for a viable population. Ernie Eison

It's good to hear things from the "inside" and that is what I was thinking all along. You will always have the large scale breeders coming to the defense of arguments that have little validity (and the same goes the other way so I am not taking sides here). I also have many confirmed reports from folks in the field in the 'glades of encounters with burms (including photos) so whether these are released pets, or, pets escaping due to hurricanes is of little consequence, the bottom line is that these animals "may" pose a threat to a very fragile ecosystem. Florida F & G was forced to do something and even if it was a knee jerk reaction, complacency would have been just as bad. As always, we can blame the irresponsible keepers, the breeders who are only in it for the $$$, and those companies that sell them via pet stores, wholesale, whatever...everyone shares the blame.

>>Interesting theory, David, but no one I know has mentioned large scale Herp import operations here in S. Florida being destroyed in the last two years. Remember I live here and know a lot of people in the business.
>>
>>As to private owned specimens, it is possible that some may have escaped durring the storms but not that many. The hurricanes were rough, but nothing like Andrew or Katrina.
>>
>>There is an interesting tendancy though here for state officials and the media to pump up numbers.
>>
>>Al Cruiz from Venom One went on national TV and said there were 450 venemous snake bites in Fla one year. The joke here is that the media reports every bite and there are well below a dozen reported on average.
>>
>>I have caught a Burm that was loose in the glades (a seven footer). Ihave seen 4-5 more brought into shops that were wild caught in the last few years.
>>
>>As to the marketability of such large (11'-up) snakes. I have been in some of the better reptile stores when people have called or brought in Big Pythons. They have little value here because there are so many babies available. When people have called me begging for a place to give them away I have directed several to our local wildlife centers and to herp societies. Some of the bigger operations actually breed their own and are not looking for snakes of unknown bloodlines. There most definitly is not a market for quantities of large Pythons.
>>
>>As to the glades releases...I cannot confirm the exact amount like above, the figure is suspect. However, the people I have talked too in F&G have said that the large pythons found are remarkably clean of scars etc...indicating captive reared snakes.
>>
>>That there is mis-information and slanting to the news is undoubtedly true, but the idea that amature keepers don't release or allow their too big charges to escape is every bit as innaccurate.
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>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Actually, I have little doubt that this species is successfully living AND reproducing in South florida. Biologically, Python molurus is unique among the giant snakes in its adaptability to a cool winter season, such as is often experienced in S. Florida. In many parts of its natural range it is forced to enter a period of inactivity, or even actual brumation, for many weeks by cold winter temperatures. Florida winters should be a piece of cake!

Breeders in it for the $$$? I've been a breeder for more years than I care to admit, and it's not a life path I'd ever recommend for someone who's primarily interested in making a wad of cash! I, like almost all breeders I know, do it because we love reptiles. If some of us are able to make a portion of our living by doing the things we love, then what's wrong with that?

Regards,
Brad Chambers

Spend some time in shows like the local ones we have here. I have. There are types you don't see in the big shows like Daytona. Like any other business there are the good and the unscrupulous.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I know exactly the type you're talking about, rearfang-but wouldn't you agree that few of these are real "Breeders", in the sense that all or the vast majority of their animals were personally bred by them in their own facility? Up here in the North most of the problem dealers are just that-dealers who breed few or no animals themselves, but buy up lots of babies from others and/or deal in scads of imported/wild collected animals.....then try to turn them over quickly for a fast buck!

Brad Chambers

Most of these guys are actually jobbers. Our breeders tend to run as a higher class.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I do agree with both of you to some degree. Sure, there are some top knotch breeders out there and, no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making money at doing something you love to do (heck, I work with reptiles professionally but at a different level so I'd be a hypocrite if I said anything otherwise). I've been around this racket for many, many years and even when I go to the big shows, I do see folks who honestly don't give a rip about the animals; there's no disputing it. Many of these animals are simply dollar signs. The object is to sell as many as possible no matter who it is that is buying it; I've seen very few breeders refuse selling an animal to a buyer who is not equipped to take on that kind of responsibility. Now, we are in the "morph rage" of herpetoculture which only exasperates how these animals are seen...once again, dollar signs. Thankfully, there are a number of people that I have a lot of respect for who are private breeders who operate great facilities and have the right kind of mindset when approaching these various shows...that gives me hope.

>>Most of these guys are actually jobbers. Our breeders tend to run as a higher class.
>>
>>Frank
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>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

It is the responsible keepers who are hurt by this legislation. The jobbers just move to selling a different animal. One I know of has switched his stock completely over to Pine Snake morphs.

Reading through this, I can't help but notice that some who are posting don't get the fact that Burmese Pythons are the most common snake found in our markets. And we have easily fifty or more shops just in the Broward county area. Dade Co is the probable center of the US pet trade. Add in Palm Beach and it is real easy to see why people are not knocking doors down here for large Burms.

It is indeed the new morphs that are the thing, which has really (again) hurts the market for big common Burms.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I get a little peeved when I see people painted with such a broad brush. You get a lot of criticism of breeders these days from "professionals' in zoos, museums, academia, etc...but I've been around long enough to know how modern herpetoculture has developed since the 60s. A lot of the people who came up in the last decade or so don't realize that the majority of the breeding and culture techniques which are now commonplace were developed by a few pioneering individual private sector keepers-at a time when most zoos were pretty much getting nowhere! There was a time not too long ago that ANY reptile breeding was a noteworthy event. In fact, when I was only 13 (1972)my pair of wild-caught black rat snakes bred for me (more in spite of my efforts than due to them lol), one of the curators of the zoo in Indianapolis drove 50 miles to see it!

The discoveries of people like Bechtel, Norm Damm, Bob Applegate, Trooper Walsh (who I know was also a zoo guy-back then the distinctions were more blurred),Don Hamper, Ron Tremper, etc, etc......all paved the way for the routine herp breeding we see today, both in the private sector and in zoos. Sure, there are a lot of scumbags in the private sector, but that's true of any area of endeavor in which money is involved. Could we at least try to give a little credit where due?

Best Regards,
Brad Chambers

No one's denying them credit. But this thread is not about them, it is about the reasons behind a law that is possibly going to pass because of the people on the other side of the coin.

Those guys pioneered this hobby, no doubt. But not one of them is responsible for this mess.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

no post

Unfortunately a large percentage of the blatantly stereotypical criticism toward breeders as a whole is motivated by jealously. I noticed that a lot of the criticism comes from folks that either have a go-nowhere job or can never seem to get ahead, that want nice animals but can't afford them and they openly criticize those that are succeeding. It's a little sad and my heart does go out to them, but understnding it with relative ease makes it very easy for the critical remarks to simply roll off my back. I can't speak for everybody but it doesn't bother me one iota.

But to expect this quotient of the herp populice to "give credit where credit is due" is a bit futile and is simply wishful thinking.

By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with the overal jist of y'alls post. Dedicated breeders paved the way to be sure. Not all breeders are in it solely for the money. Not all of us broker others' animals just to turn a buck. Speaking for myself, I only market and sell what we personally produce right here in our own facility with our own breeders. We don't partner up or do joint breeding ventures. We don't misrepresent what we sell. All of our breeders are pets for life and have names and are genuinely cared about. One will never see one of our older, pet snakes for sale. We have many that were once integral components in morph breeding projects that can now never be used. Such as normal male tigers, etc. No, we never sell our pets. Though sometimes we allow a holdback or two to be sold prior to it receiving a name and getting a permanent place in our colony/pet collection. We most certainly are not doing this with the intention of getting rich. Though to make more than our overhead is greatly preferred.

Sorry for the long winded post.
Our Website

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Those are guys I know and respect very much....they are the "few". Although I am a curator of a successful herp facility, I am also a hobbyist so I wear several hats in my passion for working with reptiles. I am in all aspects of the hobby and SEE IT with my own eyes and hear it with my own ears....and that is what I based my comments on. Am I using a "broad based" approach to my criticism? Not really...I am just looking at trends and where those trends are heading.

>>I get a little peeved when I see people painted with such a broad brush. You get a lot of criticism of breeders these days from "professionals' in zoos, museums, academia, etc...but I've been around long enough to know how modern herpetoculture has developed since the 60s. A lot of the people who came up in the last decade or so don't realize that the majority of the breeding and culture techniques which are now commonplace were developed by a few pioneering individual private sector keepers-at a time when most zoos were pretty much getting nowhere! There was a time not too long ago that ANY reptile breeding was a noteworthy event. In fact, when I was only 13 (1972)my pair of wild-caught black rat snakes bred for me (more in spite of my efforts than due to them lol), one of the curators of the zoo in Indianapolis drove 50 miles to see it!
>>
>>The discoveries of people like Bechtel, Norm Damm, Bob Applegate, Trooper Walsh (who I know was also a zoo guy-back then the distinctions were more blurred),Don Hamper, Ron Tremper, etc, etc......all paved the way for the routine herp breeding we see today, both in the private sector and in zoos. Sure, there are a lot of scumbags in the private sector, but that's true of any area of endeavor in which money is involved. Could we at least try to give a little credit where due?
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>Brad Chambers
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

The idea that there is not a gargantuan market for large constrictors of all kind is a complete fantasy. I can wholeheartedly understand their abundance in south Florida and therefore the depreciation of their value or even some difficulty in getting rid of them but the herp trade is far from localized. A large (breeding age/ size) burm, retic, afrock, whatever has a short for sale life if priced fairly on this very website. There is not only a booming national market for those exact animals but a global one as well. Tommorrow I'm going to pick up a 14 ft. normal female burm that I paid $400 for. Anyone that can't get rid of such creatures because of their abundance in a section of Florida is more than welcome to send them to me... I'll even pay shipping.

If you want big Burms a lot cheaper than $400 by all means come to florida. make contact with organisations like the Sawgrass herp Society and Snyder Park Wild Animal Rescue Center.

Proximity is the game. Maybe away from Florida there is a demand or even a shortage. That is definitly NOT the case here. So by all means come and get all you want!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I also live in Florida [North of Tampa) I have a theory and it goes like this. I think that yes Burms are breeding in the Glades but I am in the mind set that most of the original "Breeding stock" Is from the storm Andrew" where several importers buildings were trashed and remember right next to the north gate to the park there is or was a large gator farm that had several Burmm, retics, boa no to mention anacodas, caiman, crocs and monitors. All of which happen to be animals that are now turning up in the glades. About 2 months ago I traveled south and hunted the boarders to the park and we caught 2 burms 1 8 foot and 1 13 footers and we saw some traces of monitors (droppings). I went to the north gate to the part to the info station and talked to the ranger and he told us and showed some proof the they have captured 87 burms in on area all were adults or babies no 4 to 7 footers. They have caught all of the above listed animals and remember that in south Florida there is a large colony of Nile monitor that they (FWC) have proven to have be started from animals freed by the storm. I have like 150 calls or more a year by people wanting to give animals to me that they no longer waant. My point is people are not going to set free and baby and if they are keeping the animal till they are 10 foot are larger they are not going to free it. Most people say this snake is to big when it is 6 to 8 foot.

you mentioned caiman in South America.....did you not know we have them in miami FL as well?!?!
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
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I can't honestly say that "all of us share the blame." I know some very responsible keepers here that have never had an escape.

Larry, the 450 number is ludicris. There aren't enough snakes left in Florida to supply that number of hits, unless we sent a large number of people into the glades looking for them. The majority of venemous bites usually are from private collections. Last I heard, there are slightly more than 500 licensed keepers in the entire state.

Like I said. The media focuses on every bite and I have yet to count to ten in one year.

Cruiz made the statement on an Animal Planet show. By the way, We happen to know Ernie who is part of the team. Remember that Venom One serves all of Central America besides Florida. Personally, I think Cruiz got his numbers scewed.

Yearling Burms are not Netonates. Like I said-no one has turned up a hatchling with umbillical scar or even a hatched egg.

As to the quality of the average Fish and Game, I know a handful like Jim West, Max Polling and others who are serious in their study and knowledge of exotics. Skip, my local officer, is a rather good Lizard man.

Some I have met though are badly under-informed. I have watched them in action. I even saw a animal rescue person on TV a few years back Mis-ID a Coral Snake!

Recently, my brother took a photo of a snake he was warned that was supposed to be a Moccasin, by a Game Warden. It was a penninsula water snake.

I removed a Sarthodon Mossambicus out of a pet shop (they are illegal here). When I turned it over to a F&G officer, he couldn't ID it.

I could go on and cite many more examples but I think the point is made.

I agree with the "scarred and skinny" showing time in the wild. But then, how many released animals starve when they fail to adapt. Plus fighting predation. Not a proof at all of a breeding population.

I grew up doing animal rescue from the early 1960's with the group that founded the Snyder Park Wildlife center, and have done snake rescue I have seen what comes in.

As for the Burm eating gator thing...How does a headles burm eat a gator? Also in the pics you can see the gator's body sticking straight out fron the burm-nicely posed. I agree, Burms are of doubtful impact in a state that is being rapidly depleated of it's herps by that ultimate deystroyer..Humans.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank here is the bite history in FL the last few years. This data has been gathered when the MDFR Antivenin unit is called and responds. This was found on http://myfwc.com/captive/CWTAGOctoberMinutes.pdf

Miami-Dade Fire & Rescue Data (reported bites from FL, US and PR) Since 1998 approximately 800 patients have been treated with only 2 fatalities.
2002 77 bites reported; 33 venomous; 5 licensed handlers
2003 83 bites reported; 41 venomous; 5 licensed handlers
2004 92 bites reported; 44 venomous; 4 licensed handlers
2005 63 bites reported; 33 venomous; 4 licensed handlers

A bit confusing.

You say this is Florida's bites, yet it says at the top FL, US and PR. This reads to me as the Entire country and PR. which sounds right.

Anyway, even going for the max 44 venemous is way below the 450 Cruiz claimed just for Florida.

Thanks for the info.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Larry, the 450 number is ludicris. There aren't enough snakes left in Florida to supply that number of hits, unless we sent a large number of people into the glades looking for them. The majority of venemous bites usually are from private collections. Last I heard, there are slightly more than 500 licensed keepers in the entire state.

Sorry, but you're just way, way off on this one. There are a very small number of bites to keepers every year (and there are less than 400 LICENSED keepers since they raised the price of the permits).

You must live in a populated area. Much of the state is still forest and pasture where there are plenty of snakes. I've lived in South Florida most of my life and have never seen an EDB in the wild. My parents who are retired and travel throughout Florida, have taken pictures of several of them in just a few trips, and they weren't looking for them.

What is often reported is that somewhere around 40% of bites are to people who were "handling" snakes. They're not talking about keepers. They're talking about people messing with the snakes in the wild.

The numbers FLVenom posted a link to are ONLY those handled by the Miami Dade venom unit (4 or 5 people). Keepers are way over-represented in those numbers, both because they are more likely to be bitten by exotics which the local ER's can't handle and because the keepers know who to call when bitten (especially when some fool surgeon is trying to do a fasciotomy on them). Most bites are handled (sometimes poorly) by local ER's that don't bother to call someone who knows better.

I don't remember seeing the show where Al mentioned the number of bites, nor can I vouch for that number. In fact, a quick search tells me it might be more like half that, but the 10 or so that you claim is certainly nowhere close...

>>Like I said. The media focuses on every bite and I have yet to count to ten in one year.

I guess I misunderstood your point on this. I thought you were refuting someone else's claim because you knew that the ones reported didn't come close to the real number...

>>By the way, We happen to know Ernie who is part of the team. Remember that Venom One serves all of Central America besides Florida.

When they are called. They don't by any means handle every bite in Central America (or PR for that matter).

I know most of the team. I helped train one of them in handling and may be training another on elapids soon (if he gets his butt down there). Haven't seen Cruz since he was promoted. Were you at venom week at the zoo? We loaned them the black mamba and that big king...

>>Yearling Burms are not Netonates. Like I said-no one has turned up a hatchling with umbillical scar or even a hatched egg.

True, but neither are people realeasing yearling burms in droves, it's normally only when they are a bit bigger (like the ones you see on the news). Also, I'd bet if you took a survey of burm owners in Florida you'd find that over half of them own albinos or some other morph, yet ALL the ones we've had brought in from the wild have been normals. That sounds very unlikely to me. Most of the "donations" we get are albinos.

>>As for the Burm eating gator thing...How does a headles burm eat a gator?

He doesn't, he gets his head chewed off by another gator (or womething else) afterwards. I thought that was obvious.

>>Also in the pics you can see the gator's body sticking straight out fron the burm-nicely posed.

The low resolution photos that showed up in news stories are not very helpful. I tracked down the high rez originals a while back on the researcher's site (thinking that someone had probably found the burm and cut it open to see what it ate) and the burm was well shreded. My guess is that the gator that ate it's head also ripped it open, but I can't entirely rule out the possibility that the "mostly dead" (which is not as bad as "all dead" gator clawed half way out killing the brum and the head was eaten later. Almost nything could have eaten it at that point.

Like I said, last I heard on the number of licensed keepers. Sorry to hear the number dropped but with a 2,00o% increase it is understandable.

I presently live in North Broward. However, I have made frequent trips into the glades, the holy lands and Belle glade. I also lived in The Gainsville area for three years (1985-87) durring which I heard many complants from the local hunters about the lack of snakes in the area. I caught few as well.

If you are trying to pin me as a stay at home who has no experience in the field you are dead wrong.

I caught EDB's often, also Pygmys, and Mocs...even one cainbrake. Non V's include every large species found in this state (except Indigoes and I have sen more than a few). Plus lots of the small treasures like scarletts and scarlett Kings...even a worm lizard. Keep in mind I started hunting back in the mid 1970's so I have seen a lot of changes.

The only really common snakes I see today are water snakes, Rough greens, ribbons, Corns, yellows, racers, garters (and if you know where to find them (Fla Kings). But far from the numbers i saw back then.

My point on Venom one was that they serviced those areas. If they went on every bite in Latin America the number in their records would be astronomical.

As far as venomous bites not reported. My local news often reports bites from other states. They love stories like that, so I don't think they would miss so many local ones.

I'm sorry I missed being there for the so called gator feeding. I never had any doubt Burms could eat a gator, but the pics looked suspicious. Seems to me if it had ruptured from the snake's belly the tail would at least be curved back towards where it errupted from. From the photo I couldn't tell if the head was hacked or chewed off.

No Miami is a place I avoid. so I missed reptile day.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yes I know we have caimon.The airport workers felt sorry for a shipment of caimon that was not picked up and released them.I saw that on a program on trappers in florida or some show on it.Someone mentioned they have been hear 50 years.Do you remember when plantation was as far west you could go?State rd 84 was 2lanes all the way across.Those were the days .look at it now.
Mike