Reptile & Amphibian Forums

goin out on a road trip to a spot where i guess is the best spot around here as far as i could tell.....but ive never seemed to get one of these beauties...i have one but i just obtained it i didnt get it in the wild... its frustrating,,,,,,,, its april weather is perfect.....wish me luck.....i will post pics of the days trip if its worth postin......thanks for readin this.....good luck in whatever you do today and a happy 4/20

good luck! I went out just north of sanbernardino looking last weekend. no luck. still snow on mountain tops--probably a little early.
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1 Eastern Blue Tongue Skink
2 Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnakes - Knoblochi
1 Thayer's Kingsnake - Thayeri
2 Golden Greek Tortoises
1 Pyxie Frog - 14 years old

Where ever you go, please be kind to the rocks. Put them all back nice and snug.

>>good luck! I went out just north of sanbernardino looking last weekend. no luck. still snow on mountain tops--probably a little early.
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>>1 Eastern Blue Tongue Skink
>>2 Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnakes - Knoblochi
>>1 Thayer's Kingsnake - Thayeri
>>2 Golden Greek Tortoises
>>1 Pyxie Frog - 14 years old
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

looks like, here are some pics

Sometimes it is more subtle with chunks just not put back properly.

And how it should look when replaced.

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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Does this ever happen naturally or is it always the sign of thoughtless snake hunters?

If one is lifting a rock from the ground, is there a secret to getting it back in perfect position so that everything is sealed exactly as it was previously? Is there any test to do to confirm the right placement or do you just "eyeball" it?

If one finds a snake under the rock but doesn't want to collect the snake beyond taking a few pictures, is it safer to remove the snake before replacing the rock to avoid crushing the snake by accident?

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Hi Bill

>>Does this ever happen naturally or is it always the sign of thoughtless snake hunters?

It does happen naturally. I have seen fallen trees displace larger rocks and burrowing rodents move smaller ones. Cows will also cause some alteration. It is pretty obvious when it is snake collectors. This past weekend I saw about a 200 pound slab that was slid off a boulder that was nearly 8 feet high. No doubt who did that one.

>>If one is lifting a rock from the ground, is there a secret to getting it back in perfect position so that everything is sealed exactly as it was previously? Is there any test to do to confirm the right placement or do you just "eyeball" it?

Most rocks have an imprint so just try to get the rock back as close as possible to that imprint. Tucking the leaf litter or soil in at the edges helps preserve the moisture seal as well.

>>If one finds a snake under the rock but doesn't want to collect the snake beyond taking a few pictures, is it safer to remove the snake before replacing the rock to avoid crushing the snake by accident?

Take the snake out, take your pics, then release it after reseating the rock. With smaller rocks you can set them back down on top of an animal without risking its life. For larger rocks it is a judgement call whether to move them at all. Out here on the west coast, you are usually on a slope so you have to take gravity into account. If you do not think you will be able to replace a rock due to its size or position, don't move it.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

There are many natural causes. One could be happening this year in Calif. A very common cause of degradation of rock outcroppings is, lots of rain followed by hard freezing. This causes the water to expand and spilt open lots of cracks. Soften dirt, cause slides, etc.

Next is fire, Fire can rearrange exfoliations and create new ones in a single day. This can radically change AND RESTORE cracks in a area.

Next is bears, hahahahahahaha I was monitoring the destruction in one of our local canyons. I was following some old Calif collectors around. Then one day, the whole area changed. You see experienced snake collectors learn to only move the right(proper) rocks, as the snakes are very choosy in what and why they surface. You can tell experienced snake hunters from newbies(I hate newbies, they mess up everything) THEN theres bears. For the same reasons snakes come up under rocks and crevices, so do grubs. That leads to bears making a huge mess of the whole thing.(by the way, i did this for many decades)

What is funny to me, is ruining the rocks does not effect the snake populations, as they without question do not live in those rocks, and those rocks are not a critical part of their lives. Those rocks are only a handy place to achieve certain temporary goals. It does ruin it for many many other animals and insects. The key to understanding this is, the places they choose must capture an X amount of humidity(not moisture) Once the rocks are disturbed, this moisture trap is often lost. Therefore rendering them unusable or only usable for a very short time.

Also in most cases, the places the snakes pick have windows, that is, they nearly always have a small area the snakes look out of. So if your not so lazy, you can get down on your hands and knees and have a look without desturbing and ruining the whole thing. I recomend this. Do move the rocks.

Also, catching the snakes, even if you put them back, highly increases the chances of death for that snake. In my experience, 60% of the snakes captured and released into the same place relocate and die within a year. Without touching or molesting the snakes, the percentage of loss is much lower.

The real and I do mean real problem is, the areas that these snakes congregate are what I refer to as hubs(not brian hubbs) These are the center of populations, they are responsible for the vast amount of recruitment. These areas can be considered strongholds, that is, during adverse conditions, drought, fire, floods, etc. These areas are what allows the snakes to maintain a population. So messing with, degrading these areas is very harmful. In my poor old opinion, these areas are responsible for 80% or more of the successful recruitment. To understand this better, 80% of the population does not recruit successfully. The key to understanding this is survival of the neonates. They simply do not survive well away from these hubs. Of course, on really good years(this year in Calif, the outside areas work well) But no worries, drought and neonate death is around the corner.

So basically, the careless selfish snake hunters(the ones who destory habitat needlessly) are mainly ruining it for themselves and other reptile folks.

An experienced herper understands you do not need to move rocks that cannot be replaced properly. They understand finding these very very common snakes is NOT MAGIC and you do not need to destroy the world to satisfy your ego. (after all, it cannot be about money, the dang things are nearly worthless) And wild ones are mostly ugly(by our terms). If you want nice snakes, an old time herper told me this in the 70's, collect other peoples collections. Thanks

"What is funny to me, is ruining the rocks does not effect the snake populations, as they without question do not live in those rocks, "

What species are you talking about, gopher snakes? That is a pretty broad statement. For zonata it may hold true on the coast but not in the high elevation pops.

"Also, catching the snakes, even if you put them back, highly increases the chances of death for that snake. In my experience, 60% of the snakes captured and released into the same place relocate and die within a year. Without touching or molesting the snakes, the percentage of loss is much lower."

I do not see this with zonata. I have been marking snakes for 7 years at one locale. Most of the time they are back under the same rock within an hour. You would need to know the size of their home range and have a high recapture rate to make such a statement.

"The real and I do mean real problem is, the areas that these snakes congregate are what I refer to as hubs(not brian hubbs) These are the center of populations, they are responsible for the vast amount of recruitment. These areas can be considered strongholds, that is, during adverse conditions, drought, fire, floods, etc. These areas are what allows the snakes to maintain a population. So messing with, degrading these areas is very harmful. In my poor old opinion, these areas are responsible for 80% or more of the successful recruitment. To understand this better, 80% of the population does not recruit successfully. The key to understanding this is survival of the neonates. They simply do not survive well away from these hubs."

Agreed, but this is in direct contrast to your comments above about the rocks not being important. For zonata, those rocks are the hub. Try finding an adult female away from the rocks.

"So basically, the careless selfish snake hunters(the ones who destory habitat needlessly) are mainly ruining it for themselves and other reptile folks. An experienced herper understands you do not need to move rocks that cannot be replaced properly. They understand finding these very very common snakes is NOT MAGIC and you do not need to destroy the world to satisfy your ego. (after all, it cannot be about money, the dang things are nearly worthless) And wild ones are mostly ugly(by our terms). If you want nice snakes, an old time herper told me this in the 70's, collect other peoples collections."

So true!

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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

They do not "live" under the rocks you find them in spring. They use those for thermal regulation, and only temporarily. Trying finding them the same way in the J months and august/sept.

The problem here is, and I hope your careful. Toooooo much information can be deterimental to the snakes. I am sure you understand this. Thanks

In my experience, 60% of the snakes captured and released into the same place relocate and die within a year.

How did you make this measurement? How big was your sample size? How did you know when they died? How did you know that they had relocated?

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Geologists.
Although - they tend to break pieces off rather than look beneath/between.

I always try to put them back as best I can.

Have any favorite rocks?

There was one not to far from me that almost always had something underneath. Pretty cool til the guys from the quarry dumped excess concrete all over it.

Good Luck and be nice to the landscape,

John D
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0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"

nice reminder rick/jon