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Trying it again....little different

kjanda Apr 20, 2006 02:25 PM

I built (2) retic enclosures last year about this same time and used a hybid finish of oil based along with a stain............I asked the questions about toxicity after the fact and learned to not put the snakes in until it stopped smelling or "offgas". Well, gentlemen (and ladies of course), I'm sad to report after a year my (2) cages in the realm of several hundred dollars with lumber plexi etc. still smell to the point of I'm going to start all over again. Costly lesson to learn for sure. We made the decision to let these sit in a warehouse for how ever long it takes to finally offgas and forget about them (for years it would seem).

I do have some good news however, I've made some changes to my design and will have stackable cages now. But before I begin to build, I would like to know from the experts on what sealant to use on the inside (and out for that matter) I should use for housing retics, burms, and boas. The humidity will be relatively high. We have also thought about using Linolium (spelling??) to coat the entire interior. My materials of construction will be 3/4" ply for bottom, 5/8" ply for top and sids, 2 x 4's for front (grooved for sliding doors) 2 x 2's for all other framework. The dimensions will be 8' long x 18" iside height x 3' depth. I don't mind spending a little bit more to make it safe for them and functional for me.
What do you guys think?? I'm open to any and all comments and opionions!! I've screwed up once, don't want to do it again!!
Thanks
-----
2.1 RTB (Zander, Ridick, Liliana)
1.1 Burms (Vladamir, Natalia)
0.1 Lavender Albino Retic (Katerina)
1.1 100% Het Tigers (Nicholi & Charlamaine)
2.3 Silver fox rabbits
many, many, many, many rats
"New strategy R-2, Let the Wookie Win!!!"

Replies (7)

chris_harper2 Apr 20, 2006 03:17 PM

I was just searching the kingsnake forums for an old post from a friend of mine about Gonyosoma. Ironically I just found your old post about the hybrid varnish and just finished reading it. Weird.

Sorry to hear about the offgassing, but I'm not surprised.

Regarding the next cages, I am not a fan of using dimensional lumber for framing in plywood cages. They just don't need it and are too likely to warp and expand/contract.

But you should read some posts farther down about design ideas for large constrictors. And it has been a popular topic in the past months so you might also search the archives. In a nutshell, I would take advantage of the glut of 5'x5' panels of Baltic Birch ply in the country and make TWO 60"x30"x30" cages that bolt together. No internal framing needed, especially with the two piece design. And you end up with a 10'x30" cage which is great if it fits where you plan to put it.

I would like to know from the experts on what sealant to use on the inside (and out for that matter) I should use for housing retics, burms, and boas. The humidity will be relatively high. We have also thought about using Linolium (spelling??) to coat the entire interior.

I like the idea of using a linoleum floor. Even if you use a durable epoxy it won't be as dent resistant as linoleum. I would use linoleum for the floor regardless of what you might use on the visible parts of the cage.

For the rest of the cage, what look are you wanting? Solid color, clear coat over a stain, or what?

Here are some options for the interior:

1) Vinyl film - comes in clear or solid colors and can be laminated over just about anything. My understanding is that you could line a plywood box and fill it with water for fish if the edges were caulked well enough.

I have some excess in a glossy tan color if that appeals to you.

2) Water-based epoxy. If you live in the western US you should be able to find Envira Poxy from Kelly Moore. I understand it comes in clear but I have only found it in solid colors. It is flexible enough for use on wood. Said to be sensitive to improper mixing.

Rustoleum also makes a waterborne epoxy paint now. I don't know if it's flexible enough to use on a plywood cage. I think it would work. Only comes in solid colors. Also sensitive to improper mixing.

3) There are some new waterborne polyurethanes out that should be durable enough for a retic cage assuming you use a linoleum floor. The best of these Bonakemi Traffic, a two part system sold through flooring dealers. It cleans up with water while it's still wet but once cured you have to use acetone to clean it up. Only sold in bulk and is kind of expensive. But not as sensitive to improper mixing as other two part systemes.

There are other one-part WB polys that are very impressive but I just can't say they'll hold up to Retic poop that tends to get "deposited" along the edges of walls. Those first few inches of cage wall really take a beating in Retic cages.

But WB polys are so easy to use that touching up the cage as needed should be a quick and easy process.

4) Kleer Koat, Envirotex Lite and all the other bartop epoxies. A bit senstive to improper mixing but overall very easy to use. Just pour it on and use a torch (no kidding) to break the bubbles up. Very safe yet durable enough to coat wooden spear guns that spend hours under water in harsh marine environments.

Expensive due to how thick it needs to be applied and not the best choice when used around high heat. If you're using a RHP on the ceiling of the cage it should be no problem. Just coat the ceiling with WB poly instead of the epoxy. You need to put down a layer of WB poly as a pre-coat before the epoxy anyways.

I have recommended these epoxies to a lot of people. They tend to either love it or hate it. The hate it group has always been though who did not mix it well enough and/or used it around high heat sources. I have been careful to recommend them for this reason, even though a few people have absolutely loved them. Another poster on this forum has had a boa cage sealed with this stuff for 11 years or something like that. Says it still looks like a layer of glass over the wood.

I don't use it as much since it needs to be applied so thick. $50 worth of bar top epoxy just does not go very far compared to WB poly or WB epoxy.

5) Prefinished plwood. Both Columbia and Nova make laminated plywood that are prefinished with a UV cure epoxy. I'm not completely certain about just how durable they are, unfortunately. But they are said to be much cheaper than buying plywood and sealing it yourself. And you can't get any less toxic than a UV cure epoxy.

I suspect it would be durable enough, but I might take a precaution. Use linoleum on the floor but then take the extra step of laminating some clear vinyl film over the first few inches of the cage walls.
-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

rainbowsrus Apr 20, 2006 05:02 PM

One other thing, with the linoleum, cove it to all 4 walls and bring it up 4 inches or so, solves the depositing waste on the wall issue. to prevent damage to the linoleum, apply a large bead of caulk under the linoleum and make the linoleum cove with a tight radius. Tight enough so it fully contacts the caulk.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
2.7 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (adult breeders)
2.5 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2004)
4.8 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2005)
2.1 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

guttersnacks Apr 20, 2006 07:55 PM

Good idea. You're saying leave an extra 4 inches of flooring on all sides and run it righ up the wall. This alleviates the "seam" problem with corner crappers. Good idea.
I would suggest making sure your vinyl flooring is nice and warm (I mean really warm) to make it real flexible whem you drop it into the cage, then use a plastic spatula (from Spatula City) to jam the flooring into the edges. Your only problem will be the 4 corners. This is where your geometry skills come into play.

Good luck
-----
Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

chris_harper2 Apr 20, 2006 08:22 PM

You know, someone posted a link a while back that showed linoleum being stuck in the bottom of the cage in one piece and still going up the walls 4".

It was a good idea. You just have to cut squares out of each corner and shove it down in the bottom.

Forgot all about it.
-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

kjanda Apr 21, 2006 11:18 AM

we used a separate cut and "caulked" it. Was actually planning on doing this for the entire cage, a linolium seal for the whole thing top bottom sides, etc. and then caulking.
Chris, you have peaked my curiosity about the bolt together type cage. 5 X 5 panels but not using a frame??? I suppose I need some further explanation if you don't mind. You can even e-mail me direct if you like. I'm not sure how to build something without a "frame" so to speak.

Thanks
Mike
-----
2.1 RTB (Zander, Ridick, Liliana)
1.1 Burms (Vladamir, Natalia)
0.1 Lavender Albino Retic (Katerina)
1.1 100% Het Tigers (Nicholi & Charlamaine)
2.3 Silver fox rabbits
many, many, many, many rats
"New strategy R-2, Let the Wookie Win!!!"

chris_harper2 Apr 21, 2006 11:51 AM

Mike,

We can just keep it here on the forum. Both Bighurt and Rainbow-R-Us are experienced woodworkers and will likely have good information to add.

Linoleum on the entire cage interior would be fine and might even look cool depending upon the pattern. Then you only have to keep an eye on the edges to make sure it's holding up. But if you prefer the look of stained/clear coated wood on the cage interior by all means go for it.

Frameless cabinet construction simply means the panels of a carcass act as their own frame. Now how one goes about attaching panels together to build such a frameless carcass is wide open. But it can be as simple as edge joining plywood together with glue and nails. Just put glue two panels together to form a 90* angle and use nails to hold them together while the glue dries.

Of course it's not quite that simple as their are six panels to any box but the premise is the same.

Don't worry about the strength of the carcass. Some types of granite countertops can weigh over 1000 lbs and they are held up by frameless cabinets built with VERY simple techniques. No dados, rabbets, screws, etc. but they can hold up granite practially forever.

I only mention the Baltic Birch (aka Russian/Finnish Birch) because it comes in 5x5 sheets which lends itself well to the design I mentioned. But really an decent quality plywood could be used.

But I also happen to be VERY impressed with the price and quality of the stuff as well. It's the same stuff you see modern furniture made from as well as drawers for kitchen cabinets. It's the stuff you see where the cut edge of the plywood is left exposed. Like this:

-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

rainbowsrus Apr 21, 2006 12:28 PM

my paper cage liners. I lay down a couple of layers of newspaper for added absorption, then one layer of dimpled craft paper cut oversized. I press this into the corners/edges and voils, I have paper lined floor and paper lined lower edge of the walls as well. Makes cleanup a LOT easier....no crap on the walls
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
2.7 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (adult breeders)
2.5 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2004)
4.8 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2005)
2.1 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

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