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Very interesting Burm info!

JLExotics Apr 21, 2006 02:19 PM

I copy/pasted this from another site. This gives some more info on what they are eatting and what is being done and more on the new law that will be comming into place. I can honestly say I fully support this law and I think in the end it will do a hell of alot more good then harm just as the venomous permit has done!

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm...68c1c6d7d8&f=00

By Mark Potter
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 8:12 a.m. ET April 12, 2006

MIAMI — Walking gingerly through an overgrown field on the edge of the Everglades National Park in South Florida, wildlife biologist Skip Snow listened closely to the pinging sounds of a portable radio receiver.

As the electronic beeping grew louder, Snow knew he was getting closer to his prey — a 10-foot Burmese Python lurking somewhere in the tall grass.

But as walked on, the radio sounds began to soften, and Snow stopped suddenly. "Now the snake is no longer in front of us, it's back behind us," he warned.

Retracing his steps, he slowly circled a thick clump of vegetation, then froze, pushing apart the grass.

There, curled in the shade, was the long black and brown reptile that had been surgically fitted with a small radio transmitter. Park officials hope this so-called "Judas animal" will lead them to other invasive snakes, so they can be captured and killed.

Unwelcome park visitors
In the vast park, with its subtropical mystique and exotic species, the non-native Burmese Pythons have found a new home and are flourishing.

But they have made themselves so unwelcome that wildlife officials are aggressively fighting back.

"They're eating pretty much everything in Everglades National Park," said Superintendent Dan Kimball. "They seem to be eating machines."

Burmese Pythons are native to Southeast Asia, and are among the largest snakes in the world. They can grow longer than 20 feet.

Thousands of these snakes are imported every year into the United States, and are also raised domestically to be sold as pets.

A problem is that they can grow very quickly, especially in captivity — upwards of four feet a year.

"We can have a 12-foot snake in under three years, and have breeding animals in three to five years," said Todd Hardwick, the owner of Pesky Critters, a Miami animal pest-control company.

Over the years, as the large constricting snakes outgrew their cages, and became more difficult to handle, many pet owners released them into the wild.

In the warm Everglades, the freed Burmese Pythons found suitable habitat, and began to breed. More than 200 of them have been found in just the last few years, many of them along the main road used by tourists and fishermen visiting the park.

"I think they're going to be breeding as fast as we're capturing them," said Hardwick.

Skip Snow, the park biologist who runs the program to study and eradicate the snakes, said, "We've found Burmese Pythons in more places each year that we did before. We're also finding more size classes."

A threat to native species
Wildlife officials worry that in Florida the Burmese Pythons have no natural enemies to control their spread.

They are believed to be a serious threat to native birds and mammals, which they either eat or crowd out of their nesting and hiding places.

Stomach analyses prove the snakes eat wading birds, rodents, rabbits, raccoons, and even bobcats.

On a few occasions now, park visitors have witnessed fierce battles between pythons and the Everglades' top predator, the alligator.

Last fall, scientist found a 13-foot python that had ruptured and died after swallowing a six-foot alligator.

Pictures of the two entangled animals were circulated widely on the Internet, and some people concluded the python had "exploded."

Opinions vary on how the rupture might have happened, but some park officials believe the alligator's sharp back claws tore through the snake's skin after it was swallowed.

No one can be certain if the alligator was dead or alive at the time

High-tech surgery and 'Judas' snakes
In fighting back, scientist have gone both low-tech and high-tech.

Park officials are training a beagle named "Python Pete" to sniff out unwanted snakes. And they are educating school children to the dangers of freeing pet reptiles, and are sponsoring a "Don't Let it Loose" campaign.

At Davidson College in North Carolina, biologists anesthetized four pythons that were captured in the Everglades, and surgically fitted them with antennas and radio transmitters.

One of the snakes was a 16-foot giant that aggressively bared its teeth as it was incubated for the procedure. It took quite a few students to carefully hold it tight.

When the snakes recovered from their operations, they were flown back to Florida, and were released back into the National Park.

Tracking their constantly-emitting signals, scientists have collected valuable information about the snakes' habitat and travel patterns, and so far have been able to capture and kill 12 other snakes that were drawn to the "Judas animals."

Florida considers python law
The python problem is of such concern that a number of Florida state agencies and schools have gotten involved — including the South Florida Water Management District, which maintain some of the land where pythons have been found.

Florida lawmakers are considering a bill that would make it a third-degree felony to release Burmese Pythons and other large reptiles, or to negligently allow them to escape.

Pet owners would also have to register and photograph their large snakes, and pay a $100 a year fee to keep one.

State representative Ralph Poppell, who sponsored the bill, says too many casual python buyers have no idea about the serious problems they could face, and the damage they could do to the environment.

"What we're trying to do is bring some common sense and reality into something that some people look at as being harmless, until they have an encounter with it," Poppell said. "Please be careful with what you're bringing into our state."

Poppell says most in the reptile pet-industry support the legislation, and are concerned about the ecological impacts of non-native snakes being introduced into the wild.

Some pet store owners, however, worry that the annual fees will chase away many of their buyers.

"There's no way somebody's going to pay an extra $100 for a $50, $60, $70 snake," said Rian Gittman, owner of the Underground Reptiles store in Deerfield Beach, Florida.

He also argues that the proposed law, if adopted, would have the unwanted effect of making it even more difficult to control the snakes. "It will force a lot of people to just buy them out of state and go underground with it," he said.

Threat to humans?
Although the Burmese Pythons are quite large, and to most people can appear quite frightening, wildlife experts say they don't normally target people as prey, and pose only a limited threat to humans.

A few deaths have been reported, but typically involve careless pet owners attacked by their caged reptiles.

"I think there's a better chance of somebody getting hurt swerving a car around a python crossing a road and having an accident, than having an encounter with one," said Dan Kimball, the Everglades National Park Superintendent.

But biologist Skip Snow, and pest control expert Todd Hardwick agree that people should not confront or pester these big snakes should they stumble across them in the outdoors.

"They do have the tools to kill people," says Snow. "They clearly have the ability to give you a very nasty bite. They have a mouthful of teeth, double rows of teeth in the top that are backward pointing, and very sharp."

It's yet another concern for scientists and park officials, as they confront a very large intruder that poses an ecological threat to South Florida — its new home.
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

Replies (29)

BChambers Apr 21, 2006 04:00 PM

Fascinating info. A bit overblown, but it seems clear to me that these animals are, in fact, reproducing in the 'Glades. And why not? There isn't any magical factor I can see to stop them-after all, Python molurus is much less a "tropical" animal than, say, the green iguana-which seems to do fine in Florida!

Brad Chambers

rearfang Apr 21, 2006 04:27 PM

I read the above with a mixture of concern over the parts that are true or not in this article and a strong sense of disgust at the utter HYOCRISY!!!!!

All this talk on burms is indeed justified....BUT!

The state of Florida staunchly protects the second biggest destroyer of wildlife here (the first being imported Fire Ants).

Feral Hogs which are not native to Florida (or the US) are protected here as a Game species.

Hogs eat anything they can find on the ground from-snakes-to birds-to even baby deer. I have been near them in the glades and up state on a number of occasions. They do tremendus damage as a herd, rooting the swamp lands for tidbits. They have also been known to attack people.

Florida makes money off of hunting licenses and associated costs hunters pay for the sport of killing this alien animal. So, unlike the burms where there is no profit-the state continues to inforce laws to protect these hogs.

By the way, I can see an either-or here as Big Burms would eat hogs, but hogs would readily eat smaller Burms.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

rearfang Apr 21, 2006 04:40 PM

Hypocrisy

(I should proofread better when I'm pissed.)

Before you go fully supporting a law...remember it is OPEN ENDED. That means the law can be modified to include other species.

I am not opposed to a modified version of this law, but as I understand it, I would not want to place a weapon like that in the hands of the reptile haters (like the one who sponsored this bill).

For a dealer or breeder to back this law "as is"...is putting the knife to their own throats.
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

JLExotics Apr 21, 2006 05:13 PM

It's going to happen regardless. The FWC guys from what I've gathered are for the people. Some of them are even in the hobby and keep animals of their own. I keep large constrictors. I also support this law. Maybe they should close it up but then again if another problem animal happens to arise then putting it on the list will help to minimize the problem. I highly doubt FWC is going to go crazy putting everything from ball pythons to carpets on this list. You can still keep anything on the list, it's just going to cost you. How serious are you in keeping the animal on the list? Well I don't see someone spending $100 on a permit plus the cost of the animal to just pawn it off on someone or releasing it in the wild. People will start to think twice. I still see people keeping venomous and the cost of the permit is the same. Hell the price of the permit was $5 and now it's $100. I'd much rather have things regulated with a permit system then a ban put in place. Those states/cities/counties/whatever that don't have permit systems in place are the ones with the bans. I fully support FWC and I'm glad something is being done about this problem. I know some high end breeders/dealers that won't even sell burms or nile monitors..... to kids and or people that just shouldn't have one. Often times don't even keep them in their stores...or only have a few. This is to big of a problem to ignore and thus is why something is being done about it.
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

rearfang Apr 21, 2006 05:18 PM

You have far more faith than I have. The natural flow of legislation has allways been to tighten controls.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

-ryan- Apr 21, 2006 07:53 PM

that's why we got screwed in new york. We didn't have the luxury of getting a permit system put into place, we just got an all out ban. The only permit you can get (could get...you had to get it within a month or so of the ban taking place) is one that allows you to keep the animals you already possess, and this means you cannot aquire anymore, you cannot breed any, you cannot sell/trade any, etc. etc.

They went really far with this ban too. At first it was going to ban EVERY boid (from the rubber boa to the reticulated python), and luckily they changed it to just include burms, retics, anacondas, and rocks (I think that's all). They were pretty restrictive with monitors though. they made it illegal to own basically any monitor that has the potential of achieving a length of over 5', but yet, they left green iguanas off the list, when they have the most problems with people buying them without knowing what they're getting into.

I think it's obsurd. At first I was pretty mad to find out that if I live in new york for the rest of my life, I'll never be able to own a burm or a black throated monitor. Now I'm okay with it, because I'm pretty happy with my smaller reptiles. I think that all the other states are going to start following suit though, and I hope they go with permit systems as opposed to a straight ban like New York did.

HighEndHerpsInc Apr 21, 2006 07:59 PM

Fear not. There will always be a breeder with balls (not necesarily ball pythons) that is more than willing to ship those banned reptiles to the oppressed herpers of these totalitarian states. If one wants a large python, they will still be able to get it. Fact. It's just up to them to keep it a secret is all once they have it.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

ginebig Apr 21, 2006 08:14 PM

>>It's just up to them to keep it a secret is all once they have it.

ginebig Apr 21, 2006 08:16 PM

And just how easy do you think THAT will be??

quig

HighEndHerpsInc Apr 21, 2006 08:27 PM

Easy as pie. Every able person (large herp wise) that wants a burmese, rock, retic, anaconda, or whatever,. will have them. Where there is demand there is supply. Study your history.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

BChambers Apr 21, 2006 09:26 PM

Excellent point re: wild hogs. Does this increase or decrease your faith in how wisely the fish and game folks will administer this new and frighteningly open ended law?

All this talk about the law is, to me, missing the main point. Of COURSE this law won't have any effect on the "problem" of feral burms-those snakes are now well established, and you might as well try to eliminate rat snakes from the 'glades as burmese pythons! But that isn't at all what this is about. The publicity generated by this issue has forced the politicians to do something to APPEAR to have taken some action, in the hopes of protecting their phoney-baloney jobs. And it'll probably work.

Brad Chambers

rearfang Apr 22, 2006 06:54 AM

This is so about bandades. Create an issue and then boldly go forth an legislate. F&G is not the villan here, it is the legeslaters.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

pyboa Apr 21, 2006 05:08 PM

it would be nice if they would try to adopt the smaller ones out i hate to see them all killed hell i would take four or ten..
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1.0 pastel 7'
0.1 suriname 7'
0.1 columbian 7'
0.1 columbian 2'
0.1 columbian 7'
1.0 burmese 10'
0.1 retic 12'

HighEndHerpsInc Apr 21, 2006 05:51 PM

You would take 4 to 10? But that defies the logic of the burmese naysayers that there is no place to put the unwanted burms, lol. Heck, I would pay good cold cash for every female I could get that was found to add to my "Morph Outbreeding Program", of ANY age. Males can be used in hybrid projects. Nothing is valueless.
Our Website

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

rearfang Apr 21, 2006 07:42 PM

Just checked your Business site. High-End, Nicely done. I can see why promoting Burms is a big priority to you.

However, I see you are in Louisiana, not someone who walks into our S. Florida dealerships on a daily basis. So your thoughts are based mainly on hearsay.

I do walk into petshops on average twice a week, and know many of our local dealers (which is probably why I am such a "nay-sayer". As former VP of my Pompano based Herp society, I frequently came in contact with people who litteraly wanted to dump off their big Burms.

I think I'll take my word over yours, thankyou.

You say you want to use w/c's or abandoned Burms for morph projects. That sounds strange. I have bred a number of species and would think it more useful to keep tight track of bloodlines. Hybrids? (yuck).

Now I am not anti-Burm or Retic etc...I just like them better in someone elses collection. There are some incredible new morphs that are truly beautiful. But, I prefer smaller pythons like Savu's and Bismarks. Also I am working to breed some of the more more obscure colubrids. One adult Burms meal (by weight) would feed dozens of smaller snakes. My choice is based on economics.

I got a good look at what really Big Burms can do when a careless employee of a dealer I know stored rabbits too close to their cage. The Burms smashed out of their tanks and into the rabbits pen. No more rabbits....

The way I see it, Burms are harder to get elsewhere and if you want them, make (as I said) contacts down here with rescue orgs, petshops, or even see if F&G will turn their captures over to you.

What I have been saying the commoness of Burms never applied to the entire USA. If you are in a place where something is much less common it is easy to asume it is the same elsewhere.

Again, that is not the case here.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

HighEndHerpsInc Apr 21, 2006 07:51 PM


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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

rearfang Apr 21, 2006 08:00 PM

What, and spoil my fun?????
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

HighEndHerpsInc Apr 21, 2006 08:15 PM

Seriously though rearfang,

There are literally thousands of keepers and breeders nationwide that would take the miniscule numbers of burmese captured in the Everglades in a heartbeat. And yes, I am one of them. Sure they may be considered "wildcaught" and thus parasite ridden and such, but there are measures and quarantines for such ailments. I personaly am more intersted in bloodlines that are unrelated to any captive lines for my own "Outbreeding Programs". Simply to purify my own morph lines so as to lessen the cursed inbreeding done by oher thoughtless, careless and greedy breeders that are only in a rush to turn a prifit. Those with no consideration what it might do to the snakes or the future of the genepools. I despise these breeders and I would like to make it a public point that I am not like that at all.

However,.. the point of my post is that there certainly IS a market for each and every burmese and any other species that is otherwise abandoned or captured. The local yokals just need to utilize the internet to place them. They would have no trouble. They claim there are somewhere between 100 and 200 "troublesome burmese" found in the last few years,... heck man,. that is what most breeders produce in just 5 or 6 clutches and we always sell out in a few months. And I personally won't breed anything that sells for less than 500 dollars. Not because I am in it for the money, but because I don't want to contribute to the "expendable burmese" problem. It works well for me. We offer a free "Lifetime Return Policy" on all our large species and we have yet, after many years, to have a single returned animal.

Think about it.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

dollarthegreat Apr 21, 2006 09:16 PM

Well said, thats why i will always purchase my herps from you David. I have recommended you to everyone i know. HighEndHerps is the Bomb!!

DollarTheGreat

HighEndHerpsInc Apr 21, 2006 09:47 PM

Likewise Derek, You are an exceptional customer. And a friend too. I like to focus more upon making friendships in all this than sales, and with you it is a perfect example. I can't wait til you come to drop off the gabby and pick up the albino granite. We'll bar-b-que man. And maybe pound a few brewskies. See you then man.
Our Website

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

rearfang Apr 22, 2006 07:25 AM

We are not at issue here David, As I have written a few times here. Please come and get them.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

-ryan- Apr 22, 2006 01:28 PM

if they actually tried placing the burms in homes (and not just locally..try the internet, try breeders, etc), they would at least be able to find homes for some of them, instead of killing them.

But I doubt that would happen, because they don't want to contribute to more baby burms being produced, because they don't understand the hobby.

I think the thing that is overlooked is the fact that pets are released or escape. Look at dogs and cats. How many stray dogs and cats are there in the US that are eating up native wildlife and generally doing no good? A TON.

People do way more damage to the environment than any large snake will. Of all the animals that could be released, I'd say snakes would do the least amount of damage to the ecosystem, but people are afraid of what they don't understand (snakes).

Until they make it illegal for people to inhabit the US, there will always be more and more harm done to the environment. Afterall, we're feral too.

pyboa Apr 21, 2006 08:16 PM

.....
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1.0 pastel 7'
0.1 suriname 7'
0.1 columbian 7'
0.1 columbian 2'
0.1 columbian 7'
1.0 burmese 10'
0.1 retic 12'

rearfang Apr 22, 2006 06:40 AM

Whose uptight?
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

wstreps Apr 21, 2006 09:00 PM

Very typical of the bs that surrounds such issues as breeding Burmese pythons taking over the glades ,Nile monitors in the cape and the loch ness monster.All these things have the following in common :
First hand eye witness accounts, photo evidence ,all kinds of story's ,numbers games and blah blah blah, in the end it all adds up to this. NO PROOF TO BACK ANY OF IT UP. Nothing fact based .Plenty of speculation, hype and we know for sure but as far as actual facts . NONE to support the claims made by any of these people.Lots of talk and little else.You can find just as much support for the existence of big foot the Florida skunk ape,Jersey devil ,UFO`s as you can for Breeding NIles and burms in Florida and to this point they all pan out the same.

Guys like Todd Hardwick who is nothing more then a licensed poacher doing the job that FWC is supposed to be out doing feed on the hype ,propaganda and lies that are represented in articles such as the one by By Mark (FICTION) Potter .Guys like this are the low rung of the ladder.

Legislative bills such as 990 are nothing more then red herrings in terms of their intent to protect anything or anyone.And accomplish nothing in terms of real environmental conservation.But do serve as a version of the Emperors new cloths so to speak. To support them in anyway is foolish and short sighted.

The real environmental issue is the one that is perpetuated by the very people that are protecting us from giant snakes and lizards with their self serving cover up legislation.The picture is of formerly STATE owned wetland I took it today. Does it look protected or wet to anyone? This place and others like it are drained then determined that it`s no longer wetland and no longer needs to be protected.It`s then sold to the highest bidder for development. The State drains, sells and acts as nothing more then a land broker for some of the most vital eco systems anywhere in the world while all the environmental heroes are out there trying to earn a pay check off the hype surrounding perceived but unsubstantiated monsters . Ernie Eison
Image

yoyoing Apr 21, 2006 11:18 PM

Yes indeed. Instead of being scientific, let's be historic.
Our history is to erradicate high food chain predators. We have successfully done this (or been stopped in the attempt) in virtually every ecosystem. Is there one example of an introduced "big boy" taking over somewhere in the world?

tfrostydasnowman Apr 23, 2006 04:37 PM

While not exactly a big boy it is well documented that the Brown Tree Snake has dominated Guam’s ecosystem and eliminated a large chunk of the native birds and reeking havoc on domesticated animals (chickens, pet birds etc).. I remember seeing a documentary where all planes that leave from Guam ar subject to extensive searches when landing is some area such as Hawaii for fear of the same imbalance being introduced. As far as big boys I can’t remember the island’s name but a batch of Columbian red tails were imported for filming a movie in the 60’s or 70’s. Reports indicate that it was only about five or six snakes left on the island, and now thirty years later the islands forests have suffered the same fate as Guam’s, very little local wildlife remaining. I think Florida moving to a permit situation for the larger snakes is a good move as long as it stays there. Those who want a larger animal and will be responsible enough to own one will most likely have now problems spending the money for a permit. While I don’t think it’s a perfect solution I think it is a least a step in the right direction to try and keep additional releases from happening and allowing those who wish to participate in the hobby continue.

wstreps Apr 23, 2006 06:32 PM

The brown tee snake was brought up as is usually the case in this type of discussion. With out getting to deeply into the facts surrounding the brown tree snake in situation in Guam.This is often viewed as a role model for the devastating impact an invasive snake species can have on an eco system.But you can not equate the impact an arboreal snake species that incorporates birds into it`s normal diet has when introduced into an environment that has evolved with out the presents of any such species.

Why would this type of legislation stop at big snakes ? That's just what they were able to land this go around . Doe`s anyone really believe this guy was pushed so hard for it because it`s all he was hoping for or his love of the environment?

Florida licensed real estate broker who's primary listed occupation is manufacturing Ralph Poppell is affiliated (IN BED WITH) with many agricultural land developing firms.The type who specialize in completely clearing and destroying forested areas on a scale that would put to shame any South American rain forest slash and burn operation.To support this crumb or any of his ideas is ludicrous.Legislation of this nature is NEVER a step in the right direction.His motives are nothing but self serving and if he had his way he would wipe out everything replacing it with orange groves owned by his buddy's and giant low rent housing developments. He has no intentions of stopping with big snakes or protecting anything .

Its amazing for all the Burms that are over taking the Glades chomping down gators and the Niles that have become a plague in the Cape when ever the TV guys like say from the B network Animal planet show up to do a piece with the local experts they always end up using caned shots and adding some good ole Pt Barnum sensationalism to compensate for the lack of anything authentic.But if faking it gets 10 mins of camera time who's cares how negative the impact is. Rock on stars .

Image

rearfang Apr 22, 2006 06:51 AM

Much truth in that photo.

Back to herps....

The only example of a major alien reptile infestation I know of was in the Ft Myers area. A large local breeding population of Monitors (white throats) became estblished there. I know this is true because my brother took several trips out to photograph them and had no problems finding dozens. The state did a major erradication program there.

Aside from that, we suffer (LOL) under the attack of the deadly Brahminy Blind Snake, Basilisks, iguanas, curly tail lizards, geckos...and the perpetual Brown Anole.

We are becoming heavily occupied by the top of the top end preditors...immigrents.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

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