Reptile & Amphibian Forums

These photos are posted on anohter forum and I don't see any signs of horns. Do you think this is one of those MHDs you pointed me to that doesn't have any horns? I have been chatting with someone else who has one that I think may be one without horns. I haven't been able to see a good photo yet though.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I guess that would be a MD, Mountain Dragon, not a Mountain Horned Dragon or would it be a MNHD for Mountain No-Horned Dragon! ; )

Perhaps we could have fun with this, or maybe I just need to get some sleep!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

If you’d have asked any importer you’d know that many are hornless because of crappie housing and transport. Hers a hornless capra and a crucigera, but hey you can call them new species if it makes you feel good. This kind of post will confuse keepers even more.

Ingo
I sent your photo to my friend, he located the acantaura ssp from Viet nam and will send crew in a few weeks. This is how serious peoples do it, they make the moves not just talk about it. enough time wasted. ci@o

Wait a minute its missing a horn, dang now I am confused it could be a new specie? will it breed with my male? Guess the offspring’s will be hybrids?

Perhaps we could have fun with this, or maybe I just need to get some sleep Too?

To be fair to Marcia she did ask for a better headshot to see if the horns had fallen off. I thought the markings around the eye were a bit different but that might have just been the camera angle. It's a pretty dragon anyways. (My 2 cents.)

Theirs nothing wrong about thinking this is a new specie, in fact its part of the excitement of herpetoculture. However we should not liberally pass on such information, at least not without farther knowledge. I am not new in this field, iv seen my share of living room taxonomist. These do nothing for this hobby, its all about greed in the race for nomenclature. In recent years many new species have been named after second hand dealers, hobbyist, arm chair scientist or there wife, data have been published on hear say or by information provided by keepers without first hand experience, none or very little studies have been conducted in the field and most locality data was inaccurate.
I personally refused to have varanids named in my name, and also have refused to be sited in many literatures. This to me is nothing more then nonsense, we cant start naming species from bad photos without locality data or at least consulting with the providers about there origin’s. Crucigera is a polymorphic specie with many color variants, from all shades of yellows, orange, greens, browns or a mix of all, they are trapped by young boys with poles and fishing line snoops around local villages in the Ho chi Minh and My Tho area. They have been trapped this way for decades, dealers have imported them 30 years ago from these locals.

Others are following our steps, lets be responsible.
rgds

I do not feel that my question deserved such a venomous flaming. I do not believe that I was passing any information, I was simply asking a question. After all, isn't this hobby about asking questions, sharing information, and learning?

If it were not for Ingo sharing a link with us on this forum a while back I would not have asked this question at all. Yes, I, of all people know that MHDs lose horns due to rough handling. However, I also know that usually there is a scar where the horn was. The place where the horn was is not usually smooth and eveny scaled. There is usually a circle of raised scales, the ones that form the base of the horn, still remaining after the horn is broken off. In these specimens this doesn't seem to be the case.

The link to the thread that Ingo posted in is forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1035285,1041602 and the link he posted is www.foto.fm/albums/detailalbum.html?album=5016.

Now, normally I would not consider these to be another species either. However, should these animals be bred, and should the offspring develop without horns as well, even you would have to admit that they are not the normal capra.

So, just as you have not given proof that my little MHDs are crucigera other than that your collectors say so, I cannot give any proof that these hornless MHDs are anything other than damaged capra. I do know that crucigera are named so for the cross on the neck, my small MHDs do not have a cross on the neck and therefor do not fit that description. If you are correct then who misnamed them I do not know. When it is straghtened out I will call them by the correct name.

I do not feel that I deserved the put down that I got here. You have told me in the past to not take offense at what you have said but you continue to say such mean things. I may not be as educated as you but I have learned a lot about these little animals. I have not done so for prosperity, for financial gains, or for fame. I have only done so for the love of the animal and out of personal interest.

In the future, if you choose to disagree with me, that is fine. I don't expect anyone to ever agree with me, or anyone all of the time. But I don't understand why you have to be so arrogant that you think you are the only one who is right and that everyone else is beneigh you.

You came to this board asking questions at one time and everyone was kind and polite with you. Lately you have been curt and unkind.

You stated "However we should not liberally pass on such information, at least not without farther knowledge. I am not new in this field, iv seen my share of living room taxonomist. These do nothing for this hobby, its all about greed in the race for nomenclature. In recent years many new species have been named after second hand dealers, hobbyist, arm chair scientist or there wife, data have been published on hear say or by information provided by keepers without first hand experience, none or very little studies have been conducted in the field and most locality data was inaccurate."
I did no such thing. I simply asked a question. I am not asking that a species be named. If I wanted to see a new species name I have seen some really striking MHD photos that would be of much more interest than that.

On the other hand, I do know that MHDs have been imported for decades. Until 8 years ago they were considered fragile, nervous animals that were ill suited for capive care. Until 2000 they were considered not suited for captive breeding and the breeder column in Reptiles Magazine stated that they could not be captive bred. I also know that I changed that. I sometimes wonder whether or not that is a good thing, but none the less, I, an hobbyist with no experience with any reptile breeding, went out and bought a group of 1.2 A. capra and proceeded to figure out the correct way to keep them and they bred and hatched and prospered.

I may not be the god of all things reptile but I am not an idiot and I don't deserve to be made fun of.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

There’s nothing insulting about my posts, they are only words and none of these words are mean arrogant or offensive, you are taking them personal, this is not my problem. When someone says something I have the right to question them, in this case I believe you got your information from Ingo, then it was up to him to reply.

Sorry that you think I am being rude, really I am only asking for information.

I just saw the hornless dragon from your link, first none of the photographs shows the right angle, they are all lateral shots, then no locality information is provided.
As far as I am concerned this lizard is identical to mine and others iv seen.

This is my opinion, not and aggression or an arrogant statement in any way. If Ingo thinks it’s a new specie then let him explain why?

http://www.repticzone.com/forums/MountainHornedDragons/messages/750283.html
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html