Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This discussion about the Florida bills, burms roaming free in the everglades, irresponsible keepers/breeders/wholesalers (probably more emphasis on the wholesalers), etc has me thinking of what is the best solution to the problem that is currently facing our industry and hobby. I truly feel that responsible keepers and breeders should enjoy their hobby/profession yet I am also fully supportive of legislation that might restrict some of those rights due to the many bad apples that are out there...its a tough call for me because running my own herp facility, I encounter many irresponsible owners every year from the many, many burms that end up at our doorstep. There is no easy solution but our complacency and lack of initiative in coming up with viable answers on our own is a big reason why people from the outside are continually taking our rights away (by "our" I am referring to private hobbyists, breeders, etc. Although I am a curator of a herp facility, I am passionate about protecting righs of private individuals). So, with this long winded introduction being said, it would be my hope that we can find some viable, common sensical solutions that would drastically reduce the amount of bad apples that are out there. Self policing our trade is the only way its going to happen (in my opinion). Here's a couple of thoughts:

1) Require breeders to pit tag all of their hatchlings. Pit tags are not expensive ($5 per chip)and provide a way to track animals as they go from one owner to the next (or, in cases where they end up in the wilderness of Florida, we will know, perhaps, how to track them to the last owner who released them and hold them accountable if enough evidence suggests it). Reptile show chairpersons can easily do a spot check to see if folks are following the rules by doing random "pit tag" checks with a reader. Those who don't follow the rules, are not allowed to sell burms (or other animals that are similar in level of potential or perceived danger). Same goes for breeders trying to advertise on the well known forums, magazines, etc....have some way where they need to prove that their animals are being "tagged" and honestly represented.
2) Breeders (or anyone selling burms) being required to have some sort of "national certification" or license from a recognized "body" (very conceptual; that body is some sort of nat'l herp organization) that states that the breeder is following all protocols/procedures in keeping the animals properly, representing them well, and, screening potential customers. Minimum ages must be instituted. This way, prospective customers will know that they are dealing with legit breeders. This certification would also require minimum standards of care are being met. If breeders want to sell burms, realizing that most burms are not suitable for MOST people, they should also be required to take back any animal that they sell. Some on this forum apparently do this which is great. Additionally, I would even take it one step further and require people who are purchasing burms to take some sort of course on proper "large constrictor" husbandry and safety procedures. This course could be led by the breeder, or, could be a national program kind of like the Red Cross CPR cert. program...the main thing is being consistent in the message. WIth our computer age, it could even be done over the computer although they would miss the hands-on aspects which I feel is critical. People need to be made far more aware of the huge responsibility that they have in safely keeping a large constrictor.
3) I know this will sound strange, but perhaps burms that come from adoption/rescue programs are neutered/spayed in some way to prevent further breeding of animals that are already too saturated in our market. Several zoos, who want to keep communal exhibits of certain snake species, have successfully done this....but, since I don't know all of the pros/cons, I am not endorsing it, just throwing it out there.

This is not really meant to stir the pot, or, cause problems or heated debate but rather just trying to kick start an already apathetic "body of people" (herp folks as a whole) in trying to solve our own problems rather than letting those on the outside, who would like nothing more than to see all out herp bans, dictate our fates.

I realize the big questions are "who administers this certification"?, "how can we possibly catch all of the bad apples"?, "how much would it cost to do this and who would be responsible", and on and on but these are just simply conceptual ideas that certainly need a lot more refining.

Thoughts? Is this just crazy stuff that has no validity? Fire away!

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Crazy? Yes. Just might be crazy enough to work? Hopefully. I would actually see this as an ideal solution but it would not be through self regulation of the hobby. A law requiring these animals to be both electronically tagged and sterile in order to be sold would be a perfect solution. Actually, just the sterility part would do the trick. Doing something cheap, logical, and with status ("My snake is recognized by the 'ABC Breeders Club'"is very appealing.

Florida FWC is sensitive to the danger of driving people "underground" and would love a truly workable and fair solution.

Rob, I admire the shotgun approach you take when considering the problem. I have to take it one piece at a time...CNS limitation, I reckon. Focus on the source of, for discussion's sake, Burmese Pythons. Are most sold in the U.S. captive bred? If so, by whom? Are they "farmed" for retail market? Or are they primarily the product of hobbists / breeders and a function of the species fecundity? These are not retorical questions...I don't know. It does concern me that in the many K.S. Forums, the hobbist / breeder's focus is so frequently on breeding another clutch of admittedly beautiful animals. The talk of breeding begins upon aquiring a new hatchling. The number of good homes for the offspring has to be a finite number. Does anyone know or even consider the capacity of the responsible market? Are we a part of the problem and if so, what fraction of the problem do we represent?

personally i beleive it'll take work from all aspects of the trade from the hobbiest/breeder to the dealers. just because you have the capacity to produce several hundred burms annually doesn't mean you should. limiting production should keep prices higher.that would help keep them out of the hands of those who can't afford to properly keep them and still turn a proffit.age restrictions could also help. there's reasons you don't sell venomous to 16 year olds the same can be said for burms.don't sell just to make a sell or we may find ourselves forced out of the hobby and that would be the real crime.

1.1 granites
0.1 albino granite
1.1 labs
0.0.48 incubaing

Every post on this topic mentions ONLY breeders and suggests these are captive born snakes that are being found. I am very familiar with the issue as I am a pro breeder of burms and have been for pushing two decades and am located in Florida. ALL the burms found in the everglades have been NORMALS. NO MORPHS have been found of any size in the everglades and overall few morphs are found down here period when those type reports surface. The amount of normal Burms produced in Florida is very very low as they can be imported, including freight for about $15ea, not really worth it. For what its worth, I just wanted to comment on that portion of the issue for you guys so that the discussion has a little more balance. Would like to comment further but need to run at the moment. Good to hear people bouncing this around.

Bob Guerriere, Ancient Reproductions

Bob, I had that same thought, however, a good friend of mine who is a birder (not a herper) came across an albino burm that he took a pic of (it looked like it was around 4' tops) while birding in the 'glades. So, who knows what exactly is going on, or, whether these rash of normal burm sightings may have originated from fresh imports but I can't imagine that this albino did (I have personally not see too many normal baby burm imports available...I can't imagine that there is much of a market even if they are given away for free). Who knows. I'll be curious to see how these wild "invasive" predators end up doing.

>>Every post on this topic mentions ONLY breeders and suggests these are captive born snakes that are being found. I am very familiar with the issue as I am a pro breeder of burms and have been for pushing two decades and am located in Florida. ALL the burms found in the everglades have been NORMALS. NO MORPHS have been found of any size in the everglades and overall few morphs are found down here period when those type reports surface. The amount of normal Burms produced in Florida is very very low as they can be imported, including freight for about $15ea, not really worth it. For what its worth, I just wanted to comment on that portion of the issue for you guys so that the discussion has a little more balance. Would like to comment further but need to run at the moment. Good to hear people bouncing this around.
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>>Bob Guerriere, Ancient Reproductions
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

(I have personally not see too many normal baby burm imports available...I can't imagine that there is much of a market even if they are given away for free). Rob Carmichael

BURM FACT . Normal baby burms are imported into Miami from Vietnam by the thousands every year and they all get sold both in Florida and everywhere else . Ernie Eison

Thanks for that observation Ernie. So, the Burmese Pythons I see in virtually every pet store is most likely a farmed import from Vietnam. If that's accurate, one thought is controlling that source and relying on domestically produced animals.I know the importers, jobbers and retailers would object, but the supply and demand numbers would be in better balance and maybe that would make a dent in the "disposable population". I am guessing again, but those pet shop burms...I'll bet less than 5% make in to adulthood. And they don't just croak and get flushed like goldfish either. The range of likely dispositions is much, much worse...
Don't get me wrong here, I think any responsible party who desires and demonstrates the ability to keep exotics, should be allowed to do so. As many and of whatever genus/species they desire. However, proliferation, low cost and impluse buying are some the factors that need to be controlled in order to save the boid fancy in the U.S. JMHO

That's interesting to hear. I am assuming that most of these baby imports are going to chain-style pet stores so perhaps that's where the focus should be. Obviously, far more burms are available than competent homes so there is no easy solution but its no wonder that the Florida Fish & Game is stepping in and recommending some of these controls...I can't blame them.

>>(I have personally not see too many normal baby burm imports available...I can't imagine that there is much of a market even if they are given away for free). Rob Carmichael
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>>BURM FACT . Normal baby burms are imported into Miami from Vietnam by the thousands every year and they all get sold both in Florida and everywhere else . Ernie Eison
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

That is a point I was trying to drive home on the lower thread. These people who say every Burm can be adopted are clueless about just how many are imported here.

Rob, I like the chip idea. Also sterilizing Burms that go to generic petshops. If a person seriously wants to breed quality Burms then personally, I think buying from a reputable breeder vs a pet shop is more logical.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I really like Rob's suggeations for policing the burm trade. However, the first two seem more feasable than the third. I think having adopted burms sterilized is a great idea, but actually implementing this might be harder. Any time I have taken my reptiles to the vet, it always costs me a pretty penny. I spent most of my undergraduate career pursuing exotic animal medicine and I just think that sterilizing pythons would be very costly to the owmers and receive less support than his first two suggestions. I think pit tagging is an ingenious, cheap and potentially effective method.