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Ok I know what a Mojave is, what a Mojave can do.

But one question HOW DO YOU MAKE MOJAVES? What snakes do you have to breed to get a Mojave?

0.1.0 Irian Jaya Carpet Python (6'5"
1.1.0 Ball Python
0.1.0 Pit Bull
1.0.0 English Bull Terrier (purebred)
1.0.0 German Shepard (puppy 60 lbs @ 6 months)
0.1.0 WC G/F

Mojaves just are - the only thing you can breed to get a mojave is a mojave.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

You can get Mojaves from Lessers. There are and have been Mojaves in Africa, regardless of what you have heard about there not being any other Mojaves in Africa.

John Piro produced a clutch of Lessers and there was clearly a Mojave in the clutch.
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gail

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I'm not buying that gail..
mojave and lessers are diferant snakes...

no mojave has come from a lesser clutch...
I think we all have seen majave's and lessers...nothing is the same...

I doesn't matter to me if you buy it or not, there most certainly was a Mojave in a 2004 Lesser clutch. If I can find the picture I'll post it. You can believe whatever and whomever you want, I know what I saw.

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gail

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Gail,

I'm new around here, actually this is my first post...i read the forums everyday but never bothered signing up. Anyways, I agree with you and have seen the same thing. In fact, about a year ago before I purchased a group of mojaves i talked to Nigel (I'm pretty sure you know who that is, LOL) and he said that people have actually produced lessers from mojave X mojave clutches...almost like the mojave has a second super form.

ok im still confused on the Mojave thing.

ultimatly i really just want to know, what do you have to breed to get a mojave, in a step by step order.

if anyone knows it would highly be appreciated
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Deedle

To produce mojaves you need to buy one(mojave), raise it up and breed it. If you breed it to a normal around 50% of the babies should be mojaves.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

so basically i have to spend the bucks for just 1 snake to get them?

Theres got to be some way to breed them and produce them (without purchasing one) or they would not exsist.
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Deedle

The way to produce mojaves without buying a mojave:

Get a lot of normal males and females and breed them together and hope that one of the babies has the exact same genetic mutations that produced the first mojave in the wild. You will probably die of old age before that occurs, given genetic complexity, but you could try...

Sometime in the past, in Africa, a mojave was born to 2 normal parents. He or she was a genetic mutation. That individual bred to normal snakes and replicated its mojave genes. That is why we have mojaves today and how we can produce more. It all started with a random genetic mutation.

I hope that clears things up.

Not true, the original mojave was imported from Africa and was a naturally occuring genetic mutation, just like albinism in humans. The forces that be arent perfect, but sometimes their mistakes are better than their perfections.

I wasn't reponding to you Chris, u just beat me to the post...my last post was for deedle.

because they came from somewhere down the line, and thats all i wanted to know.
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Deedle

Every morph started as a random occurrence, but the question was "how do I make mojaves". The only 100% guaranteed way of making one is to buy one and breed it.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

We have produced dozens of Lesser Clutches and never have we seen a Mojave in the clutch, are you sure that the female wasn't
storing sperm? or that there were multiple Fathers?
We had a Pastel female who was bred to a Spider and a Mojave
Whose clutch produced a Mojave, a Bumble bee, a Pastave and a Pastel all in the same clutch along with a few normals.

Wes at MKR
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The only way that you could get a Mojave and a Lesser in the same clutch would be from a Lesser Mojave(would most likely be a Lucy) or from a Lesser X Mojave clutch.

While Mojave and Lesser are very similar, and are most likely alleles (same loci on the gene, just slightly different form and from seperate pedigree), they are not inherently the same thing, otherwise people would be selling Mojaves for a helluva lot more money.

Now what probably happened in the Piro case was most likely a Lesser that looked much more like a Mojave than a Lesser, but was indeed only a Lesser!

Hope this helps,
Dan

You can say whatever you want, I know what I have seen. There have been Mojaves in Lesser clutches.

And what one sells one animal for over another is all marketing ... this business is marketing and BS ...

It's interesting that some are so adamant that Mojaves and Lessers can not make each other, and you are all interested in the genetics of the Mojave and Lesser, but no one cared what made a Lucy a Lucy, it wasn't important ... no one cares ...
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gail

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**applause**

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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Thank you Kelli ... I hope you are doing well

Snakebytes

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gail

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Gail, I remember seeing a clutch posted last year and there was a baby there that didn't look like a lesser. I asked if the one pictured was in fact a mojave but the answer was no it is a lesser. It didn't look like it but was produced by a lesser so I'm assuming that is the one you are talking about too. I certainly wouldn't purchase it as a lesser but that is me.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

Thank you Nita. Lessers can and do make Mojaves. The first time I saw it was in a clutch produced by John Piro in 2004. I spoke with him about it at the White Plains show in New York. So the clutch you saw is another clutch that produced a Mojave.

There's no doubt in my mind that it does happen. I know what I see and I know my morphs. I work with hundreds of ball pythons, I just don't list them in my sig. And I'm sure people have no idea that I've produced some 'first of their kind' animals. But that's fine

I don't take it lightly though when someone tries to discredit what I'm saying. I may be a woman, but I have more balls than some of the men in this industry.

When you put Pastel to Pastel, you don't get all supers, but there are people that will try to pass off a nice Pastel as a Super Pastel just because it was in a clutch that produced a Super Pastel.

This is why it is important what makes an animal look the way it does ... if people don't care how a ball python became a Lucy, all that matters is that it's a white snake and thus can be called a Lucy, then why is it that if a Lesser and a Mojave are in the same clutch, you can't say it's a Mojave when quite clearly it is ... you lie and say it's a Lesser?

What is it then ... a Lesser Lesser?

Snakebytes

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gail

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What if it's all the same mutation just different variations? Like the different variations of pastels or hypos? Could that be a possibility? I'm far from being an expert but I've seen mojaves that look like lessers and lessers that look like mojaves. Yeah - I know there is a difference but I know there are also alot of similarities. And what about the Butter - that looks pretty damn close too. So if it's the same mutation just a variation then yes I can see the possiblity that a lesser can produce a mojave - of course thats ruling out that there wasn't a mix up during breeding or sperm retention or some other logical reasoning. Or maybe it was just a really ugly lesser - we've seen that happen in co-doms all the time - that one really ugly duckling of the clutch.

All this aside - the original poster just wanted to know how to get a mojave - I'm sure he was hoping for a simpler answer like breed a pastel and a harlequin - LOL - so all conjecture aside - the most logical explanation to the original question is in fact - to get a mojave to breed to a normal is the easiest route to breeding for a Mojo.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

describe you Tosha

I think you know that isn't meant in a bad way

The original post by Deedle asked how to make Mojaves ...

Posted by: deedle at Mon Apr 24 13:44:18 2006

But one question HOW DO YOU MAKE MOJAVES? What snakes do you have to breed to get a Mojave?

Which was answered several times. Then the discussion continued and here we are

Your question of the genetic similarities in Butters, Mojaves and Lessers is a legitimate one. And anyone that thinks you're ignorant is a fool. You don't have to breed these animals to see the genetic similarities in them.

Everyone that knows me, knows that for several years I've said the Butters, Mojaves and Lessers are of the same mutation. And I said that before any white snakes were produced from Mojaves and Lessers.

But, like I said in the other post, what do I know.

I'll leave the funny banner out of this post ... it looks like someone wasn't amused by it and had it pulled ...
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gail

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OK - yeah - I don't think that is offensive - and I think I remember the banner from before - I would guess that would be the reason for the pull.

I must admit that I am actually pretty ignorant when it come to the genetics behind these animals and I haven't been involved with morphs long enough to really be able to have an educated opinion - more like an opinion based on observation and those aren't very reliable. So, I'll leave it up to you big boys and girls to figure out!!

Now if someone could just tell me how to make a purple snake I would be forever greatful!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

Tosha puple is easy...

Dupont has hundreds of shades of purple...then just bust out the paint brush!

I'll leave the funny banner out of this post ... it looks like someone wasn't amused by it and had it pulled ...

Gail,

When you make fun of an incorporated businesses advertisement by making an obvious joke of the banner and the people who own the copyright to the banner you are stepping into infringement territory. I doubt you would do the same to Ralph or Nerd. Does that particular banner just happen to strike your fancy or is it personal? I might be wrong about this and you and Joe might be good friends and that might be a laugh that you two share? If so please accept my apology for not understanding the joke.
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Kyle J. Stevens
Royal Variations Ltd.

Many a false step is made from standing still.

My post got pulled....that's nice...

What I said was ...mojaves and lessers are not the same...

gail seems to believe they are for some reason and she believes that marketing is the reason they are NOT sold as the same morph....

That’s ridiculous.

looke them up people...go to the source.

www.ralphdavisreptiles.com
www.ballpython.com

look at the 2 morphs from the SOURCE...tell me they are the same.

Gail never said they were the same morph, try not to put words into her mouth. She said that people have randomly produced a mojaves from lesser X lesser breeding. and if you talk to some of the bigger breeders, in a rare occurance a lesser (not a mojove that looks like a lesser) had beed produced by mojave X mojave breedings.

what "bigger breeders" are you refering to?

if they are not the same .. then how could they produce the same snake....

I beleive gail IS saying that they are the same morph.

I'm just wondering since I don't follow these particular morphs - what breedings have been done (if any) to determine that these are not a variation of the same mutation?

As far as I know I don't think there is another mutation that you can breed with a mojave to create a white snake aside from a lesser -- even whatever the Crystals mom is didn't quite make it (came close tho).

If people have produced mojaves from lessers and lessers from mojaves - there may be a possiblity that there is a link in their genetic make-up.

Again I don't follow these particular morphs so if anyone can give a brief rundown I would appreciate it.

Thanks!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

the only person CLAIMING that mojaves hatched in a lesser clutch is gail....

it's never happend...If it has I would LOVE to see it....maybe piro can post a pic....

I think that people are saying that mojave and lessers are like black pastels and cinnys....

that's just not the case.

Well, Vin Russo also has a line a snakes that produce blue eyed white snakes. I think he calls his lemon balls. These look nothing like either mojaves OR lessers, yet I believe that last year Graziani crossed a lemon with a mojave and also produced blue eyed white snakes. There seem to be MANY ways to produce blue eyed white snakes from many different lines that to me look like completely different mutations.

Mark

>>I'm just wondering since I don't follow these particular morphs - what breedings have been done (if any) to determine that these are not a variation of the same mutation?
>>
>>As far as I know I don't think there is another mutation that you can breed with a mojave to create a white snake aside from a lesser -- even whatever the Crystals mom is didn't quite make it (came close tho).
>>
>>If people have produced mojaves from lessers and lessers from mojaves - there may be a possiblity that there is a link in their genetic make-up.
>>
>>Again I don't follow these particular morphs so if anyone can give a brief rundown I would appreciate it.
>>
>>Thanks!
>>-----
>>Tosha
>>
>>"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"
>>
>>
>>
>>6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
>>1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
>>0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
>>0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
>>0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
>>0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
>>2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
>>0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
>>0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

good point mark.

this remindes me of when people were saying that phantoms and mojaves are the same...

these same people said that Ralph Davis was charging way to much for his phantoms when they are just ugly mojaves...

it's insane...good thing Ralph knows how to "market" his snakes.

There was a brief time after the first cb baby phantoms when both RDR and TSK thought the phantom and mojave where the same. Now that the apparent super phantom came out looking so different than the apparent super mojave it seems to confirm the long prevailing view that they are different.

Have any phantoms been sold or even offered?

was offered for sale. It was actually a Blue-Eyed White produced from a Lesser X Phantom. I don't think any direct Phantoms have been sold (at least not publically).

Ok then my question is if when all of these mutations are crossed they all come up with the same result - blue eyed lucy - wouldn't that indicate that they are are similarly related or at least a compatible mutation?

Ya see what I'm saying?

I don't know - I'd like to learn.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

I know what you're saying but then why doesn't a phantom X phantom create a blue eyed white snake, when a phantom X a lesser does? Why are there so MANY ways to create a blue eyed white snake from mutations that look so different from each other? *WHAT IF* a blue eyed white snake is the *error code value* that turns up when ever the genetic coding gets confused and doesn't know what else to do? Does that make sense?

Mark

>>Ok then my question is if when all of these mutations are crossed they all come up with the same result - blue eyed lucy - wouldn't that indicate that they are are similarly related or at least a compatible mutation?
>>
>>Ya see what I'm saying?
>>
>>I don't know - I'd like to learn.
>>-----
>>Tosha
>>
>>"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"
>>
>>
>>
>>6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
>>1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
>>0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
>>0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
>>0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
>>0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
>>2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
>>0.0.4 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
>>0.0.0 Lizards of unknown origin

Good idea mark...it's possible.

I just have a problem with people bunching all these snakes into the same category...

The test will be if any of the cross line white snakes can produce normals or not.

If they are all mutations of the same gene (I vote for different mutations of the same gene but who knows, maybe some of the more similar could be the same mutation of the same gene) then white snake X normal should only produce the type(s) of the white snake's parents and no normals. For example, karma (lesser X phantom) could only produce lesser and phantom (about 50% of each) when bred to a normal but no normals and no karmas. This would be because if lesser and phantom are two different mutations of the same gene (allels) the karma parent can’t give two copies of the same gene to the same offspring and the karma also wouldn’t have a normal copy of that gene to give.

If they are different genes on different chromosomes then white snake X normal should produce some normals and even some white snakes in the mix. This scenario would be like breeding pewter X normal. Half the babies get pastel and half bet cinnamon but since they aren’t linked the two halves overlap creating 25% chance pewters and the two normal versions of the respective genes also overlap creating 25% chance normals.

Problem is there is also a third possibility, different mutations of different genes that happen to be close together on the same chromosome. This scenario might at first act like alleles (ex. karma X normal producing just lesser and phantom) but eventually we might see a very few crossovers allowing white snake X normal to produce a normal or white snake. That crossed over white snake could actually produce 50% white snakes X normal until the next crossover to separate the mutations. This is because the theoretical crossed over white snake would have a copy of both the lesser and the phantom gene on the same chromosome so would pass both to about half of its offspring and neither to the other half. But I'm really more thinking they will all be alleles - different mutations of the same gene and not this third scenario of separate but linked genes.

Why?

Because there is the Platinum, the Super Phantom, and the Super Mojave. All distinct.

I think that the cross Blue-eyes will produce White snakes when bred to normals. As with Pewters, Bumblebees, and other dual dominant/dual-CoDom/CoDom Dom combinations.

The factor as to why so many combinations make white snakes is that there is a problem with the gene codeing.

it DOES make sense.

The Blue-eyed White is an endpoint. When there is an "error" in combineing the mutations, that is the result.

There are theoretical "fatal" mutations, that can't ever exist in homozygous because it wouldn't live. It may be a similar result.

Unique theory!

Lesser's don't make Mojave's period call and ask any knowledgeable breeder. Please call John Pirro and I would love for him to publicly say that there wasn't a mojave with that female and Leseer's make Mojaves. It isn't going to happen becasue it didn't happen period. It is an outlandsih statement. Ralph and MKR has made too many clutches for that not to happen. We realize that the phantom isn't a mojave and they almostlook exactly alike. I don't understand what the problem is. The snake is totally different. The super is totally different. THe lesser makes the best crosses. They cross into morphs much better than mojaves period in my oppinon. Look at the lesser spider an dthe mojave spider. You make the decision. I have tons of both and there is big difference in everyone between them. I was just emailing Ralph and we arelaughjing are butts off because it is so ridculous. THe the lying comments Give me a breakplease::

Joe at MKR
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I am not sure if your post was meant to follow mine.

At any rate. I believe there was PROBABLY something else that resulted in the Mojave in the Lesser litter.

However, I am not ruleing it impossible.

As I stated before look at EBN's "Lesser Platinum ?" They had in Daytona and a lot of people said (initially) "What a cool looking Mojave"

The problem, it was from a Lesser breeding done by Noah in Ghana.
Brian from BHB (I can't spell his last name) bought from the litter as well.

Also, my last post (the one your's replied to) was just signifying what may cause all these combinations to produce a Blue-eyed White Ball Python.

Also, Gail did produce the first Spider Mojaves and I do believe she has worked with Lessers as well. If not I know she works with Kevin and otehrs at NERD, so she has been involved with Lesser projects.

If it is imported untill that animal is line bred to see what it makes you don't know what it is. Has a butter made a white snake not to my knowledge. It isn't even in the same class as the lesser. Until it makes a Lucy and I don't think it will the way this has been going.. It should have already been made. But that is alot more probable then a Lesser making a Mojave bred to a normal. People have had them for a while. If there is no super in 3 or 4 years there probably isn't one. If it looks like a mojave then maybe it is. I don't think so though. I just think it is a darker lesser and alot of people would like to think that Lesser's make Mojaves. They don't period everyone get over it. It doesn't happen. That is why is the lesser is more. There will be noone that makes that statement publicly on this forum because it hasn't happened period witout a shaddow of adoubt. If it happened there was multiple males. John probably wants nothing to do with this and I don't blame him. It is that ridiculous. THis has been going here for sometime and that is why some big breeders took a back seat. I am trying to handle this as professional as possible without gutting and embarrassing people. Right now all big breeders are so busy with eggs we don't have time to follow the forum. You will see what we are doing when you see the production period. Listen if anyone asks us questions no problem. This thread is exactly why it is the way it is on this forum with the big breeders. I love this forum and you all will see piles of homozygous animals that we produce at MKR. That is what this all about. Not nit picking, calling people lyars. It is a joke really. This is big business and we all take it very seriously. We all have reputaions and work very hard to put the customer first and take care of thier needs. That is what we do. We all love the snakes. We all love what we do and we are living our dream. Everyone can do this on any scale that they choose to or there money will let them.

Joe at MKR
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The more I think about it the more hairbrained it sounds. I think Randys alleles make more sense.

>>it DOES make sense.
>>
>>The Blue-eyed White is an endpoint. When there is an "error" in combineing the mutations, that is the result.
>>
>>There are theoretical "fatal" mutations, that can't ever exist in homozygous because it wouldn't live. It may be a similar result.
>>
>>Unique theory!

You have 100's of lesser to normal clutches and only one person said they made a Mojave from a Lesser which he isn't saying publicly. It is all third party and I believe that is the way it is going to stay. Because there was multiple males if it happened. It is very common for a breeder to put two different codoms in with a normal. Sometimes they miss the breeding and don't think anything happened when it did. That has happend to us to alot. Maybe he only got the one egg. Even putting the two different codom males together at the same time to get the juices flowing is common. And you can have more than one sire per clutch. We have done it several times. This is it for this thread for me. I am done here defending the Lesser and myself because over this Farse. You have to realize that we are dealing with living creatures here. Things happen but if they happen they happen alot more than once. More than not theorys go out the window when the morph hatches out escpecially with codoms. We all had an idea what Ralph's lavedar albino pied would like. You can't predict codoms. I want to make this clear. THings don't happenone in genetics once. If they do it is fluke and doesn't warrant people saying Lesser make Mojaves period. That didn't happen anyways. I hope noone takes this the wrong way. But we know lessers. I havehatched tons. It would have happened to Ralph or us.

Joe at MKR
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The start of this forum was about someone asking "how to make a mojave". Gail stated that she saw a mojave hatch out of a lesser clutch from John P. If Gail saw a mojave hatch then i am sure she did, she has been in this trade long enough to know the difference between the 2. I said that i beleive her. I do not know the background on the animal, it is very very likely that john breed to co-doms to his normal. Like you said many breeders do, i know i also do. Like you also said many people including yourself have produced two co-doms in the same litter. I just wanted to clarify if anything was directed towards be that i do beleive that Gail saw a mojave and a lesser in the same clutch, but i never said that a lesser produced mojaves. I beleive a double breeding had a hand in John's situation. Next time i see him i am going to have to sit down with him and ask if he saw this post, im sure well get a good laugh on how things got blown out of proportion (that isnt directed to you, Joe). I also have many animals breeding now that i do need to get back to so good luck to you and Wes this season.
Kim

That was the statement and was said that we knew about it but weren't saying anything to keep the project up. That is an outlandish accusation calling us lyars. Alot of big breeders took very seriously when that was said. Don't think that everyone isn't watching this and is sick about that public display. It is quite embarrassing for the business especially when Lesser's don't make Mojaves. Now this my last post. I am moving to OKC and will be out of pocket untill the 5th. If you need me call me.

Joe at MKR
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Joe, I hope that wasnt directed towards me, i agree with you and have in all my posts. Never once did i call anyone in this trade a liar, if you think otherwise i apologize for our misunderstanding. I would love to see where it was you got that i called someone a liar from. If this wasnt directed towards me then i apologize for this statement.
Kim

Kim,

Joe is packing to move out here to OKC.
That wasn't direct at you or

Wes @ MKR
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the way you think.

"It's interesting that some are so adamant that Mojaves and Lessers can not make each other, and you are all interested in the genetics of the Mojave and Lesser, but no one cared what made a Lucy a Lucy, it wasn't important ... no one cares ..."

People are getting caught up in markets (which they often fail in) and don't realize what they are actually working with.

The other day when I said that people SHOULD be concerned with what causes a morph one person replied that NO ONE cares. Well here is an example why I said what I said.

>>The other day when I said that people SHOULD be concerned with what causes a morph one person replied that NO ONE cares. Well here is an example why I said what I said.

Chris,
You just posted a bunch of stuff intended to make people think you know what you are talking about. When you were called out on it you had no more responses. You said that the BEST example of Leucism in reptiles was the Leucistic Texas Rat Snake. You obviously have never kept them and have only seen a few pics. Some come out with yellow spots.

So you have read some books, maybe go to a good school and have earned your boy scout merit badge in genetics....big deal. Try actually producing some of these animals before you hold yourself up as an expert on them. If you like reading, read what Dave Barker wrote about the Leucistic gene in Ball Pythons. Dave has forgotten more than you will probably ever know about snakes. Notice “no other elements of pattern”, not pigment.

Dave Barker wrote
Skin without chromatophores appears white and a ball python without chromatophores is white, top and bottom. An all-white ball python with no other elements of pattern and with dark eyes exhibits the classic leucistic appearance.

Dave Barker's complete Article.

Lets start out with some elementary genetics definitions, provided by www.dictionary.com:

A) Phenotype: phe·no·type

1) The observable physical or biochemical characteristics of an organism, as determined by both genetic makeup and environmental influences.
2) The expression of a specific trait, such as stature or blood type, based on genetic and environmental influences.
3) An individual or group of organisms exhibiting a particular phenotype.

B) Genotype: gen·o·type

1) The genetic makeup, as distinguished from the physical appearance, of an organism or a group of organisms.
2) The combination of alleles located on homologous chromosomes that determines a specific characteristic or trait.

Ok, so now that is out of the way, lets disect this argument further. Firstly you say that a Mojave was produced from a Lesser Platinum(not a Mojave X Lesser Lucy). Well, you are wrong in the generally accepted terms, since most people are referring to the GENOTYPE of the animal, since PHENOTYPES are not inherently inheritable, but GENOTYPES are.

So basically, what you were saying, is that a Lesser Platinum produced an offspring with the PHENOTYPE of Mojave, that most likely had a GENOTYPE of Lesser.

Now, it would be completely shady and underhanded to represent that animal(the one with phenotype Mojave, genotype unknown)as a Mojave, since it shares no common ancestral lineage with the established Mojaves in captivity. There is a very very very small chance that during replication, mutation occurred resulting in a true Mojave, with a genotype of Mojave, but this is highly improbable, as in 1:1000000 or higher.

Another thing that you have wrong is this, even if there was a African "Lesser" imported, representing this line as a "Lesser Platinum" would be incorrect, since they are from a different originating line than the one sired by Platty Daddy. The problem would be this, if you call it a Lesser, then it would be assumed that the genetics needed to produce a Platty Daddy(dilute gene?) would be definitely missing, rather than passed on down the line.

The correct way to market such a snake as an imported animal with a Lesser PHENOTYPE would be to give it a different distinguishing name, either very similar or not. Good examples of this are the different axanthic lines(vpi/tsk/etc), the Fire Balls (unproven line is being referred to correctly as "Ember", etc.

Hope this helps, and hope that this cleared up confusion!

-Dan

But you knew that already. There have been no mojaves hatched in lesser clutches. Yes they do have similar traits, and as Randy theorizes they may turn out to be alleles of each other but I believe they are different mutations. The Mojave came about many years ago from an imported animal owned by the snakekeepers. once they proved that they were able to duplicate the look of the wild caught animal I believe they had a contest to name the new mutation. This was the beginning of the original Mojave.

When Ralph imported his Platinum ball he was surprised to produce a mutation in the first generation. Those offspring while looking obviously different then normals, didn't even look close to the original platinum male, and so they got the name of 'lesser platinum' and this is how lessers came about being.

Personally I think it's very easy to see the differance between the mojaves and the lessers. I also don't doubt that there are darker looking lessers and lighter looking mojaves, this doesn't mean they get to change mutations based strictly on looks.

Both the Sutherlands and Ralph have developed lines of animals that originated from wild caught parents. I know that you also have a line of snakes developed from a wild caught animal that you are also calling a mojave even though it didn't come from the sutherlands line. Can I ask what your basis is for calling it a mojave? Is it based solely on it's looks? Or have you actually bred the two lines together to prove whether or not they are compatible?

Mark

>>You can get Mojaves from Lessers. There are and have been Mojaves in Africa, regardless of what you have heard about there not being any other Mojaves in Africa.
>>
>>John Piro produced a clutch of Lessers and there was clearly a Mojave in the clutch.
>>-----
>>gail
>>
>>_____

so quick question, if she bred them together and got a white snake would that mean that they are the same thing? I mean common there are ton's of combo's that lead to a white snake so that couldn't be the criteria could it? This is the way I look at it. If it looks like a mojo and came from a mojo then it's a mojo. If it looks like a lesser and came from a lesser it's a lesser. Unless the snake has direct lineage to a platty daddy you won't make one unless you get sooooooooo lucky to get one of those poss poss poss poss hets for the gene that is causing the platty. and hopefully this year when someone makes a hypo lesser we will see if it's a form of ghost (which I think it is but may be completely wrong). Personally I like the lighter lessers over the darker mojaves. And another question if a snake comes out looking like a regular albino from breeding a pair of lav albino's is it still a lav albino or is it a regular albino hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
-----
Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

You bring up a good point Josh, I covered the fact that there are many many different ways to acheive a blue eyed white snake on another post in this thread. So how could gail prove that her line of mojaves is compatible or not with the original line of mojaves? Hmmm. Maybe if NO white snakes were produced? Or maybe if she produced a combination snake that looked completely different from either parent? (like a pewter being a combination of jungle pastel and cinnamon pastel) I guess there is no way to know what would happen until it was actually tried. So gail, have you actually tried this cross yet?

Mark

>>so quick question, if she bred them together and got a white snake would that mean that they are the same thing? I mean common there are ton's of combo's that lead to a white snake so that couldn't be the criteria could it? This is the way I look at it. If it looks like a mojo and came from a mojo then it's a mojo. If it looks like a lesser and came from a lesser it's a lesser. Unless the snake has direct lineage to a platty daddy you won't make one unless you get sooooooooo lucky to get one of those poss poss poss poss hets for the gene that is causing the platty. and hopefully this year when someone makes a hypo lesser we will see if it's a form of ghost (which I think it is but may be completely wrong). Personally I like the lighter lessers over the darker mojaves. And another question if a snake comes out looking like a regular albino from breeding a pair of lav albino's is it still a lav albino or is it a regular albino hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
>>-----
>>Josh Hutto
>>JKReptiles
>>
>>
>>2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
>>1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
>>0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
>>1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
>>1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
>>1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
>>1.1 graz pastel female
>>1.6 05 normal bp's
>>0.6 04 normal bp's
>>2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
>>4 various corns
>>0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
>>1.0 american pit bull terrior
>>1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
>>1.0 grey cat
>>0.1 bearded dragons
>>
>>a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

It's going to be hard to tell what is and isn't exactly the same in this apparently related group just by looks.

I think one thing that has been helpful so far is the appearance of the homozygous animals from each line. The look of the crosses is interesting but the look of the pure supers from each line might be more informative. Admittedly there haven't been very many of them yet so maybe the sample size is too small to take too much from it. Also some of the assumed supers haven't been proven homozygous yet (for example the super phantoms) but its sure looking like there are some differences between the homozygous versions of some of the lines.

So, when Gail breeds two of her line of mojave together it will be interesting to see what that homozygous animal looks like. Will it closely resemble the TSK line supers or will it have its own flavor?

Until someone starts looking at the actual DNA we’ll just have to live with guesses based on appearance and breeding outcomes as to what sort of relationships there are between different lines.

I dont know how many "big breeders" are posting right now b/c i dont post too often and i dont know SNs. If everyone could see behind the curtains in the "ball world" i think many many people would be shocked. For starters Gail has been in this trade for a very long time, she knows her stuff inside and out. If she said she saw a mojave and a lesser in the same clutch ... well then she did. But just to let everyone know that isnt the first time things like that have happened, i know many examples of 2 morphs hatching in one clutch with no explanation. And YES i beleive that the Mojaves and Lessers are very very similar. Maybe not the exact same gene but pretty darn close. Also why in gods creation would a big breeder brag about producing a mojave and a lesser in the same clutch? it could only make the lessers worth well less... Gail i completley agree with you and have also heard and seen occasions when things like mojaves and lessers have hatched in the same clutch. I dont care how many people will disagree with this but i know what i have seen and i know Gail knows what she saw. If you dont want to beleive it thats fine, your intitled to your opinion, but ears down the line you will see that there are many secrets in this trade that are covered up to protect a high end morph.
Kim

if the mojave and the lesser are different mutations of the same gene, a very slight, random mutation that completes one from the other is somewhat more likely than a full-blown random mutation from normal to morph and would be witnessed in captivity on rare occasions.
-----
I have Balls!

Thanks for pulling the curtain away and exposing the ball world...if Gail says they are the same...they are...well reread the morph king post above...how about ask Ralph Davis if he ever hatched a mojoave from a lesser clutch....

He’s hatched a ton of lessers....it's never happened ... I don't think the amount of time grails been dealing with ball python changes the fact that she's wrong...

The problem here is misinformation...it's not right to give people the wrong info...

clutches and never hatched anything out other than a lesser. Could it happen possibly but I doubt it. We actually had a female Mojave never breed a male that year becasue we never put a male with her and she had 5 slugs 1 good egg and it was a super mojave that shemust of stored sperm from the year berfore. It can happen and has with us. Wes keeps unbelievable records and knows what he puts with what. Everything is recorded when it happens. That is only explanation because she was never been with a male that year. Also we and Ralph have had several codom clutches with multiple fathers and up to 4 different morphs(combos) in the same clutch. Anything nan happen but I am pretty sure that has never happened with Ralph too. He probably has had at least 2x or 3x as many lesser clutches as us becasue he is the father of the project. Either way the lesser is the and best cross morph in my oppinion of the whole het for lucy deal. The king pin rules. The spider lesser rules. This is only my oppinion and I would pay big money for those animals and that is why we are going to make them in big numbers. We have held back every Lesser platinum female that we have made and most mojave females. I have a pinstripe that is possible het for the missing daddy platty gene and he is getting nothing but lessers next year. I love the Lesser no matter what and we have them both. I think it worth more money because the super mojave is really nice but the lesser cross we feel is worth more. It doesn't have a purple head. Our 3 lucy males are breeding everything including a bunch of normals so we shall see. Just telling what has happened with the lesser's at our facillity.

Joe at MKR
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____

_____

Thanks Joe...

I hope that clears the air a bit for everyone...
Sometimes our "heroes" can be wrong...

But like Kim said...if we could be behind the curtain of the ball world then we would be shocked....

Well when you say things like

"Also why in gods creation would a big breeder brag about producing a mojave and a lesser in the same clutch? It could only make the lessers worth well less..."

Your accusing people of lying to keep there stock safe...well that’s a little ridiculous...I think most of us know who the good guys are in the ball biz...anyhoo...be careful who you believe.

Out.

np
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Kyle J. Stevens
Royal Variations Ltd.

Many a false step is made from standing still.

We have hatched just over 100 lessers and we have Lighter color lesser's and darker lesser's. but none are Mojaves clearly. We were the first to make the pastave and suer Mojave and I am here to tell you that the lesser makes a better cross hands down. I have multiple animals of each in our facillity. Also Ididn't want to beleive this either. Ralph's phantom is not a Mojave. It took him to produce that awesome animal for me to believe. When he did I called himup personally and told him I have to send out props to you because I didn't believe it and I even told him I publicly said that I didn't believe it. We are dealing with genes and oppinions. A fluke can happen but I bet between us Ralph there has been well over 200 clutches of lesser to normal or so close that it doesn't make a difference and I am pretty sure he has hatched nothing but lesser's and normals. Call him and ask him. He will give you the straight scoop just like I will. We have nothing to hide. One snake gets hot then another one does. THe key is to make numbers in everything than you can't loose.. Codoms didn't crash. They stabilized. That is what happens when an animal can produce itself like that. They are still worth alot of money and will see that when they make the best crosses. I will pay big money for the next new codom if I believe in it. I believed and still do believe in the lesser and you will see it will be the best cross morph of them all. Also I forgot to add Nerds woma/lesser that is awesome too. The lesser is the key ingredient I believe. It is apparent to me. As a matter of fact I don't know of when lesser cross that I really don't love. I will be the first to say that when we hatched out the pastave we were hoping for something more dramatic. Kind of a pewter thing. You just don't know what will happen. I still really love pastave but it is what it is. Look what the cinnamon did to the pastel. I saw that pewter and got one from Graziani that year. Anytime you make something new for the most part and if you have to say "did I make that cross" you can count on it not being that dramatic. You never know. Who would have ever thought that nerds woma crossed to a lesser would look that great? It does and I haven't even seen it in person. Don't get me wrong I love all my snakes and we have just about over 700 right now and growing mostly morphs and het females. Also the lesser makes the cleanest white snake. I don't even have a super lesser. So I have everything to loose by saying that because I don't have one. The reason I like the leser Mojave cross is becasue you can breed it to simple recessive stuff and get everything het for it not just lessers. But we will be making super lessers also in numbers next year. Pick whatever you like and go for it. I love what I do and I love the snakes. I sold my other business to do it full time.

Joe at MKR
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____

_____

if you actually witness them hatch then how is that miss information just b.c you never witnessed it does not make you right. Are you best friends with Ralph? I have been to Ralphs place and yes i have talked to him, if someone im not saying ralph per say dosent want you to know about something then why would they talk about it. How many mojaves do you own? how many lessers? how many clutches have you produced. Just b/c it dosent happen in every breeders collection dosent mean it is not possible. So by saying it has NEVER happened you would be the one missleading.
Kim

to say things without 100% certainty.

Do you personally know that John Piro DID NOT produce a Mojave in a Lesser clutch?

If not, then how do you know Gail isn't right?

I agree with Gail. She knows her stuff and i know John hes a great guy. I beleive it is very possible. Nothing is impossible in this trade.
Kim

n/p

I am telling you Ralph and I have had over or close 200 lesser to normal clutches. There is some lesser's out there also producing for people. Noone else did that. Please it is ridiculous. How many super mojaves are out there and lesser platinum mojave crosses. They don't do that. It takes more than one person making a statement. It has to happen just like supers. And I have a question. The person that started this post does she have any first hand experience with lesser platinums? I have hatched over 60 clutches. Will have probably another 20 this year. I don't see what the problem is.

Joe at MKR
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____

_____

I am going to breed my Mojave Poss Het Hypo to a few normals and poss Het Hypos this year, and I had better get a Butter AND a Lesser, along with some Mojaves, or I will be sending Gail a nasty email HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHA, ok, I will settle for a few Mojaves, Hypos and a Hypo Mojave.....

Gail, if it is not obvious, I am just kidding, and the above is tongue in cheek.

Dave

if a breeder did get a Mojave in a Lesser clutch, they wouldn't be telling the world. They would, LIE.

Say it was from another male, or different clutch alltogether. Multiple sires and retained sperm HAVE happened, so it is something buyers would believe.

Most of the breeders are going to say or not say things to keep markets strong (they don't kill business like the idiots on the classifieds). Yes, even if it is a lie.

I do not think it would necessarily lower the value of a Lesser if it could produce a mojave. I know the lesser would go down if you could produce it from a majove though. (reverse)

I completley agree with you... well said.. I also agree with your other posts...
Thanks Kim

how many people making criticisms are behind the curtain in the Ball world.

I don't work with Ball Pythons, but through my work I am direct friends with many of the breeders we are talking about.

Part of the reason I don't use names, includeing my own.
Maintain integrity and knowledge

Like wise.. People dont understand that just b.c i am not using direct examples and exploiting facts isnt b/c i am "lying" I respect my fellow breeders and know that there are certain things that are to be kept "un" public so to speack. So people can think what they want. I love this trade and alot of the people in it, hopefully everyone understands what i am saying and they dont think i am in any way insulting any breeder.
im just saying that anything is possible in this trade, just b/c someone hasnt seen it yet dosent mean it has not happened or isnt going to happen. I also agree with MK that there may be other situations at hand, its very possible.
Kim

there may be other factors here. BUT, I will not say it is impossible.

If Lavender Albino X Lavender Albino bred together, produced offspring that appeared as regular albinos then they would have a Phenotype of Reg. Albino, but a genotype most likely of Lavender Albino. The only way to prove a genotype is to either breed the animal to be sure, or to know the genotypes of the parents.

It gets pretty confusing, especially in the designer morphs(more than one trait expressed in one animal) since the different traits express themselves differently sometimes in conjunction with other traits. Good example would be Graziani's het pied combos, can't remember what the crosses were, but they definitely appeared much differently than a normal het pied would.

-Dan

The "Lesser Platinum ?" that EBN brought in last year?

In Daytona, I, and a lot of other people, said it looked like a REALLY COOL MOJAVE.

BUT, it was from a Lesser breeding done by Noah in Africa.

Anyone here saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a Mojave from a Lesser, needs to review some things. How many times did we think something was impossible.

I am sure if a few years ago we said, "breed five different morphs together in any combination and you'll get a white snake with blue eyes," everyone would think you were crazy.

Gail has done a lot of work with Mojaves and Lessers, along sid some of the BEST breeders in the country. I wouldn't be so quick to discredit her.

If you read my post i said why would you brag never once did I accuse any breeder of lying. But look at the facts how many times has a "new " morph been unveiled to the public months to years after being produced. Just b/c a breeder dosent want the public to know about something new just yet dosent mean they are lying to the public.

It does bring up a good question as to how these two mutations are related. We know that lesser X mojave produces a white snake as does lesser X lesser and mojave X mojave (with some apparent differences in the small sample size so far). It will be nice to see more breedings of those white snakes to be sure that the two lines are the same gene (i.e. that white snake X normal can't produce normal, only the parent type(s)).

But even if they are mutations of the same gene and also if the darker lesser line animals do turn out to look the same as the lighter mojave line animals it still doesn't prove they are the SAME mutation of the same gene. They could still be DIFFERENT mutations of the same gene (alleles). Unless we have some way to look at the actual DNA it will be hard to be sure if the differences in the different lines are caused by differences in the white snake mutant gene or differences in other genes in the line. When you look at the extremes like phantom vs. Vin Russo vs. Lesser it seems that there surely must be some actual different mutations involved her. That would tend to make me believe that the different tendencies of the mojave and lesser lines probably indicate some basic difference in the actual mutation and not just family resemblance due to other genes in each line. Both have been bred to enough different normal females that family resemblance due to other genes should have broken down by now.

But with distinct different mutations of the same gene it might get hard to sort them back out now that crosses have been made. When MKR breeds their lesser X mojave white snake to normals will they be able to for sure say which half of the babies are lessers and which are mojave's? What about once people start breeding white snake X white snake. If someone breed a lesser X phantom (aka karma) to a mojave X Vin Russo would you be able to identify for sure which of the babies in the clutch of white snakes where each of the four combinations? It might get a bit tricky.

Where do the differences between super mojaves and super lessers come into play here? You can clearly see that a super mojave does not look like a super lesser... neither snake is 100% pure white but the super lesser is much closer to all white than the super mojave.

do mojave X lessers look more like super lessers or super mojaves?

Before the super mojave was produced and looked different than the super lessers I leaned more toward the idea that they where the same mutation with the differences being other genes in the lines. But now seeing the distinctly different apparent homozygous lesser, mojave, and phantom I'm leaning more toward the idea that they are different mutations of the same gene. Of course breedings may yet prove them different mutations of different genes so who knows ... it's still early.