Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

Thanks for all the responses below. I still have this problem. Anyways, here is all the info I could think of. I have 1 female in each tub (which will change soon since I am moving them to a rack system with tubs the same size as the Large Freedom Breeder RAT rack). I feed them all lab block. They always have fresh water available. The current day-time temps are 80-82 degrees and nights can get down to 76-78. I rotate 2 males among my 6 females. The females usually have 2 litters in a row and then a break. I bought both males and all the females from the same place. All the females usually have between 10-16 rats pups. After 1-2 weeks, all the babies look very skinny, and start to die. If I cull the litters down to 2-3 rats pups, then 1-2 usually survive. Here are my conclusions, so help me anyway possible because my babies (snakes) are hungary.

1. All my rats may have bad genetics for producing milk, thus the babies die shortly after birth (1-2 weeks).
2. My temps in my room are to high, and moving them to the basement (basement temp is usually 65-70)would correct the problem.
3. I keep them all on Pine, which is somehow bad for the rat babies and they die.
4. Keeping females alone is bad. I could try to keep 3-4 females together so they can help each other nurse once I get bigger tubs.
5. I never provide material for them to make nest in, thus the babies are born on the pine and die??

Anyways, please help with any and all responses and TIPS. I am going to build a rack soon because I am starting to have a larger collection of snakes, which I would like to feed on a more regular basis.

HOOPY

Grab one of the females that has babies that are not thriving. Hold her up to your ear and listen to her breathing. Do you hear rattling and gurgling?

I have had this failure to thrive you describe before, and almost every time the female had a severe respitory infection, which causes her to produce less or substandard nutrition. I suspect the babies also become infected, but it is harder to tell with them as rodent pinkies/fuzzies are naturally resistant to hypoxia. However, a baby having difficulty breathing would also have difficulty feeding, which would cause it to wither away and eventually die of malnutrition.

Listen carefully to the females breathing. If she is rattling, I suggest putting her down and starting over. If she is not rattling but you observe sneezing or discharge/discoloration on her nose you can attempt treatment. I have used over the counter treatments meant for ferret and rabit respitory infections, as well as antibiotics. Both seem to work a little, (I've not found anything that works "Well", just minimally) but only if it is early in the infection. Once they get to the rattle I've never had one return to strong production.

Good luck

I had some similar problems not too long ago. I noticed a big drop off in production very suddenly and it was due to the food. When I first started breeding rats I fed them ONLY "Cheapo brand dog food" from the local feed supply place, $12/40#. Then I thought I'd try the rodent lab blocks $25/50#. Well, I noticed that they didn't produce NEARLY as well with the dog food as they did with the rat blocks. I found a great use for rodent lab blocks though. With 1/2" hardware cloth the dog food falls through too easily, I simply put a nice layer of the lab blocks on top of the hardware cloth in the feed area, then I put tons of the dog food. Less dog food falls through, and I've noticed that they really only eat the dog food. But the lab blocks are available to them.

You should consider feeding dog food, higher in protein. Momma rats need strong protein levels for producing that milk. However they SHOULD still be able to breed just fine on the lab blocks only. So that means that you probably do have a bad blood colony. Consider buying a couple new males unrelated from somewhere else.

Commercial rodent food is fine for nonproducing rodents but is lacking in the protein and added requirements needed for pregnant and lactating mothers. It could be, since you only use the lab pellets that they aren't getting enough nutrients to ensure proper milk production.

I give my rats dog food, fresh fruits and vegetables at least every other day, and the heals from our bread loaves. (With three kids, we go through about 3 loaves a week.) I buy small a bag of hamster/rat/mouse diet once every couple months and mix it in with the dog food as a treat, more than anything else.

For someone with just a "pet" rat, the commercial diets are great but carrying and nursing mothers need so much more. Try mixing dog food (puppy for even more added nutrients) into your rat food and give them a mixture. I'm sure it will help.

Also, rats are very social. I would keep 2 mothers to a bin and let them share the work with the babies, as well as keep eachother company and groom eachother. It will be beneficial to their well being not to be alone.

Hello,

I would love to start using some dog food mixed into the Lab block, but what king can I use that won't slip through the grates. I have a wire top that I would think would let the dog food slip right through. Anyways, any suggestions would be great???????

Regards,

Jerad H.

I don't know if it is large enough not to fall through the grate on your set up. The pellets are round and between 3/8ths to 1/2 inch in size...just enough to really hurt when you step on them!! Yes, I have messy dogs. LOL!

Some brands of dog food have large pieces for large dogs. You may want to look into that, or resort to putting dishes in for your momma rats. It's better to deal with dishes than to keep losing your litters.

I know the small breed stuff has smaller pieces, so I might guess that large breed would have larger pieces

"cheapo" brand dog food. many feed supply places will have a house/generic brand. Check to make sure you're getting the proper levels of protein/fat and so forth. Also ensure you are NOT getting ANY red dyes in the dog food which will be passed to your snakes and become detrimental.

I've found the best dog food for my rats also happened to be the cheapest generic version. Do some research at your local feed supply warehouse.

I don't think your doing anything wrong. I've fed dog food and/or rodent lab blocks and done fine. My animal house is constantly 80F to 95F during the summer and my rats continue to produce. I've kept them on pine, alfalfa hay, or alfalfa pellets and they've done fine.

I think you either have an illness in the colony or poor bloodlines. The answer for both is the same. Put them done and feed them off. Wash and sterilize everything. Get new stock from a different source.

DeMak

Unless you have some hairless in your line I don't think genetics is an issue.
I do wonder if you bred them really young and that can be an issue in milk production 'cause the mom is still using all her energy for growth and tends to starve babies.
Otherwise my list would be to up the protein and feed a dog kibble not the blocks. I have never had good luck with blocks.
Give them a month off, take out the male for a good month, with no pups to feed and see what rebreeding happens after then.
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Sonya