Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well,

This year my 4.5 yr old beautiful red female (one of the nicest animals I ever produced) was finally ready to breed.

After laying 2 eggs...she decided to stop laying.
2 weeks later and after every trick in the book including 3 attempts at oxytison, surgery was the only option to save her life.

I'm happy to say she survived the ordeal, and has finally built up the strength to resume feeding. Looks like she'll make it, but breeding is not in her future.

The eggs are infetile, and my only other female (a huge 7' girl) did not become gravid, even after multiple breedings from 3 different males.

I love these animals, but I've grown weary of all the worry and losses. I believe it's time for me to hang it up.

I'm going to keep a few "pet/ education" animals, but I beleive my indigo breeding days are over.

I had a hell of a run an indeed became quite confident in the '90's and early 2000's. I did not have an egg bound animal
in over 10 years...and all of the sudden the odds caught up to me in full force, and I've had 3 in as many years. I'm moving on.

Good luck to all of you who continue to breed these incredible snakes, and may the goddess of fertility be with you.

May your females grow large and their eggs be slippery.
I hope I never have to deal with another egg-bound animal!

Sorry to hear of your troubles Dean!
Hope all is well now.
I always wonder if the closed gene pool has anything to do with the snakes becoming egg bound, being born "stunted" and with kinked tails???
Anyway, kick back and take a break. Maybe you will get the itch again. I know everytime I think I'm out, the herps pull me back in!!! LOL

Take care

I too am sorry to hear of this, Dean. You have been a great motivator, wealth of information and invaluable champion of Eastern Indigos. Glad to hear you will be keeping a few and continuing with your educational programs.

God bless,

Jeff
-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Dean, it will always be in your blood. I suspect it may even bite you again the urge to breed Big Black Snakes. Thank you for the years of information keep in touch I have a feeling you will always be around.......Bill
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

While I understand and appreciate the reasons you cite for your decision I have to say I feel a great loss.

I am glad I was able to purchase some of the snakes you produced. They are by far the finest reptiles I have ever owned and I thank you for giving me the chance to experience them.

You aren't getting our of snakes altogether, are you? If you do, we all know you will be back!

Good luck and thanks for all have done and will do!

Mike

Thanks everyone for their kind remarks.
I'm a herper at heart and I'll never get out of herps!

It's actually more a part of my life than ever, but I'm changing gears and heading more toward education / conservation.

I'm going to be involved with indigo stuff to some extent I'm sure until I die...it's never going to be out of my blood. But, It's difficult living in Cincinnati to be very active in conservation of a Florida / S GA native. I'm going more toward the "think globally , act locally" mentality.

As always, when I do something I become completely obsessed....er..."passionate" about it.

I'm working hard on developing a herp conservation committe in SW Ohio, and making good strides. We don't have Drymarchon in SW Ohio, but there are some pretty cool herps still here.

This article will give you a good idea of the kind of things that I'm working on within the GCHS...lots of projects on the table.

www.cincyherps.com/conservation-details.php?id=4

That is impressive, both on your part and DuPont's.

Dean - that is a great success story in your newsletter about your local Jefferson's salamander habitat preservation, thanks for sharing it. As a field biologist, I have to say that if one only has so much time and energy in a life, it's better spent saving habitat than captive breeding, even impressive species like indigos. Captive breeding plays a key role in some cases, but habitat preservation is THE key factor in ALL cases.

I know you know all this. Just thought your success story following your post about getting out of breeding indigos should be taken by readers of this forum as inspiring, not depressing.

Craig Stanford

Craig, you hit it on the head. Sure, captive breeding of an endangered species has a "feel good" ring to it but in the end, its developing sound conservation management programs through habitat protection and restoration, when needed, and getting involved with those programs (either through financial support or volunteering as stewards/etc) that will ultimately save this species. I don't find Dean's decision depressing or sad in the least, contrary to what other's are saying, in fact, Dean probably feels a sense of relief....I know that's how I feel as I am following Dean's lead (something I have actually been doing for some time now). My focus, in this neck of the woods (N.E. Illinois region) is the conservation of the Eastern Massasauga and a few other herps in need. Dean's experience will continue to be integral for all future dry keepers.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Dean - that is a great success story in your newsletter about your local Jefferson's salamander habitat preservation, thanks for sharing it. As a field biologist, I have to say that if one only has so much time and energy in a life, it's better spent saving habitat than captive breeding, even impressive species like indigos. Captive breeding plays a key role in some cases, but habitat preservation is THE key factor in ALL cases.
>>
>>I know you know all this. Just thought your success story following your post about getting out of breeding indigos should be taken by readers of this forum as inspiring, not depressing.
>>
>>Craig Stanford
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Thanks Rob...

I still need to get up there and see your place one day.
I want to learn more about your projects.

Dean

Hmmmmm,....
Respectfully, I disagree.
I believe that our planet, and it's atmosphere;ie climate, are currently undergoing serious changes. I also believe that if these changes are severe enough, they could bring about the extinction of many wild species populations,...indigos included. If that happens, all that will be left, are those indigos produced in captivity. So it won't make any difference how much land we set aside, or how well we protect the animals on that land, if we can't fix the climate, they will be doomed anyway. If not because the environment has become too hostile for them, than because it will have caused the extinction of food sources, or the extinction of gopher tortoises. Am I right or wrong? Only time will tell. If I am wrong, then all that conservation work for wild populations will be effort well spent. If I am right, then all that captive breeding work will be absolutely priceless. And we will need all the breeders we can get. Don't underestimate the value of captive breeding. Some day, it may be all we have left. If we want to save the wild populations, it seems to me that the first priority for that endevor should be in saving the planet. In order to do that we must stop burning fossil fuels, and start using birth control on a massive scale. And we should do it yesterday. I'm sure that some of you will voice an opposing opinion, but if we look at the signs which have been provided by modern science with respect to global warming, and now something called global dimming, ...and if we connect all the dots, I don't see any other outcome. Unless we take serious action now. And as long as we keep arguing over what's what, with regards to climate change, it's causes, and effects, we won't do anything about it. So sooner or later the wild population will be gone. When that happens, we'd better have plenty of private breeders, and we'd better have a diverse captive gene pool. Just my 2 ecnts. Good luck and good will.
T.

There's really nothing to agree or disagree with....your comments were right on. To me, though, captive breeding to save a species even at the expense of having no more habitat left to allow them to live as they should, I feel that the efforts would be a bit futile but certainly better than extinction. Captive breeding has its merits and I feel strongly that the private "dry" community has contributed much to our knowledge of producing an animal in an artificial setting that could one day be instrumental in saving this species from going extinct. But, if the species is going extinct because we have ruined their habitat, then the efforts of captive breeding are in vain in my opinion (and its just my opinion). Don't get me wrong, if a captive setting was the only refuge for eastern indigos, I would rather see them there than extinct...but that would be just such a sad fate. For some of us, re-directing our focus on the conservation of habitat and working with various organizations to do just that is a far better way to utilize our resources to save endangered species(but once again, that is just my opinion). For those who are truly committed to saving eastern indigos, my challenge is to do it for the right reasons.....GIVE 'EM ALL AWAY TO ZOOS, MUSEUMS, NATURE CENTERS and any conservation program looking at truly saving these creatures. I think most would say "no way"; I need the money (and I was one of them although I made a commitment to only sell 20% of my hatchlings while the rest were donated to the aforementioned institutions...still, I'm a hypocrite in every sense of the word).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Hmmmmm,....
>>Respectfully, I disagree.
>>I believe that our planet, and it's atmosphere;ie climate, are currently undergoing serious changes. I also believe that if these changes are severe enough, they could bring about the extinction of many wild species populations,...indigos included. If that happens, all that will be left, are those indigos produced in captivity. So it won't make any difference how much land we set aside, or how well we protect the animals on that land, if we can't fix the climate, they will be doomed anyway. If not because the environment has become too hostile for them, than because it will have caused the extinction of food sources, or the extinction of gopher tortoises. Am I right or wrong? Only time will tell. If I am wrong, then all that conservation work for wild populations will be effort well spent. If I am right, then all that captive breeding work will be absolutely priceless. And we will need all the breeders we can get. Don't underestimate the value of captive breeding. Some day, it may be all we have left. If we want to save the wild populations, it seems to me that the first priority for that endevor should be in saving the planet. In order to do that we must stop burning fossil fuels, and start using birth control on a massive scale. And we should do it yesterday. I'm sure that some of you will voice an opposing opinion, but if we look at the signs which have been provided by modern science with respect to global warming, and now something called global dimming, ...and if we connect all the dots, I don't see any other outcome. Unless we take serious action now. And as long as we keep arguing over what's what, with regards to climate change, it's causes, and effects, we won't do anything about it. So sooner or later the wild population will be gone. When that happens, we'd better have plenty of private breeders, and we'd better have a diverse captive gene pool. Just my 2 ecnts. Good luck and good will.
>>T.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I have to chime in and agree with Rob, as the protection of natural habitat harboring the macro and micro environmental needs of D. couperi is essential to preventing the species from becoming ecologically extinct. I say ecologically extinct, as I believe there are enough folks, in both private and public facilities, working with captive specimens to prevent D. couperi from going the way of the dinosaur, at least not prior to the demise of our own species. Unfortunately, I believe we are at a great risk of losing the wild populations, especially those in Florida, if we do not get a grasp on the damage to natural habitat caused by urban sprawl and agriculture.
I also agree with Rob, regarding good stewardship of the Drymarchon we produce. Personally, I started selling half of the offspring my animals produce only two years ago, as I gave all that I produced to a variety of academic, natural history and zoological entities in the past. You will find the benefits of giving offspring to various institutions, large and small / public and private, include opportunities to advance your own collection and a warm fuzzy feeling, acquired from giving, which does wonders for the soul. Besides, it’s nice to visit a facility and see your contribution at work. Now, having said that, don’t be surprised if some facilities respectfully turn down your offer. should this happen, don’t be offended, as many facilities simply do not have the luxury of time and space to take on another project. It’s a bit more difficult and time consuming for institutions to disperse of offspring and most are already very busy with pre-existing projects…

Best regards,

Jeff
-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

The success story of the salamander’s watering hole was great.

The success (so far) in my incubator also falls on you and your willingness to share information. Take a break from the breeding scene then come back when you’re ready. Take care Dean.

Dean, I completely understand your situation and your frustration. After experiencing a similar run of good fortune, my ability to put forth the kind of effort to maintain a large, successful breeding group of indigos became such burden that I dwindled my colony some time ago. With what looks like now my second year of getting skunked despite multiple breedings with a female that has always yielded excellent results, I started re-thinking "what am I really doing to promote indigo conservation?". My strength, probably like you, is in education and running my own herp facility that focuses on education is where I need to narrow my focus. Although its important to be able to provide quality hatchlings to museums, zoos and nature center's in this species' natural range, it looks like there's a new crop of indigo breeders that I only hope are doing it for the right reasons. I probably gave 80% of my hatchlings to museums/zoos for the sake of conservation education and I would encourage those who are having good fortune to continue to do this. My focus is turning more towards saving the Eastern Massasauga in this region and establishing a captive breeding colony for possible future release (lots of hoops to jump through so this is very early on). Indigo's will always be number one in my heart though and I will probably always have to have a couple around. Like Dean, I wish everyone much success and perhaps when my kids are older, when I turn over this facility to someone else, and, I have some time on my hand, I'll get back into like I did back in the late 80's/early 90's....right now, I'm burnt out a bit. Dean, just because you are not going to breed eastern indigos for now doesn't mean that you can't share your years of experience in working with them, and, observing them in the wild. You were very successful, and, are still very successful as far as working with drys go. Make sure you share that experience as much as possible.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Well,
>>
>>This year my 4.5 yr old beautiful red female (one of the nicest animals I ever produced) was finally ready to breed.
>>
>>After laying 2 eggs...she decided to stop laying.
>>2 weeks later and after every trick in the book including 3 attempts at oxytison, surgery was the only option to save her life.
>>
>>I'm happy to say she survived the ordeal, and has finally built up the strength to resume feeding. Looks like she'll make it, but breeding is not in her future.
>>
>>The eggs are infetile, and my only other female (a huge 7' girl) did not become gravid, even after multiple breedings from 3 different males.
>>
>>I love these animals, but I've grown weary of all the worry and losses. I believe it's time for me to hang it up.
>>
>>I'm going to keep a few "pet/ education" animals, but I beleive my indigo breeding days are over.
>>
>>I had a hell of a run an indeed became quite confident in the '90's and early 2000's. I did not have an egg bound animal
>>in over 10 years...and all of the sudden the odds caught up to me in full force, and I've had 3 in as many years. I'm moving on.
>>
>>Good luck to all of you who continue to breed these incredible snakes, and may the goddess of fertility be with you.
>>
>>May your females grow large and their eggs be slippery.
>>I hope I never have to deal with another egg-bound animal!
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Jeez, I have not even had the chance to tap you yet. But you were next on the list. You are not allowed to leave either. Although, the Eastern Mass project is wonderful (being a primarily hot keeper). But, no, not you either.

B W Smith

Even though I am most likely getting out of large scale indigo breeding, I have kept many careful notes and observations and am always happy to share my many years in working with this species. Many folks around the U.S. have my hatchlings and many of those are now grown up and producing future generations and hopefully, these people will be able to positively influence someone else. My hope is that anyone breeding "drys" will give something back by donation animals to zoos, nature centers and museums in areas where they are native to; there are quite a few looking for some. Like Dean, I'll always have a couple of indigos around and if they breed, great, and if not, no biggie; I'm just enjoying them and enjoying using them for education. My primary focus is on our native herps of N.E. Illinois but I still have a passion and sincere interest in getting involved with all herps that are in peril.

>>Jeez, I have not even had the chance to tap you yet. But you were next on the list. You are not allowed to leave either. Although, the Eastern Mass project is wonderful (being a primarily hot keeper). But, no, not you either.
>>
>>B W Smith
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

With as much study and information on indigos as you've done, getting an egg-bound snake has got to be just demoralizing.

Over the years we've all seen plenty of hard-core dry keepers get frustrated enough to move to other projects. Knowing that you, THE Dean A., who has done more for D.couperi than anyone I can think of, is turning in his breeder badge, well it's just a good demo of how frustrating these snakes can be.

I'm not very far behind you Dino. I have an ancient male who has probably reached the end of his reproducing years. I'll probably just use loaner breeders for my 2 young females. When He's gone, I'm going to replace them with another type of Dry.

The herps of Southern Ohio have scored the jackpot with their newest advocate.

Best of luck in all your herping adventures Dino,

Doug T

very nice post douglas, well put! i too am very, very saddened to see one of the foremost crusaders of the great american serpent hang it up but on a brighter note, he's needed & wanted in ohio where's there plenty of work to be done there i can assure you! yo dean, any chance you could work pennsylvania into your schedule? lol! best of luck & please keep us posted!

PA is a little far from SW Ohio...

...but thaks for the encouragement Dan.
I'll keep everyone posted.

I hope you still hang around, your experience and character are second to none!

Ian

Right as we FINALLY get everything hammered out here, nope, not gonna happen This is a project that you have been working on for quite some time and we finally got the go ahead. You can't just send me to the plate without a coach. This project is too monumental in Georgia. You are not getting off that easy. Nope, won't let ya. Don't make me drive up there

B W Smith

I'll always be around as a resource and for coaching.
I'm just not breeding them personally.

I'll do anything else I can to help you...

Awww, Dean... that is such a shame and I am sorry to hear it. *hug*

We hope to see you down here again and soon. Your presentations are a lot of fun and very informative. Everytime I walk by the champagne at work I get a good giggle and think of you.... Toad Hollow winery has a sparkling wine called Amplexus, rofl.

I want to thank you yet again for your invaluable advice. Third year in a row:

Thank you LD.

I'm so glad to hear that you are doing so well with the Spilotes!
I'm sure I'll be back to LSVLE before too long...just not sure how I'm going to top the Amplexus video!

heh, I'm sure you'll find a way

WOW. That is all I can say.
Your knowledge and assistance on this forum is invaluable. My Texas Indigo I got from you is the greatest herp I've ever owned. I for that I owe you a huge debt of gratitude.
Take care Dean, I wish you the best of luck with your new endeavor. Thank you again for everything.

Justin Campbell

I just want to echo Justin's comments. I bought my first Indigo pair from Dean in 2002 and I just truly love these snakes. I am so psyched to have a few eggs this year, and I owe much of this success to Dean.
Paul

-----
Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Dean,

This post truly caught me off balance. I guess that I didnt expect it. But I know only too well how this can transpire. Years back, I had a female egg bind on me, went through the whole vet scenario complete with vet and home Egg aspiration, with all its risks to the snake. And the use of OXY.

It was a very stressfull period for me...

In 2005, after going through severly hard times economically, and having a massive heart attack and undergoing heart surgery,I found myself with no snakes whatsoever.

This year in 2006, I have had ONE heart surgery, last week. Im barely recovering from this now.

So,I understand setbacks. Especially the one that you experienced. I *Totally* agree with you when when it comes to the sheer difficulty of consistantly getting good eggs with no egg binding.I truly dont think that people understand just how hard it can be to produce these snakes on a consistant basis when breeding a small group of them. Hit and miss seems to be the by word here...

I have a female that I am raising up now, and my male "SCARFACE" back, courtesy of "The Man" Robert Carmichael. But I dont have any huge breeding plan to produce more easterns than anyone. In fact, I dont have any plans of HAVING to produce any at all. If it happens, then it happens. If not...Im still addicted. This was really never about money anyway. I think Rob C. is right, a whole new crop of breeders is on the horizon, some with single pairs and others with multiple snakes. I just hope that these snakes dont become the "Vehicles" for profit that boas, pythons, COLUBRIDS(Of one flavor or another and another) have. I dont equate higher sales and people getting into them as a means to make money as a conservation or consciousness raising endeavour. It isnt. Its capitalism, pure and simple, which often doesnt actually benefit the actual species involved. The business end of this is easy to burn out on..

YOU have done a LOT for this hobby, and a lot for Dry's and people that keep them. Id like to say to you that you will be sorely missed, but I dont worry cause I know that "EMPTY CAGE SYNDROME" (ECS) will kick in after about 4 months or so

Yep...youll look at those cages and MISS your Drys.

And youll get more , maybe from me. Thats if I am lucky enough to produce any.Maybe Ill produce a bumper crop of pie bald easterns. And then again, maybe Ill get skunked. Or get out of them alltogether. And get some of Dougs Mussurunas, and get bit, and get on T.V. and become famous!...lol

And the cycle will start all over again..

It truly is a sickness :~)

**Afflicted for life,

Fredrick Albury

PS
Email me when you get the time. Dont be a stranger, your knowledge is still INVALUABLE to those would be Indigo breeders that come on here.

Sorry to read about your female, and sorry to read you'll stop breeding indigo. I've started keeping couperi and succesfully breed them thanks to your article and post on this forum.
Ciao
nazzza