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nquirery

edtheherper Apr 27, 2006 02:27 PM

A few questions from a long time herper that sees hybridization as a breath of fresh air to the hobby (please forgive the typos I am on a lap top and I suck @ latin):

1) Has anyone successfully hybridized blood (or any short tails) to any of the P. Molorus group or P. Sebae group?

2) Has anyone tried or been successful in hybridizing any of the Moriela ssp. to P. Reticulatus or P. Reguis

3) Are P. Reguis X P. Curtis hybrids fertile & are there any F2 animals around?

4) Anyone successful in hybridizing Epicrates C. ssp. to Hatian boas? or Epicrates ssps. to Amazon tree boas or Candoia?

5) Anyone successful breeding Boa ssp. to any of the Madagascan boas?

6) Elaphe Vulpina ssp. to Elapha g. g. (corns)

7) N. American Elaphe to Asian or European Elaphe?

8) Lampropeltis Alterna to L. Calligaster ssp.?

9) Lampropeltis t. elapisodes to any other Lampropeltis t. ssp?

10) Elaphe or Lampropeltis to N. American Coluber Constricor ssp?

11)

12) Any ssp of Gecko Hybrid (not intergrades but true hybrids) floating around (I have never seen but I am sure that with al the breeding of the Eyelid Geckos there are bound to be attempts at African fat Tail Leopard crosses)?

13) Finally any Ctenesaurs or Iguana Iguana or to Cyclura or to each other?

13) Are there any posted photos of above animals?

Replies (5)

honuman Apr 27, 2006 02:29 PM

I can't answer for any of the snake hybrids. I know have seen A crested gecko crossed to a Chahou. Very impressive looking animal.

Steve

edtheherper Apr 27, 2006 02:48 PM

11) (was supposed to be) any Elaphe Subocularis to Elaphe Obsoleta or Guattata ssp. hybrids?

-also anyone working on hybridizing Apsidites (black head to Woma), Liasis (to Python ssp.), Moriela (carpet or scrub) to M. Boeleni (which seems difficult to produce fertile offspring-perhaps male infertility or interest in captivity), Papuan pythons to Liasis or Moriela, or the spotted python family (to the carpet Pythons or to P. Reguis)?

Like I said I think this whle areana is fresh and exciting and can usher in a new wave in herpetoculture...as long as animals are fairly represented. Several years ago I produced a clutch of Drymacharon C. Couperi X Drymacharon C. Melanurus...I wish I held on to a few because I recently saw one of the babies (sorry no pic) and she is now a slate grey 7' monster (with orange chin). Alas, divorce-the great end all to the efforts of many private breeders, but I am still greatly interested in the taxonomical relations of species and plan to get back in the hobby (almost strickly hybridizing to help establish taxonomical relations of Python to the IndoAustrailian ssp and the old world boa ssp. vs. the new world ssp. to produce new animals and determine the fertility of ssp x ssp & sp. X sp hybrids)

Perhaps through Hybridizing we may be able to produce truly "domesticated" reptiles that better suit captivity (in temperment, size and physical beauty). One day it might be nice to see an albino blood python burmese hybrid or a dwarf retic jungle carpet hybrid...who knows maybe even a fertile jungle carpet ball cross that proves to be fertile...well at least I know I not the only one that is excited by these prospects!!!

Thanks guys for the interesting posts and pics!

edtheherper Apr 27, 2006 03:25 PM

Sorry I know I keep adding and it must be a bit annoying but a few more ssp. I wanted to inquire about:

1) They say that the long nosed snakes are closely related to Lampropeltis...well has anyone bred this species to any Lampropeltis sp.?

2) Long ago I read that the glossy (Arizona) snakes are closley related to Pituophis and/or Elaphe has anyone bred these together (I know there are several fertile Pituophis X Elaphe floating around)?

3) Finally has anyone done any work hybridizing Heterdon ssp. to any of the N. American Natricines or other N. American Colubrids?

aberlour Apr 28, 2006 12:49 AM

Well to start it is a wide open field right now as you said. Many of the species have yet to be consistently breed together and most do not have much of any record kept on them for future reference other then perhaps the breeders own. This is one of the things that HBA hopes to accomplish with a long run of public data collection and photo history from various breeders and interested herpers from around the world.

One of the other things HBA is interested in is Conservation through eventual breeding of domestic cultivars that would not be available for collection from the wild. In doing so we hope that we can remove some of the demand for WC specimens so that herpetologists can focus more on ecology based conservation efforts.

We also feel the domestication of hybrids might also help to provide healthier animals that deal with the everyday stresses of captivity and cope with a wider range of husbandry styles. Too many reptiles simply can not cope with the conditions they are handed in the pet trade and this could go a long way in helping to end that problem as well.

To try to answer some of your questions there's no way I'm going to be able to answer them all so I'll just focus on the ratsnakes.

Arizona eligans
Pantherophis Obsoleta
Pantherophis vulpinus
Pantherophis Guttata
Pituophis melanoleucus
Pituophis deppei
Bogertophis rosalaie
Bogertophis Subocularis
Lampropeltis ruthveli
Lampropeltis getula
Pseudelaphe flavirufa
Senticolis Triaspis

All of those north American snakes have been studied using molecular systematics and are now believed to have diverged from the same branch of Elaphe. Due to this common ancestry and all of them having 36 chromosomes they have both a high likelihood of producing viable offspring with a high percentage of fertility. This probability though is diminished depending on the amount of genetic drift that each species might have accumulated since their divergence.

Due to the proven viable and fertility offspring between these Sp. groups: Lampropeltis ruthveli, Lampropeltis getula, Pantherophis Guttata, Pituophis melanoleucus, Pantherophis Obsoleta, Pantherophis Guttata. Which makes up about half of the complex from that branch. I would guestimate that if fertility is proven between any of them and say Senticolis Triaspis which is beleived to be the furthest divergent Sp. in the overall evolutionary complex of this particular Elaphe branch then you would be more likely too also have viable offspring with some of the euro-asian Elaphe branches provided that there aren't any major pre or postzygotic barriers that have developed since their divergence.

To my knowledge there hasn't been any attempts to date between the new-world and old-world ratsnakes or related species. However HBA is still young and hasn't yet reached out to every breeder working with hybrids.

To answer your question about:
9) Lampropeltis t. elapisodes to any other Lampropeltis t. ssp?
Intra-specific hybrids A.k.a intergrades are the most commonly found hybrids in the wild more than likely if someone hasn't breed these in captivity there could be record of them within a specimen collection at a university. I would check the web for these as you can more than likely find at least some trace of them provide there are hybrid zones that exist with any two ssp. in them.

Hope that helps a little.
-----
Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

goregrind Apr 27, 2006 07:09 PM

when i first realized hybrids were possible i was just as fascinated.

you should check out hybrid haven for your interests with python hybrids and the hba for your interests in domestication and tax. hope to see ya there, check out my links in my sig
-----
jake

my addiction:
0.0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1.0 amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

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