Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anybody ever read this?

http://www.biol.vt.edu/faculty/andrews/andrews&donoghue04.pdf

any thoughts from expericenced breeders?

Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

I have no scientific proof (ie: I haven't experimented with this myself in a scientific fashion) but...my FEELINGS are that their comment "Our results do not support the hypothesis that moisture acts as a cue or the termination of diapause" is right.

It also makes sense that eggs should hatch at the time of year that would allow the neonates to survive and grow well....lots of food available.

I still have questions though.

What about temperature, do you think an increase in temperature would trigger the end of the diapause or, it would end anyway after a while? I know somebody suggests to increase the temp after so many months of incubation, others just keep the same temps (with minimal fluctuation) for the entire incubation and eggs hatch.

I am not sure if you've read my post about egg incubation. I though you would be one to ask to. My female cham. first cluctch it is now at 4 monthh; the other day I had a suspect of few eggs starting to mold (just smell, but couldn't see the mold) I moved them and separate them in new cups. Do you know what coud be causing this? I didn't change anything in my incubator ...I think that if something was not right, they would have gone bad much earlier...
Do you have any advice to give to this regard?

Thanks, Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

I'm answering you post about the incubation of your eggs here along with the one about the paper. I'm no expert, but I will tell you the best that I can.

Its not unusual for part of a second clutch after only one breeding to be fertile...but if most or all of the first clutch is fertile, I have found that the second clutch isn't usually totally fertile. The timing of the mating within the female's cycle plays a part in this.

If there is NOT any mold growing on the eggs, then I wouldn't worry about it although if you move the eggs carefully to a new container, it shouldn't hurt.

You said that some still had "some sand on top so I thought those could be the ones going bad"...usually the sand won't cause a problem if its washed sandbox sand. I don't know if any other kind can be a problem or not since I only use washed sandbox sand in the egglaying chambers.

You asked..."Can anybody tell me how long can take to an egg to go bad if not fert."...usually a coupe of weeks.

You asked..."what could be the reason for start molding at 4 months?"...it could happen if something contaminated the container or the eggs are going bad/dying for some reason.

You asked..."If anything changed in the incubation, how soon will I see the effects on the eggs?"...lower moisture/humidity changes should show up fairly quickly by dimpling in of the eggs. Other than that...I'm not sure what to say. (In this post you said that nothing changed.)

You said..."I incubate at 72-79/80 (fluctations), humidity in the incubator is 30-40%, in the "test cup" is 82-85% (have 1 cup with thermometer probes and hygrometer and no eggs, same mixture of vermiculite/water and holes in the lid as for the cups with eggs)"...temps sound good...I never measure the humidity. I go by how much moisture is on the lid and sides of the container the eggs are in for veiled eggs.

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You asked..."What about temperature, do you think an increase in temperature would trigger the end of the diapause or, it would end anyway after a while?"...not sure what to say about this. All I can tell you is that when we have had a heat wave part way through the incubation, the eggs have hatched sooner. I never tried to find out if diapause had ended.

You said..."I know somebody suggests to increase the temp after so many months of incubation, others just keep the same temps (with minimal fluctuation) for the entire incubation and eggs hatch"...my veiled eggs are incubated at about 78 or 79F with fluctuations due to the incubator being open to room temperatures. (My incubator consists of a wooden/screen form placed over a people's heating pad set so that the temperature in the containers is right. The containers are set on the screen.)The only fluctuations or changes in temperature are due to room temperature cooling at night and warming up during the day. If we have a heat wave, then it eventually reaches the area where the eggs are kept....and like I said, if the eggs are a good part of the way through incubation, they hatch earlier than they would normally when there's a heatwave.

You said..."I think that if something was not right, they would have gone bad much earlier"...I would have thought so too...but I have seen some eggs look good until well into the incubation only to have something go wrong and the eggs failed (not with veiled eggs though). Some eggs are more sensitive to changes in the moisture in the container and some to heat fluctuations.

You asked..."Do you have any advice to give to this regard?"...don't throw out any eggs until you are sure that they are no good. Some surprisingly bad looking eggs have hatched for me.

Are all the eggs that are going bad the same size as the ones that aren't? Have you had any dimple in? Have they grown since they were laid?

Hope this has helped!

Thank you so much for the information.

Yes, the eggs that smelt like mold are the same size as the others. All the eggs laid in the 1st clutch were the same size, they all grew since ovodeposition at about the same rate, I could definitively tell when I saw the 2nd clutch in which also the freshly laid fertilized eggs were smaller than the eggs form the 1st clutch already into the 4th month of incubation. Now few look plump but not as bright white as others. Never saw any dimpling. I was concerned that it was too much humidity (even if I didn't add anything to the media) so I made few more holes in the lids in each cups and I am keeping an eye just to make sure they don't dry out. The ones I have separated are not smelling mold at this time (changed cup and vermiculite).
During these last 4 months and now I see moisture on the side of the cups and lids only when the temps drop overnight, during the day, when the temps are ~79 I can see condensation only on the side of the cup and only where the vermiculite is (that means the lower part of the cup). At this point I guess that the humidity could be actually lower than in other incubation??
Every months I weight the cups and they loose weight, so I guess they are loosing moisture?? and I am in conflict. I added some water in the vermiculite (avoid to touch the eggs) only at the beginning to match up the original weight of the cup (should I keep on doing this?) but the last time I did it was a month ago.

I would ask for a last suggestion in this matter: would you recommend to let the media dry some (just in case the moisture was too mnuch)? Will I be able to get the eggs back if they start to get too dry?

Thanks again.
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

You are welcome for the information!

You said..."Now few look plump but not as bright white as others"...do they have patches of a more beige color on them? Eggs that are getting ready to hatch will often get what are referred to as "windows" in them (which are the discolored areas that I'm talking about). As they get closer to hatching, they can also sweat and shrink in size. Nothing is written in stone when hatching chameleon eggs...some won't get windows, shrink or sweat. It will be a surprise (but not unheard of) if your eggs are showing signs of hatching already. Mine always took closer to 7 months to hatch....although I did have at least one clutch hatch a lot earlier when we had a heat wave.

You said..."I was concerned that it was too much humidity (even if I didn't add anything to the media) so I made few more holes in the lids in each cups and I am keeping an eye just to make sure they don't dry out"....sounds fine...as long as you keep an eye on them. Veiled eggs are one of the more tolerant chameleon eggs when it come to levels of humidity....but I'm sure that even with them, there has to be a point where the humidity can be too much. I have never had a veiled egg "explode" from taking on too much water....but I have seen it happen in other chameleon eggs.

You said..."The ones I have separated are not smelling mold at this time (changed cup and vermiculite)"...that's got to be more comforting!

You said..."During these last 4 months and now I see moisture on the side of the cups and lids only when the temps drop overnight, during the day, when the temps are ~79 I can see condensation only on the side of the cup and only where the vermiculite is (that means the lower part of the cup). At this point I guess that the humidity could be actually lower than in other incubation??"...not sure what to say about this, but if your eggs are not dimpling in when the container is the dryest, then I wouldn't think that the humidity was ever too low.

You said...."Every months I weight the cups and they loose weight, so I guess they are loosing moisture?? and I am in conflict"...I would assume the same thing.

You said..."I added some water in the vermiculite (avoid to touch the eggs) only at the beginning to match up the original weight of the cup (should I keep on doing this?) but the last time I did it was a month ago"...I don't weigh the containers. I don't even measure the ratio of vermiculite to water when I first set up the veiled eggs. I just seem to know from my past experience when its right. I'd make a poor scientist, eh??!! I only add water if there is no condesation on the sides at any time during the day or night or if the eggs are dimpling.

You said..."would you recommend to let the media dry some (just in case the moisture was too mnuch)?"...this is a hard question to answer. I can't tell you how much it too much. There are still a lot of questions in my mind about the humidity levels for hatching chameleon eggs...but mostly how much water the eggs take on as a result of the humidity. (How much water can be absorbed into the eggs without causing embryo death/egg "explosion"? How does the level of water in the eggs affect the air exchange? Is the amount of water the eggs have absorbed "always" important or more important depending on the temperature that the eggs are being incubated at?)

You asked..."Will I be able to get the eggs back if they start to get too dry?"...the quicker you notice the dimpling, the better chance you have of the eggs recovering from being too dry. I have seen some pretty severe cases of egg dimpling end up recovering.

Good luck! Let me know when your eggs hatch, please?

I will definitively keep you all posted when they hatch or,...even before, if more questions...he.

Yes, the discoloration consists of patches of beige colour. It sounds way too early for hatching though, and I have been monitoring the high and low temps for all the incubation period (I DO have a scientist head...believe me when I say I weight vermiculite and water when I mix and, still, doesn't mean it is the right ratio since I have never incubated reptile eggs before!) and never had too high temps ...

Based on papers seems like tempearture do affects the water intake by the eggs. It could actually be higher at higher temps.

Thanks.
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish