Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey I was wondering what was goin on with the fire price. I know they go down but not that far down. Last season males were 25k and females were 40k and this season they are 10k for males and 15k for females. So why do they go down 15k for males and25k for females I mean thats just a ridiculous drop in price. Any thoughts on this would be helpful.
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BPs are B-E-A-UTIFUL!!!!!

Every morph took a huge hit this year, not just the Fire. I know what you are saying though, the Fire price has definately come down. I think animals like Fires, Yellow Bellys, Axanthics, and other "difficult to identify" morphs are taking a bigger hit. People may be unsure if the animal they think they are buying is actually the morph they think they are getting. There are several new lines of Fires, tons of new YB lines, etc. Bottom line, the entire Ball Morph market took a huge hit this year. I think the ceiling for Ball morphs has come down, which in turn has brought all prices down.

Dave

Which, if any, of the 'new lines of Fires' have produced blackeyed Leucistics?? If these 'new lines' haven't been proved to produce blackeyed Leucies,they cannot be called Fires.
Eric Davies

I do not think any of the new lines of "Fires" have produced Lucies. I called my possible Fires, Embers, to stay on the Fire theme, but will not call them Fires until they do produce a Black eyed Lucy. As for what others call theirs, it is up to them. I see people calling wc snakes YB's without ever proving them with an Ivory. I see people calling wc snakes Fires without ever proving them with a Lucy. I personally will not call the Embers a line of Fire until I prove them out, but the similarity is there for sure. I have had people tell me the adult female that laid the Ember Eggs is a Fire no two ways about it. Like I said in my first response up above, with Fires, YB's, Axanthics, before "I" would sell any animal that is not an Albino, and obvious as to what it is, I would breed it out. The Embers ARE genetic, I just do not know if/what, the Super will be. Some others may think they are experts and call a wc animal an Axanthic, Fire, or Yb without proving it out, that is up to them, IT IS THEIR snake. Do I agree with calling a newly imported animal a proven morph, no, and as soon as someone sells a wc Yellowbelly as a Yellowbelly and it does NOT prove out, we will hear about it, same thing with a Fire, and then we will have this discussion all over again. So, what do you think of these pics?

Dave

Hey Dave
You are rite.Lets face it I have been talking to breeders who sold their Harleys cars 2nd morgaged houses to jump on the ball wagon.Now reality hits NOTHING lasts forever.Alot of people getting out of balls and going back to the reptiles they love and not for the money.Lets face it alot of people jumped on this gravytrain and now regret it.To me if I sell a 1000.00 snake I am tickled pink.If you have a rack of 10 balls and lets say pastels since they have come way down.Lets say they drop too 200.00 you produce ONLY 5 clutches avaerage 25 eggs only 10 are pastels you still get 2000.00.and 20.00 a each normals another 300.00.This is low numbers but you still made money.No I don't sell pastels for 200.00.But I am having a great time trying too make somthing new and have had luck with lemon back hypo's aka fires.I hope the super does not make lucy's too many combo's to make them I am hoping for something new.Maybe we can with our line.Then we can fight over what to call it.LOL I am fortunate too have several odd variations too try and prove out.Will I get $20,000.00 for something new If I do I will hand deliver and have a bottle of captain and party with that customer.LOL
Just my opinion Don't bash me too hard
Mike

http://forums.kingsnake.com/post.php

Mike, you are da man. I agree with what you are saying, I think the "ceiling" has come down, and the top tier Balls will be under $20K for sure, which in turn, will cause the lower tier Balls to drop a bit in price. And yes, lets cross our two lines, Ember x Lemon Back Hypo next year and see what happens. Very nice pic, awesome animals man!

Great pics Dave.
They look great.Can't wait for next season.You going to daytona .I'll get first round.LOL
Mike

First off I would like to begin by saying this is my opinion and I'm willing to discuss it with any one. I'm not looking for an argument just saying things the way I see it and offering a possible resolution for the long term thinkers. I read a lot of journals I'm sure you can figure that one out. If you really sit down and think about the current situation it really does make sense.

Its unfortunate the $20,000 balls are becoming an oddity but the market is salvageable. At current trends yes we can still turn a profit. The thing that's killing it is people willingly lowering they're prices for the sake of a quick sale. If we hold tight to our prices I think over-all values will hold constant and possibly rebound. What's the worst that can happen you have another potential breeder for next year? Or you can ask more for it when it gains weight? We have to keep in mind snakes don't pay the bills (in most of our lives) yes they can fund other things but we should not rely on that. We think short term that's the problem. Look at the big breeders who only release a limited quantity of a morph or even hets each year? In some cases common enthusiast don't even hear about them until its been proven out 5 years prior (give or take). Does it not hold its value? It sure does! Why's that .. Because they're not lowering the prices. The problem is people are over exposing things and the consumer gets tired of seeing the price drop and they think the sky is falling, eventually prices get so ridiculous people wont but them. They think they are the next normal and the consumer will hold tight until they are priced as that. I do not own a single co-dom (that I know of) because I was thinking the same thing a lot of us are thinking now. Not that co doms are bad because they're not, but when you see a price fall down in-between when you wake up on Monday and go to sleep that night how would you handle that. Personally I would wait for the weekend for the prices to drop when people are getting desperate and cutting prices more. Wouldn't you? Put your self in the shoes of the common consumer...wait that's us (most of us). Desperation for a sale is the problem. The people that introduce these morphs hold no desperation for a sale nor will they entertain the thought of selling it lower than the intended price. There's no such thing as easy money because it turns into a wave that we eventually get tired of riding and it's hurting the hobby we enjoy. Money money money...it ruins a lot of things lol I will continue to maintain my collection as long as I am physically able because no matter how you think, reptiles in general will always have some value even if you send it to the pet store. No matter how I look at it I enjoy unwinding in my pet room the morphs are just a bonus. Why not save what we can while we can. Sure there are going to be the vendors that do what they do best (sell cheap) but why contribute to cheapening our breeding projects.
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we're here because a hobby became an obsession... if only every one had this much fun

some days your the dog, some days your the hydrant...don't know who started this saying but it's the truth

The problem with that is The big name breeders are the first to say hold your price.And then they get a low offer and will sell saying don't tell anyone I gave you a great deal.Most big money morphs are mostly done in trades.I am not bashing anyone .I raise reptiles cause I love it.I have all kinds of them not just balls .But lets face it I can't keep evey snake or monitor I produce I have to sell Because of space funding new projects feed so on.I would love to keep all my babies.But of course I can't.I am not saying I sell my highend stuff cheap.But I do make deals Especially to someone starting out.There excite ment is a great thing.The same feeling I get when I can get something I want to try and breed.Hell I was excited when I got my first pr of bearded dragons.Not to long ago.It is like watching croc,monitors hatch out.I have some cummingi I wouldn't take a million dollars for.Price and demand is all it is.Just my thoghts.
Mike

you made a great point and i'm so glad you presented it non-agressively.. I agree 100% and yes helping the new guys get a foot in the door is a good feeling lord knows I had some help. I was generally adressing advertised prices and cut throat practices... by all means prices can be negotiated on a 1 on 1 bases I just dont like when people advertise and compete to the point where its ridiculous... I guess I was a little vague on my last post. There are always exceptions but I was speaking in general sorry for any confusion. This is after all a discussion so I would definately like to hear some more.
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we're here because a hobby became an obsession... if only every one had this much fun

some days your the dog, some days your the hydrant...don't know who started this saying but it's the truth

in theory your statements are great, but that's just in theory. This isn't 10 years ago or heck even 5 years ago, there are hundreds of ball python breeders out there now. There are thousands of these morphs produced yearly now. If anyone thinks differently than they need to wake up. Take pieds for example. If one breeder can have over 200 on his web page for sale at any given time, and yes I know Pete was the founder of the morph than just think how many are actually being produced every year and that's a recessive trait, the codoms are even more plentiful. We can say hold your price all we want but in the end there is Joe Blow that is selling his snakes locally for hundreds if not thousands less than the "market" price. Me personally, I don't list everything I have in my signature nor have I ever sold a ball morph to the general public, but those that say we should advertise a high price just to give the impression that these animals are selling for thousands more is just wrong and even more damaging to the market than lowering your price publicly. That technique of selling our product will put us in the same class as used car dealers (nothing wrong with them if anyone is one, lol). I talk with several large breeders on a continuous basis and there is mixed emotions about where this "market" is going. Granted there will always be money to be made but the days of having a few snakes and being able to quit your day job are gone. We have to work hard to produce higher quality animals, higher numbers of animals and be realistic in our asking prices so that the average herp keeper will be willing to pay to own these beautiful snakes.

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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

yeah too bad theory's dont work lol I don't know whats going to happen to the market but either way it goes im still going to work hard and I understand what your saying. I have mixed emotions about the market and I can agree with just about any opinion out there..well not the selling off part (for me anyways) lol. Im glad im not in the position where I counted my chickens before they hatched but unfortunately look at how much some of the new guys invested and may loose a big portion of it. I understand the market is going to change and prices will drop but 50% a year on co-doms? Yes the ideas of holding tight to our prices seems a little off I didnt mean to retain the prices till the day we die but 50% a year just seems to be too much (in my opinion). Trying to have a standoff with "John Doe" isn't realistic because he will always undersell you, yeah i accept that fact so what can we do? We should be able to find a solution for that... wait drop production? nooo! can't do that!..well what else? hahaha The main purpose of my RANT part of the thread was to be broad enough to get some replies and some new opinions We should be able to come up with something. I'm interested to hear what some of you are thinking.
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we're here because a hobby became an obsession... if only every one had this much fun

some days your the dog, some days your the hydrant...don't know who started this saying but it's the truth

the main thing that we should think about is this, no single morph is going to command the supper high asking prices for long. however, what we should be doing is crossing the morphs together (like the corn guys do). The little guy can't do that the first or second year of production but after a few successful clutches they have the money to buy a couple other morphs in which they can cross. Me personally that's what I'm doing. I bought the spider male with the intention of being the first person to produce a citrus ghost bumblebee, will call it the hornet ball if the colors from the citrus show up like I think they will. I bought my albino female to cross with the spider and then the next year with a pied for some double hets, it's all about what we can make with all these morphs out there. and lets face it, there will be a time when these solo morphs will be worth just little more than albino burms and if anyone has a problem with selling off a clutch of animals for $1500 that only cost $150 to make they have problems, just make more clutches.

PS now just think of the combo with these 3 animals.

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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I agree entirely. All the combos we can make are endless. What I dont understand is people selling for way less than what theyre worth. To someone who has morphs to cross and make some cool stuff they would be more valuable to keep say pastels instead of giving them away. I know pastels are taking a major drop because they were the starter morph for many people last year. Also how can the new guys even make a sale without giving them away??? Im seeing everyone with a obo. on their pastels now. Id rather just keep them if you have crosses to make, theyre way more valuable that way. Heck, if youve produced a few females replace normals with them....Just my rant thanx. Jason Matheson

im excited to see those combinations! lol
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we're here because a hobby became an obsession... if only every one had this much fun

some days your the dog, some days your the hydrant...don't know who started this saying but it's the truth

The problem is not with the pricing - the problem is with the production - if there are only 20,000 people that will buy a pastel at $1000 and there are 50,000 pastels produced annually then there has been an overproduction so the only way to go is to the next pricing level and then to the next.

It's a catch 22 if you want to make a lot of money you really do need to breed less (and that means the entire industry). There are way too many snakes being produced for the market to hold. 100 clutches from one breeder of a single morph is eventually going to flood the market and drive prices down - they aren't going to hold back all those snakes and all the offspring from all those snakes forever. And the market is not expanding at a neverending rate.

We all know that those $20,000 snakes will be down to an afordable $5000 or $2500 in a matter of a few years - why buy now - to get a jump on the competition to breed a whole bunch before that price drop? Well that thinking is what causes the price drop in the first place.

The thought that if you hold onto them and sell them bigger you will make more money is ridiculous - unless you want to feed them until adult size and hope you can find that one person that in three years doesn't have an adult (insert name of whatever morph) for their project so you can sell it at 3 or 4 times the current market value or approximately the same price as it was as a hatchling.

And the idea that all of those new combinations being made will help hold a morphs price - who came up with this one? - Just because the pastel does 8 new combinations then it did last season that is going to drive the price up? Once people have the snakes they will work their way into their own projects on thier time - the only people in a hurry are the big breeders and those out for money.

In 10 years that $20,000 snake you bought last year will worth the same as the $5,000 snake. Unless of course you've bred it to death in which case my snake will be worth much more.

Now I'm rambling so I'm off to get my morning coffee!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

_____

signature area

Edited on May 3, 2006 at 17:08:13 by phwyvern.

i see what your saying but i personally think that the bigger the snake the more money it can sell for. I breed my own rodents so the feeding cost is next to nothing to me. This whole market seems to be driven by opinions right now. I'm interested to see whats going to happen in the future. Im glad to say no one has really had a bad opnion so far. The replies are appreciated as always
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we're here because a hobby became an obsession... if only every one had this much fun

some days your the dog, some days your the hydrant...don't know who started this saying but it's the truth

The day of the 20k snake is long from over. The fireballs have finally decreased because it has been a few years since they were out. Now although there are only a few people that have them, there are going to be more this year. I own one, and I have had this discussion with Mike Wilbanks, and this price drop is to face the reality that the black eyed leucistics are competing with the other leucistics. Simple as that. I think another reason why they had to drop is because they haven't been bred with other morphs yet, which is what drives each and every morph.....it's a ball python that gets brighter with every shed, and should make some interesting combos!! And sure there are more people dropping prices on all morphs, but this is completely expected and normal. They may want/need money, but a few can't affect the overall market. It's all simple supply and demand. And I have to add, those that can wait and be patient and not freak out everytime someone drops their price will sell for more than that person. When everyone changes, then it's clear the market has. And as I said, the day of the 20k snake is far from over. Every year new morphs are being sold to the public, and as long as they keep coming in and being rare, and breeders keep proving traits genetic, why would they sell for less than 20k? Even the second year? Has anyone even read NERDS book under the unproven morphs section? Do you really think they will be selling less than 20k? NO! It's just those that invest the higher prices will make much more in the end. If I bought a fire last year at 25k, and produce 3 males, I made 5k profit!! And do you REALLY think I'm only going to produce 3 males (that's another 10k profit PER male)? And what about the females at 15k (and don't forget that both these males and females I can use for trade for the high end morphs...or low end morphs for resale)? And what about how much I'm going to make NEXT year and every year following? And what about when I'm making new combos for buy/trade value or to produce even newer morphs? And what about when I'm one of the first to produce black eyed leucistics? I hope that's enough to prove my point. There will always be people buying/trading for 20k morphs for this very reason. And I can promise you, that I'm going to be one of them!!

I love your excitement.I hope you are wright.But I don't believe that there is alot of people that have 20,000.00 to invest.The average breeder hopes to produce enough to pay his bills and have enough left over to get a new morph.Which is about 1000.00 to 5000.00 And that is after he has been doing it for 5 years.VERY FEW new morphs are coming out of africa That we will pay 20,000.00 for The risk is high.and even if you get it to eat and raise it up it still might not be genetic.And the market is so vast that here in the states you can pick a number of proven morphs to get.Remember I do it cause I have loved reptiles my whole life.It has been the last few years that it has become popular.Of cource they will be a cool new reptile all the time being discovered.Canary chondro very cool.Albino anacondas.Yellow tree monitors real tree monitors.Albino carpet albino blk heads.I think all my reptiles are worth millions but noone will pay that.LOLI am just saying that to expect that kind of money from 1 reptile is not gonna happen alot.
Mike

You're right, a lot of people don't have 20k to invest. At this point there aren't that many snakes out there....that's why they're 20k+!! And most people that can afford that are those that have already produced snakes before, and either do a full trade or a partial trade. But the trade is a powerful deal when you have a 20k snake. Someone generally gives you value and a half (probably less in a case this much), which means that when you sell those, you actually made more money than off of a 20k snake in the first place.

And you're right, the average breeder just hopes to get a new morph, and pay his bills. But it's all about how many snakes you produce. If you only produce a few, then this is what you end up with. But I don't care what someone says about producing less for the market.....I'm not producing less!! I'm going to make the most I can. Why? Because the following year the price is going down anyway, and I want to take my breeding seriously. If anyone has noticed......these are investment snakes. And please, don't think I'm in it for the money. Money is great and all, but I consider myself the true fanatic. I produce a lot of snakes because it's fun to hatch them out, I get to see more variation than the average breeder, and I end up with lots more new morphs at the end of the year!! It all boils down to how prepared you are when you invest. Having one or two females is great, but why wait until you have five? Until they are all a little bigger? Females are the best investment out there......and it's always get some every year, so every year you have more that get up to size for your new morph.

And yes, very few are coming out of Africa, but that's normal. How many 20 snakes have there been each year? Very few, meaning right on track. And I personally know of a few more new unproven morphs that these large breeders are trying to hide. Trust me, there are more than you know!! And here's where the big breeders really get screwed.......they HAVE TO buy these unproven animals taking the risk that they won't eat, or won't breed, or won't be genetic. Why? Competition!! So much of their money goes to getting the next potential thing before someone else does, to remain a big breeder.

Perfect example: The Crystal Ball

There's what? ONE in existence at the moment?
I'm sure when more are produced and one is finally available for sale it will sell for more than 20K.

Heck, the Pewter sold for $45K not even two years ago.
Now they are around $10k if my mind serves me...
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-Man fears the beast in the Wolf because he does not understand the beast within himself.

I don't think pewters are 10k yet, but maybe after this year!! And yes, it's those people that invested 2 years ago that not only have more pewter females, cinnamon females, and pastel females, but get what they traded for, new combos they made (just think of Exotics by nature breeding his to a genetic stripe), and whatever they made monetary wise last year. And now I am willing to bet they will make more than 4 this year, too!! This stuff is so much fun.........

.
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billy jean king
BugBusters

Also keep in mind to adjust annual drops relative to the annual production potential. All other things being the same an 05 will produce a year earlier than an 06. What is that extra year's production worth? If a co-dominant male produces only two extra morph offspring that first year he could offset a 50% price drop. If he produces 4 morph offspring that first year he can still make a 100% return on his initial purchase price even with a 50% drop in the price of the morph. Sure dominant type morphs drop in price faster but they can also be reproduced much faster.

I blame Africa.
I think the same reason why Fires are cheaper is the same reason YBs are cheaper. Africa knows the prices we sell animals for and knows how to identify and breed them. CH YBs and Fires are cheaper then proven lines, but i beleive at least 90% will pan out to prove. If you dont want to risk it then a proven line of Het Ivories or Het Lucys will insure you that you will get what you pay for.
People call lots of balls YBs or Fires, which is fine. But proven lines are called het for ivories or lucys. I understand that they are co-doms but its a way of weeding through proven or un-proven lines.

Whoa Whoa Whoa, 25K for a snake? You do mean 25,000 dollars right? people pay that for a snake? and also does anyone have a fire, I'm curious as to what they look like.
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1 Ball Python named Rick James. He's the original superfreak.

Anybody with money can buy a 25k snake...and produce the hell out of it and make lots of money....its not hard. The reason that these "high end" morphs are going down in price so quick is that people are doing exactly that. They buy one 25k snake....a couple normal females and breed the hell out of it. They have no foresight into it...they just want the money right away...they aren't thinking about cool crosses or preserving the market at all. Most probably don't even have other morphs to breed them to because they spent all their money on that one morph...
Its just the wrong people getting ahold of the right morphs....
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

So buying one $25K snake and a couple of normal females is breeding the hell out of it? Hmmm, really? I think what has happened is this: The Ball market got caught up in a frenzy of one upping the next guy, and the craze caused people to buy and pay whatever to get the next new/big thing. I think the frenzy has finally died down, and the prices will level out...hopefully.
By the way, I have a Yb male and a couple of normal females, I have my Ember Ball and a couple of normal females, I have my Mojave poss Het Hypo, and a couple of normal and poss het Hypo females for him, am I breeding the hell out of them.....? Far, Far from it! And who do you classify as the "wrong" people?

Dave

Seems to me that anybody that has been around balls for the past few years already knows that the prices on Co-doms drop 50% EVERY YEAR. This isn't the first year, it has been happening every year and will continue happen every year. Supply and demand. The price of recessives hasn't budged much at all in the past 2 years. Albinos went from 2500 to 1800, ghosts went from 1500 to 2500 (females), and clowns haven't moved much... so that pretty much shoots down the OMG!!! the ball market got into a frenzy and now it is crashing idea...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

I think you need to reread my posts, if you are talking about me in your post. I never said anything about a crash, that is your word. I said there was a frenzy, now the frenzy has died down a bit, and the market is stablizing....nothing more, nothing less. The crazy money people were throwing around without thinking, I think those days are over, and the Ball market will stablize, and people that rode out the stablization will be happy they did, those that sold off everything for pennies on the dollar, will want back in.

So I am dropping $545 on an '06 Lemon Pastel male...and by the time I breed him, the pastels will only be worth $250.

Great...
So much for starting out with Pastels and moving my way up.
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-Man fears the beast in the Wolf because he does not understand the beast within himself.

1) Females are always higher.

2) How many are you planning to hatch?

bah
You have already lost...,by putting a price on offspring you haven't even hatched yet....It's not about the money..no not really.If it were,then who in their right mind would pay over a dollar for any snake?

What i am getting at is this...eventually pet stores won't even want the plain old brown BPs for stock anymore.Everyone will want the brightly colored ones as pets!
Now you tell me..if normals go for up to a hundred each in retail pet shops,then are pastels ever going to actually drop again?

yeah...i'm a bit cryptic at times...but i'm harmless
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

If you are talking about $250 for a Pastel, that would only apply if you produced all males, or produced both, but only sold males. Female Pastels should hold their value much better than males. You might be able to get a small "premium" if you snakes are traceable back to an actual NERD lemon.

Dave

people pay for quality... keep quality lines breed to quality girls and you should do fine. Unfortunately there will most likely be some one competeting to sell it $50-100 less than you. I saw pastels last week for $300 no kidding and yes I saw them in person. It happens
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we're here because a hobby became an obsession... if only every one had this much fun

some days your the dog, some days your the hydrant...don't know who started this saying but it's the truth

As everyone has said, females are worth more. And you only plan on making one male? If you breed 3 females (remember, you can breed 7, or sometimes more), 6 eggs each, then that's 18 eggs (I'm assuming nothing goes wrong, and everything does in fact come out in perfect ratios). 9 pastels......let's say 5 males, 4 females. 250X5=$1250 and about 750X4=$3000. So a total of $4250. And this is assuming you don't keep back any females, which holding some could make you more in the long run. Now I know it won't be this clean (but remember you could make more than this). Bad things will happen, eggs will go bad, females will lay less than 6, females will reabsorb, clutches will give you horrible odds at times. But this is fun stuff anyway, and just from my one example here of what could happen your first year if things go well with 3 females. Everyone wants a new morph, and you could easily afford one under these conditions. "Just don't expect to be buying banana clowns from breeding a pastel for one year".......and Tosha, you could quote me on that!!

I was mentioning the people who actually do breed the hell out of them....I'm talking one male to as many females as it could possibly breed in one year with the intentions of making as many as possible. If I spend 25k on one male of course I'll breed it. Especially if people are spending that kind of money on a male for one of their first animals....if I had that much money to spend right away for my first animal(s) I'd spread it around and get a variety of morphs....but people see the one for 25k and plan on breeding it to death (sometimes literally) just so they can make as much money as possible as soon as possible....they aren't thinking much about the snakes or the market...they just want their money. And what I meant as the "wrong" people...are the people who do just that...they don't see the worth in the animals....they just see dollar signs all day.
Why do you think that the bigger breeders have secret projects or projects that they don't want to start selling to the average breeder? They know the worth of their animals and the work that it takes to get to the point where they're at...instead of just selling them to some assclown thats gonna buy one and breed it to 10 females and sell them for half the price.
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

Personally I kind of like morph ball pythons and the idea that eventually everyone that wants one will be able to have it.

Like it or not, the free market has a built in mechanism for making this happen as quickly as possible. High prices stimulate production. The higher priced animals tend to go to more experienced breeders and they get more resources (more frequent feedings etc.). Even within a collection most breeders will dedicate more females to their higher priced projects. Of course they shouldn't be bred to the point that their health is at risk but to try to limit production to hold up prices is to fight against the natural tendency of markets. Maybe a cartel could actually pull it off at the very beginning when only a few own the morph but all it would accomplish is delaying eventually getting it out there for the masses. I suppose it would be less work for the early cartel members to produce fewer higher priced animals but eventually the profits will go to those who are willing to do the huge amount of work to produce enough to go around at a more commonly attainable price.

Of cource you will breed it to try and get some money back on your investment.That doesn't mean you ruined the market.Who is gonna invest 25,000.00 and not breed it you can't fault anyone for
doing that.Maybe I missunderstood your post.If so I'm sorry.
Mike

..... is because there are no such thing a leusistic ball python!!!

Why would anyone buy a snake that just makes a plain old white snake?!?

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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

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Edited on May 3, 2006 at 17:05:02 by phwyvern.

I agree .I would rather have a pied .I like contrast.But lets see what a fire x pastel looks like this year.or any crosses that will be produced this year.They maybe butt ugly.I daught it.
Mike

Here Is One For You ... UnProven So Far ...
Since I Technically Cant Call It A Fire Ball ...
Ill Call Him A PYRO BALL ...

hey He is a beauty.
As far as naming?YOU CAN CALL IT A TENNIS BALL.it is your snake!
Until you prove it out It is not good to call it a fire.The first guy to name fires that produced lucies had that right.For respect to him if it does make lucies then it is called a fire.I call mine lemonback hypos because they kinda discribe the snake.I hope they don't produce lucies and I have something now until I prove one way or the other I call them that.Any way yours is a very nice pyro.
Thanks Mike