Reptile & Amphibian Forums

it seems like there are sooooo many "proven" or "definite" yellowbellys that are captive-hatched which leads me to believe that ybs are actually quite common in the wild. if that's true, wouldn't that mean there are a fair amount of ivories found in the wild/hatched in captivity every year?

just seems a little strange that there are so many ybs around and not nearly as many ivories as there should be...

I don't know how many ivory ball pythons are imported but in general hets should be much more common than homozygous in the wild. The problem in figuring out just how much more common is not knowing how much localized inbreeding takes place.

If 1 out of 200 wild ball pythons where yellow bellies (het ivory) and they where randomly distributed and bred randomly they would only pair with another yellow belly for 1 out of 40,000 pairs. With only 1 in 4 of their offspring being ivory that works out to 1 out of 160,000 wild bred hatchlings being ivory.

These are all just guesses for numbers but it shows how the fairly high number of 1 in 200 hets only produces (with completely random distribution) 1 in 160,000 homozygous.

They export about 150,000 baby ball pythons from Africa a year so with these example numbers that would include about 750 yellow belies but less than 1 ivory a year.

Randy you are a genius! LOL

Oz
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OZZYBOIDS

If I were really a genius I could figure out how to account for localized inbreeding. The example above used random distribution and breeding. In reality related hets might be more likely to breed so more rare hets could create whatever small number of ivories come out of the wild. But even if only 1 in 2,000 wild balls is a yellow belly that's still 75 imported yellow bellies a year.

I think the 75 a year is probably close to reality.

Oz
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OZZYBOIDS

Yellow Bellies have been coming in from the wild for years now. They used to sell for a few hundred bucks as really cool looking normals. A few breeders recognized them to be genetic and invested the time to prove them out to be much more. They have always been very abundant in the wild and many adults and CH babies are imported each year. On occasion an Ivory will pop up in Africa, at least 3 that I personally know of. Pastels are also very abundant in Africa, but I have never heard of a Super Pastel being imported or hatched on a farm.

In my opinion, saying a YB is proven to produce Ivories is like saying a pastel is proven to produce Supers. A yellow belly is a yellow belly, period. They all make Ivories and even better, they make other cool things like Super Stripes and Ebonies. In my opinion, they are the best value for your buck right now.

Others may disagree and would prefer spending the extra cash to be reassured with a proven line... the choice is yours.

Oz
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OZZYBOIDS

Consider the numbers that Randy gave you as an example. Pretty slim chances. Consider the numbers that Oz gave you, 3. How long do you think an all white snake would survive in the wild?
Whether your talking about balls in africa or herping in your local woods, the chance of finding an all white snake or albino are very slim. Not impossible, but they are much more likely to end up being food for some other animal.

From what I've seen Yellow Bellies seem to be distributed anywhere from 1-2% of the population. So, if you import 100 CH Balls you should have 1-2 in there. On the flip side if you import 1000 you should have 10-20. Now, when you start talking 10,000 you are talking quite a few yellow bellies! This would explain why everyone and their mother has their own line of Yellow Bellies. I really like the Ivories but I don't think there is much value in the yellow bellies if there are that many wild caught/ch a year. The Ivories will retain some value for years to come as they are visually interesting.

Corey

I`ve been working for a reptile wholesaler for over 20 years and i`ve been looking for YB balls for the past 3 years. I have found 1 certain YB and a few maybe (but probably not). That`s 1 out of approx. 10,000. So i would have to disagree with your percentages from my perspective. Maybe other dealers have better odds.

i just think its really really hard for a ivory to survive in africa

I would compare the number of Ivories imported from farms as I would the number of albinos naturally occuring pretty much anywhere. We all know there are albino fish in a population, but the odds of that albino fish surviving to adulthood is astronomical. When was the last time you found an albino? I have never seen a naturally occuring albino in any species except for cave fish and axolotls, both of which live in caves.

True,but even if the offspring that holds both albino allels doesn't survive...that still leaves both het parents,and some of the possible het offspring surviving.When they reproduce there will be another group of possible hets(or even another albino,that gets eaten of course).

It's a good thing for us that the albino and piebald genes aren't co-dom...or maybe there have been lines,but they are now extinct?(So does that mean we are saving the calico/bubblegum lines? lol)

Het-ivorys are visable enough to us,but not so vivid that would insure its demise in the wild.

btw...i'm not argueing...just conversing.
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Ivories do survive.. just not in the actuall "wild" well maybe some but... heres my theory.
Africans are smart, very smart. They understand what things go for in the US. They also have their own facilities. Logically if they know that they can produce YBs from Ivories they would hold all of the Ivories and breed them to normals. Once the YB are produced they are then imported into the country. This could be the reason why we dont see many ivories but we see so many YBs this could also be the reason why nobody really finds YBs in normal lots anymore they know what to look for, and are breeding for it.

I think Randys first estimate on YBs out of the wild was very close to the ball park range. Maybe a little on the high side but reasonably close. I know for a fact its high.

I also agree with Oz, YBs are amazing animals and i do beleive that they will all produce ivories, just like pastels produce supers. But i dont thnik many of the YBs coming into the country are CH i beleive they are CB in africa.

Just some thoughts...