Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Blood red morphs have been around for a long time. All other morphs that have been around this long are all over the place, and much cheaper than the blood red.

Simple question, but one I’ve been debating with a few people.

Blood reds were noted to be weak and troublesome. I thought I read that that has changed, and this information was an excellent source from this forum, but before I drop names, I want to find it. I have been hunting that thread, which was some times ago.

Bloods, and even what people call “het” bloods are in high demand even after many years of being bred. It seems logical to me someone would stock up on females and cash in. Nothing negative there, it’s just a normal business move.

Also there should be a lot of older blood reds on the market. And I personally do not see them like older corn morphs. If I do see an obvious older male at a show people want $150, and get it too.

So, why is the blood red, maybe the only older morph, to still be in high demand, and warranting higher dollars? I’d love to hear from blood red breeders. But to prove my point, I point out there are not many.

Thanks
Tom

I DONT KNOW.... but i do have a question regarding bloodreds.....why are they insisting on changing the name from bloodred to "diffused"? i understand they ARE diffused...but they are red. its like just calling a diffused amel an amel...not just a "fire". ya know? i know in the morph guide this year says they would prefer to call it "diffused" but i wanted to know what other peoples takes are on that as well? if you dont mind me using your post. thanks! ~kin
-----
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SNAKIES~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Corns:
.1 Normal (Gertrude)
1. unknown hypo? normal? (Romeo)
.1 Miami Phase (Emily)
1. Amel het Blizzard (Dunesbury)
1. Classic het Hypo, poss het Amel, Anery (Cobra)
1.1 Classics (Henry VIII, Cassy [Emilys babies])
.1 Amel (Pepperoni)
1.1 Hypo zig zags poss het Caramel (Bernard, Abegail)
.1 Classic het Hypo, Stripe (Gracie Lou)

Rats:
1.1 Black rats (Cecily, Willard)

Cal Kings:
1.1 Striped Cal Kings (Skunky, Dweezil)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~LEOPARD GECKOS~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Normal het Midnight Blizzard (Mr. Spot)
.1 Blizzard

~~~~~~~~~~~~~TURTLE~~~~~~~~~~~~
.1 white cheeked mud (Opel)

Heck no I do not mind, and it is the first I have heard of it.

I say blood red, and will period. You do not stop calling a normal corn a normal corn... Oh wait yes they did lol.

sad attempt at humor..

Blood red baby. I love the hypos, had a great one, and one is lose in my house I hope.

I'm hoping to find some at tha end of this year. Related to my other post on soft market.

Also this next year of so may have big changes for me. I may have just a few herps, or I may want to go into more of a business situation. HUGE period in my life coming up.

Where was I, I ramble so, lol

That is all lol

tom

They aren't trying to change the name of the morph. They are trying to use "diffuse" as the name of the mutant that diffuses the pattern in blood reds.

As I understand it, blood red is a selected, inbred line of North Florida corns that are a very dark-red color and have the pattern less obvious than normal. The pattern part seems to be a single mutant. The red coloration is from selection, according to McEachern's Color Morphs booklet from the early 1990s. In other words, it's not hard to outbreed and then get the pattern mutant back. It is much harder to outbreed and then get the color back. Even in an outcross x blood red mating, there will be a range of colors in the babies, with few to none as good as the blood red parent. So you are trying to get the blood red's color and pattern back while including the greater vigor of the outcross. This is MUCH harder than, say, mating two het amelanistics and getting some amelanisitic babies.

Which helps to understand why the price of a good-looking blood red is still high.

Paul Hollander

I totally understand that. But they have been around since 1978ish? That's a good 25 years . 3 years to get to breeding size, that is a lot of generations.

So where are all the old stock? I see lots of creams amels etc.

This I guess leads me to is longevity an issue with them? I see no pictures of old bloods. As people like to say, this is my original breeder of BLANK. Heck good pictures of really good bloods are hard to find.

There is still something missing. IMO

Sorry Paul

"In other words, it's not hard to outbreed and then get the pattern mutant back. It is much harder to outbreed and then get the color back."

The more I read that, the more I thought maybe I did not get it. I hate to be so dense.

Pattern as in diffusing the saddles, or the back ground color? And color as in all red and not orange and red.?

Some day I'll give up and go back to ball pythons lol

Thanks Paul

tom

Maybe I can help shed some light on the bloodred issue, as I have done a lot of research on them.

The original bloodreds were said to hatch very small and were very hard to get to feed, hence a lot of them did not survive. The original bloodreds were outcrossed to other snakes in an effort to get a hardier snake. To a certain extent, that worked, but, as Paul stated above, once they were outcrossed, it was almost impossible to get the dark red color back. As Paul states, a lot of the current bloodreds that stem from that old stock are rather orange in comparison to the originals.

There are still some of the original old stock bloodreds around, but most of them are up in years now.

There is, however, a new line of the old-style bloodreds being bred from some wildcaught specimens that were found somewhat close to the supposed location where the originals were found.
This new line throws much hardier babies that are easy to get to feed. And they are as dark and patternless as the originals!

I'm proud to say that I am the lucky one who saw his breeder female and recognized her as exactly what everyone had described the original bloodreds as looking like. The gentleman who is breeding them was not aware of how special his bloodreds were. He is now (!), as several of the better known breeders got babies from him after I told them what he had.

Leslie

>Pattern as in diffusing the saddles, or the back ground color? And color as in all red and not orange and red.?

The pattern mutant, diffuse, and its effect on the saddles. And color as in all red and not orange and red.

Leslie, glad to hear about the collection of new, more vigorous blood reds from the wild.

Paul Hollander

OK, I started to over think it I guess, and was thinking of the BR's that are orange and red. In a sense these 2 colors make a pattern.

I will email everyone an aspirin after the dust settles

tom

>>>Pattern as in diffusing the saddles, or the back ground color? And color as in all red and not orange and red.?
>>
>>The pattern mutant, diffuse, and its effect on the saddles. And color as in all red and not orange and red.
>>
>>Leslie, glad to hear about the collection of new, more vigorous blood reds from the wild.
>>
>>Paul Hollander

-----
ontogeny recapitulate phylogeny

Charlie Mike

God knows all, and as man finds parts of that all, god changes those parts of all. Then he laughs at us!!!
(Me)

1.3 Bearded Dragons (Eenie, Meanie, Minie and Moe is the Male

6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock) All Named George
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope (All corns named Ray Guy
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs, Michigan, Doc
0.2 Cats,, Sassie and Spooky (all black cat)
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!) I call her (BOSS)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

One of the reasons that bloodreds are so in demand is that they are an 'ingredient' in a lot of the newer morphs being produced.

People are breeding bloodred lavenders, bloodred butters, crossing them with charcoals to produce pewters and with anerys to make granites.

There are still a lot of 'combinations' to experimebnt with.

Leslie

I understand the desire. main thing was the age of the morph and why they are not available in the same numbers as the other morphs that have been around so long.

Kathy had a pretty good answer.
-----
ontogeny recapitulate phylogeny

Charlie Mike

God knows all, and as man finds parts of that all, god changes those parts of all. Then he laughs at us!!!
(Me)

1.3 Bearded Dragons (Eenie, Meanie, Minie and Moe is the Male

6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock) All Named George
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope (All corns named Ray Guy
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs, Michigan, Doc
0.2 Cats,, Sassie and Spooky (all black cat)
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!) I call her (BOSS)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

is that in the early days, they had a well deserved reptutation for producing large numbers of small eggs that hatched difficult to start babies. Once they were outcrossed with hardier strains, their health improved, but the inbred "look" was diluted. So a lot of people got out of bloods for a long time. Recently, more people started working with them again as they realized the babies being produced now are not really any more difficult than other babies, and that there is a lot that can be done with them, both in improving that original "look" as well as combining with other morphs.

So the demand has been up the last few years, and breeders have been catching up to it. I suspect that soon the demand will be met as breeders gear up, and that prices may come down. But because they are quite variable, the price for a really nice one may stay high for a while.

Another factor is that once people start seeing the "pied sides" and they begin to be available, I think it might get new people excited about bloods. How much and how long that affects the market for normal bloods remains to be seen.

Thank you Kathy.

That all makes sense to me. The second wave of blood reds. It also fits timing, in the number of year, as you described it.

I was so hoping you or Don S. would respond. The only thing I still somewhat question is why we do not see older stock? Corns can live a long time. Working retail, I see a lot of peoples older snakes. And of course the older morphs. I just do not see ANY older bloods on the market.

The only thing is they are like female beardies. Serious breeders snag them up, and they know the value and they never are seen again like some of the other morphs. Add in the mid period of, ask you say, people getting away from them and I guess I have the answers to the missing blood reds.

So, how’s them hypo bloods doing?

I've added a picture of my first blood red. She was at our shop, I was just back into herps, she wasn' selling, i thought she was cool, I TOOK HER lol. I had no idea of corn morphs at that time.

I'm not sure if you recall, but we emailed about her. Sadly after her first clutch, she died. And not knowing the value of the babies They were all sold but he one I kept. And she got loose in my house last year.

But, she got me hooked on the brighter blood reds. I guess she is more towards the hypo bloodred? As the blood reds I see that size are very very dark.

thanks again Kathy

last year or the year before (I think). Those two were the old, dark red types that were not het for anything. They were good breeders well past the 10 year mark. I was sorry to lose them, but this past couple of years, I have had a new generation of bloods and hypo bloods that have been really exciting. I am in the process of taking photos of everything for the ACR, so eventually you will be able to see everything - the good, bad, and the ugly, lol! I have a nice mix of all!

If you meant that you don't usually see adult bloodreds for sale, there is a great reason for that - the babies sell so well! I just sold a couple of extra male bloods for a lot more than for most adult corns. I get people asking me for adult females all of the time. But the babies sell so well and usually do so well for me, that I would have to charge a fortune for an adult female just to equal one year's worth of her eggs. People would think I am crazy to ask what they are really worth. So it is usually better to just keep the females and breed them.

I am really looking forward to a great year on bloods. My first babies (not bloods) just pipped and are starting to come out now. So it is about to start all over again!

Sorry to always hear of a loss. But it sounded like a great blood.

You kind of matched what I said. Adults are just to valuable to slide into retail. And if they do, they go fast.

I have not chatted on ACR for some time. Each time I hit it it was slow. But IRC is also dead. Or kids chatting about something. Sorry kids lol

I'll be looking at the bloods, but I also see striped bloods too. So many bloods and so little money. I've broke down to selling on ebay like I use to just to get some spare cash in my pay pal my kids can not take out of my wallet

Good luck with all your stuff. I hope everyone has a very productive year. So many new snakes seem to be coming out.

take care

tom