Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Juat curious if anyone has any idea what a huge mess is about to occur concerning all Lampropeltis. Just to raise a few points...I;ve heard that the only Lampropeltis that will be left is getula, all others will be moved into a new genus. I also heard that alterna will be grouped with the central triangulum and temporalis may be elevated to species or something. Any thoughts? Here's a pic for good measure...

I haven't heard all that but there is some change coming. Don't know if I buy it all though. Still having trouble with pantherophis!

Hey Tony...I think we met on the RR one night when you caught a splendida...Anyway...I realize that change can be a difficult thing to accept, but in this case I believe that we should all be open minded. Taxonomy has been based on ecology for the most part in the history of herpetology, so now that the technology in genetics and evolution has grown, I dont see why it is so hard to accept that we were wrong about a lot before. Sure it takes effort to learn the new stuff, but hopefully when it's done it will be final. We can use certain genetic information (as you know) to identify the relationships of these animals and the evolutionary diaspora, so its kinda obvious that once we identify a relationship based on hard evidence, it's kinda hard to refute it. Anyway...How about a nice clean gentilis this time...

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n/m

yes i heard about this,but that's it;wish i could actually read something about it,but all i can find is peoples' opinions on whether it makes sense or not,lol.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I just emailed 4 people from the governing council of SSAR. If this is true they should be able to give some answers on it or at least confirm it. I have asked for details of any possible changes. I will let you know when I get a response.

This is a response from the former president of SSAR. Not exactly a straight answer to my questions, but a good lead for sources of information.

" The taxonomy/systematics of amphibians and reptiles is a dynamic field and changes are continually being made. Check the scientific literature in journals such as Copeia, Herpetologica, Journal of Herpetology, Systematic Biology, various museum publications, etc., for latest information. Although you didn't ask about amphibians, I attach the latest taxonomic revision for this clade, which includes numerous new genera and families.

Janalee P. Caldwell
Curator, Division of Herpetology
Professor of Zoology
Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History
2401 Chautauqua Avenue
University of Oklahoma "

Lots of chatter, but nothing has been published yet. There are several things in the works by different groups of herpetologists. Generally, these papers will present evidence to suggest relationships among the various forms (subspecies, species, genera). In some instances, changes in existing taxonomy (the names we use) will be warranted. These changes are not accepted automatically--they must be filtered through the scientific community and will stand or fall based on the quality of evidence and analysis. However, it seems safe to bet that there WILL be changes, as most people familiar with various forms of Lampropeltis can see that some groupings don't reflect evolutionary history (such as all the stuff grouped under the species name triangulum). Also, there is work underway to examine the genetic relationships among the so-called "lampropeltine" snakes (Lampropeltis, Cemophora, Rhinocheilus, Arizona, Pituophis) and it seems likely that some changes will occur with species groupings.

Once any of these papers appear in print, you should hear about it fairly quickly given the high interest within the hobbyist community.

Cheers,

Bob

From some taxonomists. I will gladly give you good folks a link to the other discussion, but I will have to do it in email because I'm sure that the kingsnake.com folks wouldn't appreciate me linking a rival website...Anyway, here are a few quotes...

KW wrote:

"The available sequence data indicates that temporalis is indeed an integrade between elapsoides and triangulum.

It also suggests that the eastern and central US milksnakes are actually closer to the common kingsnakes than they are to other milksnakes. While you are at it, you can throw in Stilosoma with this group.

The prairie kings are all by themselves.

Cemophora and Arizona are more closely related to each other than anything else, and more "kingsnake" than either Rhinocheilus or Pituophis.

And lastly, your "mexicana" don't really exist as a group, they are more closely related to the various mexican milksnakes."

This response was made by T_Taggart...

"I've been priviy to several datasets and trees of the Lampropeltini, that include much more molecular data (both mitochondrial and nuclear genes) (from many more individuals and localities) than available on GenBank (or any similar resources).
Without revealing much more pending review and publication... it is clear that elapsoides is monophyletic and quite distinct from syspila, temporalis, and triangulum. And yes Lampropeltis is paraphyletic.
My question for KW is... how can you can tell a specimen "is a clear integrade between elapsoides and triangulum" or 'a textbook integrade' using DNA sequence data? Perhaps using a loci based molecular technique (possibly microsattelites or some fragment data)... maybe... (although there is no substitute for allozymes in the delineation of hybrids/intergrades, IMHO).
Also, there is the problem of paralogous vs. xenologous relationships that would confound the delineation of 'intergrades' even more, with respect to any sequence data (especially mtDNA)."

Anyway, if anyone wants the link to the thread, hit me up at kcsnakeman at yahoo dot com

Also...Four gentilis under one rock, including a bi-colored black and white one...

I cant wait for the DNA-based trees to come out but think we need to use some caution in interpreting them when they do. If there is a lot of gene flow between "species" it will be hard to assign relationships. And just how to assign taxonomic rank based on DNA is not clear at all, how much divergence is required for a species, genus, etc.? How many genes do we need to sample to make those assignments valid? There is still a lot of uncertainty with DNA-based taxonomy.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

this that has been discussed at expos/shows that could also be problems with on-line sales and even retail reptile/pet stores. The taxonomy of genus of re-grouping/re-named could be interpret as species ill-legal to sale in some states because of the fact of genus. I heard recently of promoters of several shows in the mid-west that wildlife was considering no sales of ANY pituophis group. Also that triangulum of Lampropeltis if going with genus of Getulus, could have the same effect. BUT this has been old news around for several years and not really NEW news as I heard this back in 2001. If I remember right Chad, didn't Collins want something of this ? On the Alterna, that's all we need ! Re-classify that species again ! I think what........it has gone genus or species change at least 2 or 3 times of past ! LOL !
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Mike...

I am not sure if these changes will have ill-effects on the current law situations across the county or not. My guess is that when the changes occur, the states will simply adopt the new name without changing policy. Hopefully anyway. As far as Collins being involved, he is not the one doing the work by any means, but he is certainly a top proponent in contemporary herpetological taxonomy, so he will certainly be involved in peer review for the idea. What he does once a change has been published, is send the paper and the data set to a panel of taxonomists who read over it and then send him back a judegement. If he receives a "go ahead" then he publishes it on his CNAH list and in the next edition of "Standard Current Common and Scientific Names" booklet that he and Taggart do. What I want to know is how you are reacting to this horribly Draconion law the our beloved plains state just passed that bans all non-native venomous!? I am just so pissed off about it that I can't even describe it, but I will abide by the law with no hesitation. I find it very disturbing that we must bow down to the majority when the majority is wrong. I believe it was Larry Flynt who said "Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper." Our individual rights were certainly NOT considered. This change in un-Constitutional and there is nothing we can do. Now Mike, you and your collection are most likley to be perfectly safe. You can supposedly register your current animals with the KDWP and they will grandfather those animals in, of course barring you from the acquisition of new hots, but at least you can keep the ones you have. Also, according to Taggart, there is a chance that atrox will be considered native due to the population that is now established at Kanopolis. Anyway, I await your response...

PS- Here is a Western Pigmy Rattlesnake that I caught ~ 150 miles south of your town Mike...