Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just curious about this. I have been breeding ball pythons for several years and I have only bred Frozen Thawed feeders. I only hold back frozen thawed feeders to breed. I was wondering out of curiosity if anyone else thinks that breeding live feeders produces live feeders or picky eaters is it genetic? Just wondering, I only feed my hatchlings frozen thawed, I never feed live, it takes a little longer to get them going but it seems well worth it in the end does anyone else have any opinions on breeding for frozen thawed feeders?

I feed "all" of my snakes live...never heard a good reason not to and it is a lot easier. Freezing and thawing is like concentrating orange juice to add water back to it...

-----
when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

Like you, I never heard a good argument for using F/T.
Now, if someone has a small collection, say under 10 snakes, I can possibly see why one would wish to use F/T. Why keep live smelling rodents around?
But once you get a nice collection going, it becomes almost a nightmare, trying to use F/T. I've tried. And failed many times.
I was throwing away more then was being eaten.
I use live rodents. As I feed, I would estimate 80% of my snakes grab the prey as soon as it is offered. Another 10% have to "think" about it for a minute or two. The last 10% do not eat, either they arn't hungry, about to start their shed cycle, or some other unknown reason.
With frozen prey, if the snake does not consume the rodent, I do not take it from cage to cage trying to get it consumed. I can not re-freeze it either. It just turns to goo after it is de-thawed the second time. All uneaten thawed just hits the trash can.
Another thing I do is only feed rats. Never is a Ball python offered a mouse. From their first meal, it is always rats.
Last year, I had only one hatchling refuse a rat, out of all the ones that were produced here. That one was fed a mouse and then sold as a mouse eater. At a discount at that. Why keep it?
My thought is: Who is training who? Are we letting are animals tell us what they want or are we conditioning them to what we want? Have to think abou that one.
-----
Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

Like you, I never heard a good argument for using F/T.
Now, if someone has a small collection, say under 10 snakes, I can possibly see why one would wish to use F/T. Why keep live smelling rodents around?

One reason that you might feed f/t rats is marketing. As you've just stated, f/t can be more convenient for those of us with small collections. If I have a choice between two different snakes from two different breeders, I'll lean heavily towards the one that is a proven f/t eater. Just as a mouse eater is less convenient for anyone than a rat eater is and therefore has less market value, a f/t eater is more convenient for some of us. If your entire market is people who own many snakes, then this factor wouldn't matter to you. If you want to sell to us small-timers, converting a snake to f/t occasionally could help you sell a few extra snakes.

I'm not criticizing your choice to feed live. For your situation, I can see the advantage to live feeding. However, training some snakes to go either way could be a marketing advantage.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

To spend time buying and attempting a snake to eat frozen thaw, would be a big waste of time IF I can easily sell that snake in the time it would take to do all of that.
Are there people wanting to buy a snake that is a F/T eater? Yes, is it worth my time to convert my animals I sell to do that? NO. If I have something someone wants, they can take the time to convert it. Just my thoughts.
-----
Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

It's your choice, so I don't care either way. However, for someone who wanted that market niche, there is a reason to feed f/t. If I were shopping, I'd look at what the original poster had to offer before I looked at yours. As you said, you're not having a problem selling your animals, so it doesn't matter to you.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

>>It's your choice, so I don't care either way. However, for someone who wanted that market niche, there is a reason to feed f/t. If I were shopping, I'd look at what the original poster had to offer before I looked at yours. As you said, you're not having a problem selling your animals, so it doesn't matter to you.
>>
>>
>>Bill
>>-----
>>It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.
-----
when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

I didn't imply that the large breeders were feeding f/t. My point was that I'd rather buy from someone who has their young ones on f/t already because that's how I'd like to feed mine. If my preference means that I'll have to buy from smaller breeders like the one who started this thread, that's fine with me. If I want a particular animal from a large breeder, I'll deal with making the conversion, but any breeder who starts the process for me will have a competitive advantage. If I develop a rapport with a particular large breeder, I may still by a live feeder and deal with the conversion. Again, my only point is that there is a segment of the market that will lean towards the breeder who can supply an animal that is already eating f/t rats. I'm not trying to disparage those who don't feed f/t.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

If they say they do, you might want to look somewhere else. If they are going to lie about that, what else might they be lying about? You should at least ask to see the snake bing fed F/T...And still, what is better about F/T???

I am pretty objective about this, I was trying to convert everything to F/T and I thought it was definitely better when I first started. I mean it is cheaper (unless you breed your own rodents), no chance of damage to your snake, no live rodents to keep track of. Hoever, reality set in after about a year. Freezing and thawing is a major PAIN. After thawing out mice or rats five or six at a time only to have 4 go to waste (after a couple of freeze thaw cycles, they are pretty nasty), after watching my snakes refuse most of their meals, and after spending almost twice per meal consumed, I decided to make the switch to live. I'm glad I did, that is why I have a few 04s that are currently gravid, they would have never been big enough being picky eaters with F/T. As soon as I switched to live, they started eating almost every meal, 90% of the time instead of 40% of the time...
Anyway, most younger snakes can be switched to F/T with no problems, so unless you are buying an adult, I don't really see the difference.
-----
when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

May I ask how many snakes you have and how often you feed?

I have three snakes of two different species. I can see myself expanding to maybe seven or eight snakes of three or four species during the next five years. (In saying this, I'm assuming that Louisiana won't ban snakes and keep me from expanding my collection.)

Live feeding could mean that I would be raising rodents of some kind and likely always have a difference between the feeder animals that I need and those that I have. I'd either breed them at a low rate and run short sometimes or breed them at a high rate and have surplus. In either case, I'd be spending time on rodents that I'd rather spend on other things. I joined this hobby because I enjoy snakes and not because I enjoy rodents.

My other option for live feeding would be to drive to a pet store once a week and buy live feeders. Right now, the only pet store in town that sells rats for feeders never has rats that are the appropriate size for either of my pythons. In effect, there are currently no live feeders available for me to purchase. Even if they had these animals, I'd be fighting traffic into the city once a week and having to feed on the store's schedule of operating hours and not on my schedule of when I'd like to feed. The cost of live feeders from this store is already about four times the cost of frozen feeders from reputable sources. As the price of gas increases, the cost of going to the store for live feeders increases. I can throw away two or three f/t rats for every one that my snakes eat and still spend less on food than I would by feeding live rats that I buy from the store.

You asked the question of why feed f/t, but for my situation, the question is reversed. I need a real reason to feed live to justify the trouble of changing. So far, I've not seen any conclusive evidence that live feeding is better.

Your comment that I need to be wary of a breeder who claims to be feeding f/t is well taken. There are a few people who I trust enough to tell me the truth because our relationship is more of a personal relationship than just a buyer/seller relationship. If I buy from a breeder, I'll almost certainly go to one of them first. Otherwise, you're right that I should be wary of their claims.

Again, I can see where live feeding is better for many people. If you're happy and your snakes are happy, I think it's great that you feed live. I don't see any conclusive evidence that either method is better, so I'm not asking anyone to change. As I've said two or three times already, my only point is that I'd rather buy a snake that I know is feeding f/t than I would a snake that I must convert.

Thanks,

Bil
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Between myself and my partner, we have about 20 bps (adding at least 24 hatchlings this year...maybe more). For you, it sounds like you do not have access to live feeders and it would be a hassle, so I can understand why you want to feed frozen. However, something I have noticed is that when bps get up around 800-1000 grams or about a year old, they can become a lot more picky about eating. I have had the experience many times where one of my snakes would quit eating for a month or more and as soon as I offered live they would eat 3-5 meals in a week, like I was starving them or something...

I can understand feeding F/T makes sense for some people, but I think in reality those people are few and far between, so very few breeders will ever spend time to work w/ F/T.
-----
when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

I am not affiliated with the breeder i am about to mention and i do not know for 100% but proexotics up in denver feed all there balls f/t and to the best of my knowledge they start them out that way. Robyn pops on here every now and then, maybe he will see this and respond to you!
-----
Mike & Wendy

2.0.0 Siberian husky, Jackrussel/schitzu
0.0.1 Ball Python
1.0.1 Leopard Gecko
4.0.0 Beta's
3.1.0 Future Herper's