Reptile & Amphibian Forums

PLEASE excuse my ignorance!!! I just became a new Albino Ball Python owner, and I simply adore him!!! He feeds on live mice easily but wanting the best for him, I want to know what all the fuss is about regarding thawed vs. live, rats vs. mice. Is one more nutricious then the other? I know the concern over battle scars is a reason to feed thawed, but since my snake easily kills mice, what other reasons are there! The pet store closest to me has mice redily available so that is the reason I feed him mice- plus he kills them fast and eats them, no prob. And, how do you train one to eat thawed rodents? Id rather keep a live mouse in alittle critter cage if he dosen't eat it, then throw away refused bodies. As he gets bigger I know the larger rats will be better, but why can't I just feed him more mice instead? I don't want him to starve! I love the little guy! Thanks for your patience with this new and concerned owner!

I also feed my albino mice. I think the only reason other owners feed their BP's frozen/thawed rats is because it's cheaper and more safe. Also it's ideal if you have a lot of BP's to feed like most breeders.
I on the other hand have only 2 BP's and cost is not a big factor when it comes to feeding.
I like live mice for the safety factor. Rats can intimidate a BP sometimes if they defend themselves.

Thanks for your response! I only have 1python- I love him and perhaps when he gets larger I will try killing a rat for him to eat. Your picture looks like him too! Very cute!

The f/t versus live debates seems to be one of the favorite fruitless arguments that we have on here every so often. As far as I can tell, there's no conclusive data that shows that one kind of food is better than the other. I suspect that each method of feeding carries certain risks and rewards. There are plenty of people who've been in this hobby and business for a long time and have strong opinions. A few of them may have a hard time distinguishing their experienced but still only personal opinions from conclusive data. One or two of them may even attack me for saying that I can't see any conclusive data favoring either side. Their attacks won't turn their opinions into conclusive data.

One experienced person who has looked at the issue in a little more depth is Jay Martin. He posts on here occasionally, and has his own website at www.jaymartinreptiles.com . He wrote a nice little article about the live versus f/t feeding issue, and I'd recommend that you check out his article. In fact, I wouldn't bother with this thread except to point out that someone has written a good balanced article.

For lack of a conclusive argument in either direction, I'm feeding f/t because I find it easier to have a stock of food in the freezer than to go to the pet store every week. If your snake is happily eating live mice and going to the pet store is more convenient for you, I think it's great that you are feeding live.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Bill, thank you so much for your response! I've been really pressed thinking mice were not as nutricious. I really dont mind going to the pet store for mice because it is close and like a trip to the zoo I find it a fun thing to do. I can see if I had multipal snakes as breeders do but I only have one baby python to care for. I feel better now, I really enjoy having him as my pet. They are wonderful, and seeing him thrive happily is what its all about! Additionally, Thanks for the website you suggested- I'll check it out.

Adult mice are more dangerous than rat pups. I would try to swap to rats if they are available, you'll be better off in the long run.

First,
F/T versus Live...Depends on who you talk to! You don't really have to train you snake to eat F/T..they either do or don't You may need to heat or move it a certain way for your snake to accept it, but really it all depends on the snake. Also, you may refreeze your rodents (IMO at least) once if it is refused.
Second,
You will either have to make the switch to rats, or go broke feeding an adult ball python petstore mice! My adult males would have to take down 5-6 mice a week for a meal. I breed rats and I feed all of my 25 snakes rats! As the other poster said, rat pups are a safer alternative for a live feed than an adult mouse...Honestly, I would switch him to F/T rats and order them in bulk. You won't have to leave your house at all to go to the petstore!
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3.12 Normal ball pythons
1.0 Pastel ball python
1.0 Plains Garter
0.1 Rosy boa
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
1.1 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
-----My list is too long, so I'll stop here!
*Amy*

f/t vs. live is a debate with no real ending in sight... some people use f/t because it is easier to just store rats/mice in your freezer than to raise your own rodents or to stop by a pet store every week. but if you don't mind going to the store, and your snake prefers live, then by all means continue to feed your new albino live prey.

mice vs. rats: i've read/heard that rats are more nutricious but like Bill said, i don't there is any conclusive date on this... a big reason people like rats better than mice is simply that rats get much bigger than mice. people talk about feeding your BP an "appropriately sized meal." well, if you have a 2000g ball python, it becomes MUCH easier to feed it an appropriate sized meal using rats because you only have to feed one prey item (a medium/large rat). if you're feeding mice you'd have to feed multiple prey items which is a problem for some BPs.

as someone who breeds their own rodents, i'd also like to say that mice are disgusting little creatures! IMO, rats are much smarter, less stinky, and actually fun to own. we take our breeder rats out all the time... i cannot say the same for our mice though. we have one ball that eats mice but if we cant switch her over soon we will sell her because it is just so much easier for us to breed and feed rats that it is to breed and feed mice...

just my $0.02

I reccomend reading up on internal parasites, especially round-worms. I have never found someone to continue to use live after doing so, unless of course the snake will NOT eat f/t.

Live rodents, includeing pre-killed, and those that were frozen for less than two weeks can pose a health concern for your snake.

The majority of rodents available will have some form of parasites in their gut. When you feed them to your snake, your snake can contract the parasites.

Round-worms are the most common, and often don't pose an immediate problem to your pet.
The problem arrises when the worms stress out your pet's organs or allow other parasites that naturally exist in your snake's gut to reach large proportions in number.

Round-worm infestations will usually prevent females from being able to breed. I am not sure why.

My veterinarian is the vet for the Pittsburgh Zoo, and he was the one who pointed out problems of round-worms to me. I had a three year old female Surinam X Hog Island boa that had stopped eating randomly. This had never occured in the year that I had her. After talking about symptoms to the vet, and a few very respected boa breeders, we were at a loss. The entire time I had had her she ate f/t rats only, and never had any problems of any kind.
I took her in to see me vet and had blood tests and a stool sample taken. She was found to have round-worms and a high red-blood cell count. I was SHOCKED. She was administered medication for the worms, a one time dose. The vet said this usually isn't a cause for concern in itself, but it is possible that the worms caused other problems. Blood tests came back, and she had kidney disease. She died 48 hours after the vet visit.

Now Kidney disease is often a result of being treated with antibiotics earlier in life. I did not have her for her first two years of life. She was most likely fed live rodents at one time, which caused her to contract the round-worms. And it is likely that she was later given antibiotics to remedy the problem. While she seemed fine, this was an inevitable formula for an early death. Usually young snakes treated with antibiotics that DO get kidney failure die before they are five. I will note that often there is NO choice but to use antibiotics, it is not that they are all or always bad.

As a new owner you seem to care very much about your new pet, I urge you to take this post into consideration.

One final point. Rats are usually preffered to mice because snakes who are fed rats tend to grow at a faster rate than mice. One is not necessarily more nutritious than another. Also, when your ball python is an adult it will be much easier to feed it one rat than 4 or more mice.

Good luck with your new pet!

Wow, that's alot to consider! Worms from their feed wasn't a possibility I fathomed! Perhaps for now I will continue with the live mice, but feed the mice/rats parazap once in a while as well? I will try pre-killed rats in a couple months at least he will be more settled and more secure in his new home. I do prefer the idea of feeding him a rat once a week when he is able as oppose to a few mice. Thanks for the post, I really want him to thrive and live for a long time as I hear they can live up to 40 years. I owe him that chance! TY for the shared knowledge!!

Chris, so can one state that frozen rats = dead worms from being frozen? I will try the frozen rats then when he gets bigger in a couple months. I'll feed the para-zap to the live mice for a day before I feed it to the python for now. I've fed the para-zap to my tortoises in their food, (I keep separate far from one another, I know the tortoises have gut bac that can kill my python) and they appear to be healthier after treatment; this includes better fecal consistancy and better appetite. Gosh, heaven help me if I have kids cause my worry over my pets can be overwhelming!!!

Yes, freezing rodents kills parasites they may have had. I believe that they must be frozen for two to three weeks to be completely effective. Many microscopic organisms or larger parasites can withstand freezing temperatures for a period of time.

I have no experience with para-zap or treating prey items for internal parasites. I do know that in extreme cases you can de-worm rodents that you would feed to your snake. If you start a breeding colony it is a good idea to deworm all the breeders (rodents) so that they can not pass anything on.

Hello,

First of all, round worms are not a direct lifecycle parasite. Meaning, that if your snake gets them, they will not multiply and reinfect the snake with out an intermediate host. Once they die off, they will be gone, unless the cycle is continued with a host that they can breed in. Or, unless husbandry conditions are so poor that they stress the snake to the point that the immune system fails and secondary infections take over. It is not very accurate to assume that just because a rodent is alive when fed that it will pass on parasites to your snake. Many of us have been feeding live prey to our snakes for decades and have never had a problem with parasites. The situation that you are sharing is not common at all, and should not be interpreted as such.

Also, antibiotics are not used to treat roundworms, as they are not bacteria and would not be severly affected by the drugs. Panacur is a very safe antiworming medication that is used to treat nematodes (roundworms, hookworms {much worse}etc.). I think that it would be difficult to induce renal failure with panacur unless the snake was severely dehydrated and overmedicated at the same time (bad dosage bad husbandry). I do agree that the kidney failure probably was a result of poor husbandry from the previous owner. However, it is a huge stretch to say that the original problem stemmed from feeding live rats or mice. That scenerio is extremely unlikely and should not be used as evidence to argue against the feeding of live prey.

Will