Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My friend Matt came out to central KS to join Dave Long, his son Kyle, Don Long, Brett Nelson and I for a herping extravaganza...29 gentilis seen total. Well, after herping for nearly the entire day, Matt had to get back to KC and he flipped a few rocks along the way...Here is the amazing find...Ugly but very cool, and definately a rarety...

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AWESOME,nice to see new morphs hopefully it can become established in captive breedings,gents are def. one of my favescongrats,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

know it's anerythristic ? Not saying it's not but with my 40 almost years of observing gentilis and syspila of Kansas, I have found probably dozens that looked like this ( more syspila than gentilis ) that to me and others was either a washed out color, faded color of what seemed on mostly large adults, ugly, or color from the integration of the 2 species. I lie not with verification of others if I could contact them. Roy in Sanderson might remember some of these numbers of found by Matt Whiles where ever Matt is these days. Gee, to think if these were in fact anerys, of times when commercialization was legal and not down graded in thought or evil doings of wild caughts, i could of capitalized on them. LOL !
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Mike...

I still have yet to actually see the animal, but it does appear to be anerythristic. I suppose that we dont really know for sure because it could just be a faded out individual..But the indication is that all of the red is absent and that dark washed out color replaces it. I cant imagine that in all of the years you've been hunting KS you haven't seen any. John Fraser as an anery syspila, and Travis caught one at a hillside we were both hunting in Leavenworth County. There are two confirmed cases, so anery milks have been caught around KS. I'd bet that you've seen em...See my response to you below...

post on the possible multi numbers of what could of being anerys in the days past. What I'm saying that " anery " doesn't look any different of numbers of what I or others found in years other than what I/some others to be the description of what I posted in my previous post. On the SB passed in Kansas on venomous, not ban but it might as well be ! I will post of my very annoyed and run around by wildlife, USDA and local findings of that bill and the consequences. Chad, I do not keep ANY herps as of last year. I am closing down my reptile room/facility and selling all cages, tools and everything reptile related. Health problems and possibly re-location to another part of the country possible soon ! Possibly SINGLE again after 24 years of marriage. It SUCKS big time ! Who knows........
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

WOW. It is a shame to hear that about you and your wife. But why get rid of all of the herps?! I suppose that if you were to relocate down to the Bend, why would you need to keep any at all when you could just go see em every night...Still, it's gotta really suck to go from a nice collection to nothing.

"I still have yet to see the animal" to me means that it is being held(collected) by someone,somewhere. Sorry if this offends anyone, jmho,Jeff...ps, not saying that I disagree with anything or anyone disputing the laws....

***not saying that I disagree with anything or anyone disputing the laws....***

With a Kansas hunting license you are allowed to collect 5 of each species (besides protected and CINC).

What law are you disputing?

Kerby...

AND a scientific permit allows people to be included working under your permit/license as we did with Chad, Brandon, Devero, Petty. I just forgot if they needed the hunting license but that would of been redundant to my permit of they did so therefore I don't think they needed a hunting license if they didn't " take ". It could be different now since we are talking several years ago. Maybe CHAD can fill us in if he reads this. OOPS! Petty DID need a non-resident license to be in compliance with the law with the totals of 5 each species desired that was not on a list.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

I just came back from Kansas and I bought the Kansas (non-resident hunt license). I didn't want to argue with anyone on the TAKE issue, so I just buy the license Plus, who knows maybe I might have found an ANERY milk, or an ALBINO milk, or heck a SNOW milk.... BTW, it looks anery to me.

I also bought the 5-day (non-resident) fishing license since we went fishing.

Arizona is even worse as "TAKE" includes pursue...so just looking for them in Arizona includes "TAKE".... but on the other hand if I were to just drive the back roads of either Arizona or Kansas and take pics of turkey and deer I wouldn't need a hunting license...so what's the difference???

Oh well..........

Kerby...

Mike...

We were covered on your permit, but that only allowed us to collect the animals specified on the actual permit. The permit that I am now under is a blanket permit that allows me to collect up to 20 of each animal from a given locality. What "a given locality" means, I dont know, but this permit includes everything protected. Of course I cannot sell them, I cannot gift protected animals to anyone, and while I can house protected animals like Timbers, I am still regulated under city ordinances etc...The protection status of many KS herps is about to change though. Travis is a proponent for less protection and is going to propose that SINC animals be removed from listing, as well as many others. I dont know how that will go over, we'll have to see. I dont remember the details and specifications of your permit, but I believe it said up to five of each species you listed. This is up to interpretation, but that would mean five for the permit total, not each subpermitee. Hope this helps...

confused. While at the regional office here in Emporia I to was asked about the timber as to me agreeing on the sinc listing. Of course I'm not agreeing because of to many variables of ideas as to REAL populations and status in state. Of course this would still be as status as other species of non-commercialization if taken off or de-listed.

It's been some time and I might of said that I don't remember the details of 3 years of having that scientific permit on what it contained on others with me working under it. I guess I could of called Pratt but after my annoyances and urked conversation with law enforcement on the very recent passed venomous law, i don't know how they would take me ! LOL ! And while I don't really care to do much with species from Kansas, it's been nice to still go out once in a while to seek and as you know it's fun to bring other herpers out and show them species as well as habitat and the beauty of the land. You know all to well of the never ending rush of finding that brillant red milksnake as after all of these years I still do.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

" You know all to well of the never ending rush of finding that brillant red milksnake as after all of these years I still do.
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Oh yes, the reason I get outta bed every morning, lol. I just dont like the ugly gentilis much, I dont know why...

You are wrong. You can legally collect snakes in KS with a hunting license. All parties had one. Who are you to judge? I can collect anything I want in Kansas (herp-wise) because I am covered on a scientific collecting permit anyway.

I think it was last year that someone found an anery red milk there....MOST people are not allowed to collect from this state. Its a good thing you pointed out the legality, we wouldnt want more people sent into that area looking for another one of those illeagally. Thanks,Jeff

**MOST people are not allowed to collect from this state. Its a good thing you pointed out the legality, we wouldnt want more people sent into that area looking for another one of those illeagally**

EVERYONE is allowed to collect from Kansas IF they buy a general hunting license, either resident or non-resident. And evryone with one of those licenses is allowed to collect 5 milks (anery or not).

Why do keep insinuating it is illegal?

Kerby...

I read a post last year about a anery red milk found in Kansas but was told it was not legal to take or sell wc from that state. I have no problems with collecting common species, I do some myself. It is possible I got some bad information as it seems there are a fair number of opinions on this forum. So how have you been Kerby? How is life? Jeff

I was the one who posted that anery syspila last year. It was my friend Travis who found it while we were hunting this hill in Leavenworth County. You are correct in stating that you cannot sell w/c in KS.

while you may not be able to sale the original wild caught, you can breed and sell with the commercial license/permit breeding of that wild caught. At least that's the way it was. But the documentation had to be exact and 3 copies of that documentation had to be made. One for you to keep, one for wildlife to view, and one to the person/s acquiring. Also as to other states native commercialization, you had better get that receipt ! Tell me if that has changed ?
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

You are correct, you may sell the F1 gen and all after, but nothing that is w/c. You still should have receipts, but only if you are buying a protected animal like a hognose, which I had to do when buying from Roy boy...

Jeff, doing good. Just about finished with breeding my california kingsnakes. I have a few other breeding projects besides california kingsnakes...here is a link to my 2006 projects.

Kerby...
2006 California Kingsnake Projects

Try this arghhh

Kerby...
2006 California Kingsnake Projects

Variability is the most exiting things with milks. Determining what is and what isnt a "morph" can be a difficult task with the cynics on this forum. Sadly sometimes it has little to do with the snakes or even the pics but on WHO caught it,lol. I think we can agree to some things but "" should surround any unproven morph....like this "green/Anery" Eastern I found last year.Jeff

"Determining what is and what isnt a "morph" can be a difficult task with the cynics on this forum"

I dont know who you mean particularly, but whether this is or is not an anerythristic animal is not dictated by anyone on any forum. I don't see why these folks would be so hard pressed to believe that a genetic mutation could exist within a wild population...I remember a very well known and credible herpetologist once told me of a study that he did on Rana blari. He told me that out of thousands of specimens examined, many were albino. Who has really seen thousands of milk snakes from a single population, if that's even possible? Anyway, how ya doing Jeff? Any killer Pales this year?

I think we can agree to some things but "" should surround any unproven morph

You don't have to prove it is heritable to confirm that the snake is anerythristic. If it doesn't produce red pigments, it is anerythistic.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Well, as far as what I think most would be interested in on this forum.....is genetics. You can show me a nice pic of some long past albino whatever milksnake and most would say "nice". Show me some HERITABLE gene alive and kicking(LEGALLY BY THE WAY--KANSAS IS NOT LEGAL TO COLLECT THE WAY I READ IT)and that will interest people because of the future possibilities not a "one of a kind" from the past. Remember how many albino gentilis were found in the 70s?? Well,that morph never found a commercial market.....Problem is "different"things are becoming harder and harder to find anywhere. Having bred most everything small, I find myself jaded with empty cages...Jeff

"(LEGALLY BY THE WAY--KANSAS IS NOT LEGAL TO COLLECT THE WAY I READ IT)"

That's quite a statement...It is, of course, completely false. Thanks for implying that we illegally collected though.

Hey "Brad", are spotted turtles legal to collect/sell in Massachussetts? Offtopic, I know but I was just curious. KK

Huh?? Wha??

LOLOLOLOLOL

Hi Chad,
You guys have been having a great spring this year. You know Chad your hard on the snakes, "ugly"? wow. What you call ugly look like great days to me.
If anything you have to love the contrast of the two Gentilis in the photo.

When are you going to bring your good luck to Montana to find Pales? And when you do I'll wear my shirt backwards all day.

Peace, Dell

"I'll wear my shirt backwards all day."

LOL...You would certainly fit in with my herping style...

I plan on going for Pales again this year if I have the opportunity, and I do, so I guess it comes down to priorities and funds. I would love to come up to Montana, but not just for the Pales...You are correct that the amazing part of the picture is the variation. Matt is very lucky to have found such a beast. I still think that it's ugly tho . It is definately cool, but cool doesn't = pretty. Most gentilis are quite ugly imo, same with Pales that occur outside of sandhills habitat. That last statement is still under construction tho ...

Bad pic of my first Pale...Cherry County...Female...

Dell
What are you talking about "being hard on those snakes"? I know how you love those Amels so much- LOL.
Ryan

as to whether you or whoever collected that snake?,captive breedings would answer as to whether or not it is indeed anery, and if it was it would also introduce a new morph for l.t.gentilis into the hobby which is always a good thing as the more captive born lines that become established the better it is for all of the wild pops, regardless its very cool & thanks for posting pics ,,,,,,,,thomas davis