Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/flo...la-news-florida

But FL FWC will continue on and make the permits neccessary.
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John Light
JL Exotics
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This should work
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-fpython03may03,0,3236900.story?coll=sfla-news-flo

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John Light
JL Exotics
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LOL!!may not have won the war...yet,but we won at least a abttle...for now...

Funny how that story slanted it to look like we were all for the legislation.

I know of no one down here that supported it. That Reo Poppell seems to have a real agenda. Funny how they still do nothing to eradicate the ferall hogs that are a much bigger problem. I suppose if there was a hunting season on the snakes they would protect them too.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I know of several people that supported it including myself. Something needs to be done and something is being done. Fish and game will put together something.
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John Light
JL Exotics
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Slanted is exactly right NOBODY was with Poppell.

Something will be done but not to protect the environment but for political and financial reasons. Sure at some point a permit fee will be in place and the only change will be the state making a little pocket change .There are already laws in place against dumping animals ,not housing or caring for them properly, being responsible for escapes.

The last FWC told me about a week ago was that their thinking about limiting the permit to just normal phase burms and when compared to the overall agenda of Ralph Poppell makes a little more sense which is why FWC probably won`t go with it, but it`s still being kicked around.

From State Rep. Ralph Poppell : I don`t like snakes and don`t understand why anyone would ever want one. "How can you want something for a pet that looks at you as food when it's hungry?" he said. "I don't want something to look at me as food, I'd rather they (pets) come to me for food.
This says it all about where this guy is coming from and just how educated he is on the subject. To support this guy , any of his half baked ideas or to feed into his propaganda based views is ridiculous.The environment will still be destroyed at 100,000 acre clips but at least we can all sleep safe knowing that all the burms are safely locked up. Ernie Eison

Ok maybe that came out wrong. I don't support Poppell I do support FWC and the fact that something needs to be done. I should of made that clear.
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John Light
JL Exotics
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...my snakes...they all come to me when i have food...lol

....why not show detiled reports about how many more children are killed maimed and scarred emotionally and physically by "mans best friend "every year than by any kind of snake in the US...
...yeah my neigbors are terribly afraid of my boas(well the parents are anyway), and they own several PITBULLS...just what is the defintion of crazy today anyhow...because if keeping and breeding snakes,and having snakes as pets (mine are like family)is a "crazy person" thing to do well then...im "crazy".

I think Rob Carmichel had the best idea. Chip em, so they can be kept track of.

I'm doing a interview with THE NEW TIMES this afternoon which will (in part) discuss this legislation.

What seems to allude the minds of some supporters of this bill (which I have read) is that specifics as to what might be added are not mentioned. It simply said a list of "species of concern" will be added later. Anyone gonna try and put an exact handle on what that might mean?

Any time you put a bill through it takes a LOT to try and get rid of it-if it is wrong. It can also (as this one might) open doors we don't want opened.

Florida is a center for the reptile trade. The impact of the "wrong" bill could impact the trade nation wide.

At this point-No bill is a good bill-especially if this Popell is behind it.

Yes, something needs to be done. But extreme care when dealing with legislators who know little or nothing about the animals they are making laws about is prudent. This is definitly a time to Think before you say something that can be used to eliminate more than what the imediate problem is.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

You make a very good point Frank. The folks who make the laws are the sponsers (elected politicians who are hoping their bill will garner support and get them re-elected) and their toadies who actually draft the bill. This latter group generally knows nothing about which they write, but instead rely on "expert consultants" for content. These experts are sometimes legit and sometimes hacks. In either event, any real insight they may offer is generally lost by the time the final draft gets before the group for approval. Garbage in - garbage out.

We all know something needs to be done, but what? New laws or fees or anything the state can come up with will not help or fix the everglades. How will a fee get ridd of burms in the wild? how will a ban help with the burms in the wild? Do you think someone who buys a burm in, lets say jacksonville, will drive the 4 hrs+ to get to the everglades to let it go? No!! This is all a way for the politicians to try to look good, it will not/can not help.

I'm all for the fee, but lets not think it will help or do anything to fix what is wrong. It will just help keep a few burms out of the hands of a few kids. Now a days most 13 year olds can get the $100 for the fee, so even that wont help much.

The chip idea is kinda good, thats why I said the same thing months ago, but it will only help if there are yearly check ups on the snakes. As others told me the state can't afford to do yearly check ups on every one with a burm, so what do we do?

You need 1000 hrs and to have someone sign off for a hot permit, why not the same thing for burms? will it help with the glads, no, but it will do more to keep burms out of the hands of kids then a fee will.

I'm happy/sad that this is where we are, happy cause I can keep my snakes, sad cause anyone with $40 can still go get one.

So yes, something needs to be done, but WHAT?

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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

Exactly right!

All a fee does is make the animal more expensive, so some people will be possibly priced out.

What it doesn't do is guarentee that the animals are being bought by anyone more responsible.

To my experience being more monied does not make for a better (more responsible)keeper.

I have seen some high end prices paid by folk I wouldn't trust with a puppy.

Again I bring up the chip idea. At least if they are chiped when one gets loose you can tell who lost it.

Aside from a mandatory class in care like we have as a prerequist for venemous here its the best idea.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

The chip idea is a decent one, but it will be as hard to inforce as the title on a car. If you sell said snake and than they don't change ownership it will come right back to being the sellers responsibility. I think education is one way as well as the sellers being responsible. You have to educate your buyers. If some kid comes up and is trying to talk his parent into a snake that you think is wrong for them. You should educate that child and parent. A sale now will help the short turn, but damage all of us in the future. The price of the snake means little to certain people.
Just as a restraunt has the right to refuse service to a patron. You also have the right to sell your snake to who you want. But a little education and discretion will go along way. I also think that everybody should email and explain to the Rep from Vero who is pushing this bill what a large amount of money is made for the state by people that sell reptiles. Overall I think it is a knee jerk reaction. Just like Miami and the Pitbull. We have a chance to make a difference. But it has to start with us.

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Frankly, that right to sell an animal to whomever you want has limitations. I cannot sell my eyelash vipers to an unlicensed person. I bought my pet fox after obtaining a permit. Sorry, eduction does not work. Far too many people. I know. My associates and I have spent decades and thousands of hours (I used to be a zoo curator and did talks on this) on shows and educational talks.

With a chip at least they can be tracked if they get loose.

As for enforcement...we can't stop smugglers or illegal aliens..do you seriously think we can stop some Burms from coming in illegally? (LOL)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I worked at an animal control. The chip is only as good as the information given to the company. And that information is only good if it is kept current. We had tons of animals that came in chipped where the chip was never registered or the animal had been given away. If the chip information is not current. The chip would track back to the seller or breeder.
The classroom education is a good idea, but I was talking about education of the buyer and the seller. You have a moment when the sale is happerning to either set a good example or just worry about the sale.
Eyelash vipers and hots and one area where education or training is important, but it also has its limits. I have handled venomous, but feel that there are certain species that I would not want to keep. Just cause soemone has completed so many hours of training does not make them able to handle all venomous. I have seen soem people handle hots that should not have been. DOes that mean there training was substandard or were they just to cocky.

No doubt about it no amount of regulation or education will change the fact that less than responsible people will ALWAYS obtain and keep giant pythons that get out and make the news and make us all look bad. It's really just a fact of life in this day and age. And anyone that thinks that passing strict regulations, or implementing expensive fees or tough to obtain permits will change this fact are kind of living in a fool's paradise. (really, no offense intended toward any optomistic person here or anywhere, it's just the way it is)

No matter what we all do there will always be bad or drunk drivers, drunk or doped up airline pilots, doped up oil tanker captains, crooked and corrupt politicians, drug addict mothers that leave their babies in locked cars on hot days and irresponsible exotic pet keepers and a million unchangeable, unfortunate things in between. Personally, I feel that new or strict regulations do absolutely nothing to help this particular situation. Simply because, irresponsible keepers and those that have a total disregard for the public at large or the laws instilled to keep order will always merely circumnavigate any new laws and will still keep their snakes, make mistakes that make the news and continue to embarrass and compromise the rest of the good herping community as a whole. No, I think that new, tougher regulations can only hurt good, already responsible herpers. That's just my view. I could be wrong.

Now, I am never one to pass more laws and thus give any more power to whatever entity to have a say in my life or what I do (or my fellow herpers), but I do have an opinion that I feel is worth sharing. If there were ever any laws that might have an actual affect on this I think it would be laws that have such severe penalties that even the most incorrigible keeper would not dare break them. For instance: Real prison time for dumping snakes in the Everglades. Real prison time for your snake hurting someone else or eating their pet. Really high fines, like 5k or more if your python even so much as gets loose and is found in someone else's yard or home. I think penalties like this might get some real results. But they would have to be extreme. And in this day and age, and due to how much I love this hobby, if such laws stopped all these mishaps that hit the 8clock news that give this hobby black eyes and seriously pose a threat to the future of this hobby and our ability to legally have our animals, then I would be all for them.
Our Website

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Just had another incident involving a reptile here. The news reported an alligator killed a woman here. Note that this was two days before an autopsy was completed to determine if the gator bite was post mortem. Last report they still don't know if she drowned.

Sadly, we average at least one murder a week here and she was jogging alone. A very typical scenerio for a murder.

So all they know for sure is that the woman was found floating in a canal with a gator bite.

What really raises the flag is that we are talking about a canal with steep sandy banks and no cover to hide a gator if it managed to climb the over 10ft high bank.

But...it makes good headlines.

I bring this up to demonstrate the credibility of news stories here. The main reason why I am so very skeptical of the Burmese breeding reports.

In all the basic problem remains...Only the law abiding will obey the law. The real criminals won't.

The proof? A black market for eastern Indigoes when the penalty for catching one is (last I checked) $1,000 fine and at least a year in jail.

Obviously, any form of restriction or fee is limited at best on this issue.

As for the Chip...as said above, the right programing will result in at least as good a control as the law would. In fact, there is a psychological value, because many who consider disposing of their animals will not think of the limitations of the chip. Only that the snake is "Bugged." And that improves the value of it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I agree with you 100% and then some. Pertaining to the gator story, gators don't perceive humans as a food source. I don't for a second think that some gator came flying out of it's secure hiding spot and took down a jogger. But tell this to the droves that don't understand that gators aren't lurking in every shadow just waiting to kill a human. Good luck.

I re-read your post several times but found myself getting a little lost. Can you perhaps elaborate on your other points pertaining to burmese and the issue at hand?
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Update: The trappers are looking for a gator with body parts in it. That means they will kill every gator they find till something turns up.

Gators (unlike crocodiles) have blunt teeth. Like a croc, they store fresh kills till they get "tender" which mean she had to hav been in the water for a few days depending on what got removed.

As to my points. smilin mentioned the chips were only as good as the information. Ok, then the Burms could be chipped as part of the retail transaction. If the dealers are keeping records the amount of chips installed would equal their sales.

This will not prevent the gen public from horse trading, but a requirement of chip updating could be required with any trade. So if someone was found with the wrong chip info in their burm they would be subject to fines. In effect, it would work like a dog licence.

There is a psychological effect that goes with any prohibitive device. For example, knowing a resident is armed has a definite effect on the decision to break into their home.

Frankly, the chip dorsn't even need to work that well.

The average person will have little or no idea of what the chip can do...or even where it is located in the animal they buy. They will not want to risk injuring or killing their pet to find it. Since the Burm they own will have their information in it, the fear of prosecution and penalties when its found will keep them from dumping it.

As for the "less honest" the cost involved in removing an implanted chip would seriously cut into the profits of whatever sales they made-another prohibitive measure.

Nothing is perfect, but you can see that it is a much better deterant than just paying a fee upfront.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

As to my points. smilin mentioned the chips were only as good as the information. Ok, then the Burms could be chipped as part of the retail transaction. If the dealers are keeping records the amount of chips installed would equal their sales.

Even if they were chipped and that owner releases the python and they never registerred it it would still come back to the breeder. I have traced tons of cats and dogs that were just released onto the streets. When I tracked down the owner they would reply. I don't want her. It made my job easier getting the dog adopted, but shows little concern for the animal as a whole. So than also there is the term of ownership. If I sell the snake as the breeder and the owner never registers it. How many years later could that animal come back. Also in reference to the tagging many people report their animal died and they never get tags again. Until they come into a shelter and miracles of miracles fluffy lives. This is just one example. If the owner of the snake is just a pet owner how we would we decide about inspection and that type of thing. Or does the ownership of reptiles void your right as a citizen now in Florida or elsewhere.

This will not prevent the gen public from horse trading, but a requirement of chip updating could be required with any trade. So if someone was found with the wrong chip info in their burm they would be subject to fines. In effect, it would work like a dog licence.

There is a psychological effect that goes with any prohibitive device. For example, knowing a resident is armed has a definite effect on the decision to break into their home.

I am not sure if anyone else has worked in an animal care agency, but there as so many other legalities at work. I have seen people starve dogs over and over and never get any jail time. I have seen dog fighters walk out of court smiling. I have seen cock fighters get very little in the way of prison time. I just don't see these rules as a deterrant. It will end up Flordias own little war against their citizens. I still feel education is the best idea as a whole. It is slowly working on the drug front, but illegal or not a certain amount of people will always think that they are either above the law or won't get caught. Unfortinately these laws will only hinder those who follow the laws.

I too have worked extensively in animal rescue. What I am trying to suggest here is the lesser of several evils.

Now we can nit-pick every point, or we can agree that nothing will 100% solve the problem.

(I thought that was established several posts ago.)

I do not keep Burms, anacondas, African Rock pythons or Retics. (I have worked with all of them)

I do have two netonate boa constrictors (though one is here just for treatment). The point is, I really do not care if the price (with fees) of a Burm goes through the roof). Aside from temporary possesion as a patient or a rescue, I have no intention of ever owning one.

Still, advocating a bill that does not specify which animals it will demand permits for and leaves open what might be listed as a species of concern in the future is IMHO just plain foolish.

Since you seem so set against the idea of chipping, with all due respect...do you have a better solution?

I would really like to see it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I am not against chipping. I have just seen it be non-effective in the past. I still think education is the best idea.
When they were trying to pass the law. I emailed and callled the local Senators. When a lady who works with the Humane Society gave misinformation about reptiles in a pet section . I called the paper. Now I will be writing articles for the paper viewing the other side of reptile ownership. Even if there was a place where people could drop off reptiles. They would not use it. How many animals are released into the wild such as dogs or cats every year thousands. I think it is the sellers responsibility to educate the buyer. Animal talks articles and guidance for the buyer is the best idea. I think their will still be idiots that buy these snakes with no idea of the proper care. And when they get to big there will still be some that release them into the wild. Right or wrong this will happen. I just don't like the rewriting of venomous laws with open ended species. They were not spelled out in the law. They just said "REGULATED" And this would be decided by FWC. That is to much leway in the law for them to eventually ban more species just by their whim. When the public is educated they may be more willing to take on that responsibilty. Not everyone is responsible. Maybe less breeding of these snakes and higher prices will solve some of the problem. But even today I am going to a local animal shelter to pick up a ball python that soemone dumped there. Cause they could no longer keep it. I can't change everyone or effect everyone. I am just trying to do what I an do. But I should not be limited on the snakes I keep cause someoene else can't or won't be responsible.

I totaly agree with your sentiments.

However, after more than three decades of trying (and I mean shows, talks, lectures, schools, one on one, not to mention thousands of rescues) it just doesn't work here.

This isn't like some mid western town where you have a more stable population. South Florida is booming.

We have more than Seven hundred families moving into the South Florida area each week. The vast majority have English as their second language. White or black Americans only comprise about 30% of our population. And Florida is the third most populated state.

Most of the people that come here are from Caribean countries, Central or South America or Haiti and hate snakes. They have decimated our turtle population as to them it is cheap food. The general attitude is that herps are either food or pest.

Between the language barrier and the prejudice, Education at best reaches only a tiny percent. Hell we have enough trouble with regular education as our teachers have to be in many cases bi-lingual.

So you see there are much bigger educational problems than teaching reptile tollerance.

Plus the remaining herp habitats are being built out fast.

That is why we are planning to leave Florida and poss move to Nevada.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

While I understand your ideas. I also think that a vast majority or the owners of reptiles are white. I have worked numerous shows and I find that a majority of the show buyers are white and not a minority. The turtle problem is a large one also that can be laid at the feet of FWC. The collection for pets is limited, but you can collect many more for food. In certain areas of FLorida developers can bury Gopher Tortoises alive if they pay fees to FWC. I believe in your arguments, but moving is not going to solve the problem. Once laws are passed in one state they spread like wild fire. I would also move from Florida, but to avoid hurricanes and the increasing cost of living here. But if each one of us can change just one persons view there is a chance. I am sure eventually the knee jerk reaction will pass laws to limit ownership. I just want restrictons on what species are covered and not have a Game and Fish agency that can limit any animal they see fit. Seems like a easy of a way for them to abuse the power based on their personnel criteria. I appreciate your efforts in the past, but We all must look towards the future and continue to make an effort for both snakes, turtles, and all reptiles.

But Herp laws are only one thing in this mess. Nevada offers open land...millions of acres that are not occupied by condos and all the grief that goes with over developement.

The Florida I knew isn't even a memory for most the people who live here.

I am actually giving up some of the herps I have because the law there is not as forgiving (no exotic vens.) The trade off is what licence you do have to get is $25 (instead of $100).

I have a huge interest in Paleo and frankly fossil hunting is better there.

Many many reasons....

While the majority of Herp keepers here are indeed white, the majority that kill them in the wild aren't. And native white and black Americans are outnumbered over three to one.

Sorry when you are dealing with a population where the majority don't even share a birth language the one one one is just too Pollyanna.

I do look to the future and I have sense enough thru 50 years in Florida to know when it is time to pull up stakes and move back into the USA.

FRank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."