Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys. I have a long story/question that I would really like to get a lot of feedback to. I no longer work with bearded dragons at my home, but I did for about 9 years up until I started college, and I still care for them at my job. Thanks guys.

I work at a local reptile store. I have been there for almost 2 years. I have been working with a large number of my own reptiles for almost 12 years now. I have only been breeding them however for about 8 years.
Recently I got into an argument with the owner's wife, who I won't name for obvious reasons, lol, about the supplementation of reptiles. I told her that I have been recommending to our customers that buy our lizards to use MinerAll. The indoor kind for the captive reptiles. However, the owner's wife is not the smartest woman in the world. She has a hard time admitting that she is wrong and she herself has only been working with reptiles for about 5 years total.

She seems to think that MinerAll should only be used once, maybe twice a week because it has too many multivitamins and the RepCal Calcium with D3 should be used on the days in between. That seems like a such a crock to me because it doesnt make any sense to do that. I have talked to countless breeders and hobbyists that use MinerAll exclusively and have done so for several years. I personally have used MinerAll exclusively for the past 9 years on all my reptiles and have raised over 1000 bearded dragons, countless leopard geckos, pictus geckos, crested geckos, fat tail geckos, uromastyx, iguanas, tegus and monitors on MinerAll. I follow the instructions on the can of powder, but sometimes give the young adults just a little more that it recommends, but not often. This argument has been going on with us for several days now, and she seems to have called the local reptile vet and he supposedly agrees with her on the subject, but she has a big history of lying about things like that.

She has said things like leopard geckos are pure cricket eaters, and none will eat mealworms, which we all now is a load. She has said that bearded dragons will expel sperm if not fed for 3 days after laying eggs, which again, is bull. She thinks that a study was done finding that calcisand and playsand is the best mixture for reptiles as a substrate.

I know that much of this was to take out some of my frustration with this woman, but I want some feedback about others' experience with supplements and any links to sites regarding reptile supplementation. I would also be happy to hear anyone's experiences with people like this lady.

Thanks guys.

Phil

About the supplimentation, you are both right. I beleive the particular brand, Minerall has sufficient calcium and D3 mixed in it can be used exclusively as a supplimentation. However, other brands don't always have a good amount of Calcium d3. For growing dragons I would recommend using a multivitamin and calcium powder with D3 as separate supplimentations, instead of all in one in the case of the minerall. I feel this because growing babies need more calcium than normally needed for adults.

It is also possible to Overdose on mulitvatimins so having a straight calcium powder to provide babies more often works better. Extra calcium is also good for egg laying females as well.

As there has not been any long term research on the effects of too much multivitamin/calcium supplementation in reptiles (other than the extremes, none at all and so much that the bearded dragon dies) there is a lot of leeway inbetween the two extremes. I personally feel that some people give too much suppliments, many feed dusted insects 2-3 times a day with hatchlings, I think even for hatchlings once a day is enough. But I am no expert and that is my opinion only. But more towards your own concerns, I think either your method or her method for supplimentation is fine.

The rest of the stuff she beleives is of course, wrong. Calci-sand is never a good substrate, (I personally dont' feel washed playsand is either, but I admit the risks of it causing impaction and other problems is much more reduced compared to the calcium based sands, besides, why spend 10 times as much for pretty colored calcium sands when you can pay so much less for 10 times more sand by buying washed play sand. Fortunately those IT MUST LOOK PRETTY fans LOL there is a new sand substrate that is in fact crushed granite (a type of rock) that comes in many natural colors, including the reddish color of Australian sand).

Though I don't have your years as a herp keeper (not to mention your variety LOL) I have spent most of the time since I decided to buy a pet reptile in 2000 (or around there, sheesh it has been 6 years now...where has the time gone??) I have done alot of research. Research was what lead me away from my initial first choice of reptile (the infamous green iguana) and to my discovery of a bearded dragon. One thing I have learned is there is no one way to care for reptiles, not in this fast growing hobby. As more interest in reptile keeping, both professionally or as hobby, increased the more information is gathered about proper care and the more educated we all will be. 20 years ago, you would be hard pressed to find even a fraction of the information we can find easily with a simple one word search on Google. But the really important thing is knowing when to listen to what others tell you and consider it's validity (either by asking questions of that person, asking other people, personal research etc.) then incorporate what works for you into your daily care of your reptiles.

Man I am really in a rambling mood today.

I however understand your frustation. There are so many people out there who are under the impression what they say or what they do is the absolutely only best way or right way. With these kind of people you can prove your point a billion ways but they will either refuse to beleive you, or not care at all their way is wrong. Unfortunately, nothing we can do about those type of people. Either they will figure it out that you were right all along and make appropriate changes, or always go about life in ignorance.

The only thing you can do is explain facts, provide enough sources to prove your facts/findings and let them decide to change or not. Unless they are outright abusing the herp (ie, letting it starve, improper housing etc) we just have to bite our tongues and hope the best.
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PHLdyPayne

I agree mostly with what you said. I have dealt with a few vets who all have told me that excess multivitamins are excreted in the feces when lizards poop. Wether or not this is 100% true I am not sure, but it came from about 4 reptile vets in the area so I will take it with a grain of salt.

I know how it goes having to bite your tongue. This woman is my boss so I can only go so far.lol. But it gets extremely frustrating having to deal with her. The rest of the guys I work with agree with me and use the same supplement regimine at their homes with their reptiles.

I appreciate the reply and the feedback.

Phil

You (and she) should also take into consideration that different circumstances require different procedures. I have heard many times that no calcium supplementation is required if the animal has enough access to UVB or natural sunlight. I have also heard that some nutrients can be harmful if given too much-hence the reason you shouldn't feed beardies spinach because of the high iron content. It is said that too much iron can block their ability to effectively absorb calcium. You have probably heard all of these things before. I only have about 5 yrs experience in keeping reptiles (beardies, red tail boas and amazon tree boas). I use a calcium supplement daily and use liquid supplements mixed in their misting water for the rest of their dietary needs. Though I don't have as much experience as you, I have had good success in keeping and breeding my animals and my supplementation regimine has worked very well for me. Hope this helps, and good luck with the boss lady. Remember what they say about opinions---. you probably spend more time actually caring for the animals than she does, and with all the experience you have, you can at least be confident that the advice you give is tried and true. That's what matters.

What the vets said is very true. Many vitamins and minerals are not retained by the body. Many pass with other bodily wastes. However, high concentrations of certain vitamins and minerals can cause major health problems. Exactly which ones I don't know and each creature seems to have their own 'weaknesses' to high levels of these minerals and vitamins.

If I remember correctly Bearded dragons cannot tolerate high levels of vitamin C (A as well but not 100% sure on vitamin A) and phosphates. The real reason for giving multivitamins is to make up for the lack of variety of insects/vegetation the dragons would find in the wild and not giving the same sort of vegetation/insects bearded dragons would normally find in their native lands (ie, Australia).

What we need to happen is somebody to go to the outback, follow bearded dragons around in different areas, record everything they eat. Analyse the nutritional content of all prey items and vegetation eaten, figure out how much of what is eaten daily or weekly and at different life stages, then a more detailed knowledge would be gleamed on what is healthy for a dragon suppliment wise. This may eventually happen but it took many long years to get completely sound diets for cats and dogs (and many are crap anyway, as new things are learned...like high ash content leading to urinary tract problems in cats etc.)

But I meander again.

As your boss is the woman you have had troubles with, all you really can do is explain where she is completely wrong, using books for reference if neccessary and if she still won't beleive you then just drop the matter. Use what you know to be right in your care of the reptiles at that store, if caring for them is your job. One of the reasons I am hesitant to work in a petstore, worried that I would conflict with their incorrect way of caring for aninmals. That and the pay probably be much too low for me to survive.
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PHLdyPayne