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I was reading an article about Chuckwallas and they were talking about the bright orange colors of the Chuckwallas being influenced or enhanced by the plants that they ate. Just thought it gave some credit to the idea that was being discussed a while ago about transpecos ratsnakes......
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Jaren
Desert Canyon Reptiles
I think that we have already acknowledged over and over again on this forum that plant matter rich in yellows and oranges (like squash and carrots, etc.) can influence color...especially with herbivorous Iguanid lizards like Sauromalus obesus and Iguana iguana.
We get it.
That is established by now.
And it isn't news in the herp world either. It's old news.
But...there are SEVERAL problems when considering that theory with Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes.
#1 They don't eat plants.
#2 ~85% of wild suboc diet is rodents and the other 15% is birds. That is documented. Hence the well-assigned name, "RAT snake".
#3 The lizards that they only occasionally eat don't eat plants.
#4 Subocs typically match their substrate color...that is why the trait is selected for...because it is more cryptic. You can read about natural selection and crypsis in ANY good college biology book. They are two of the most simple, established and agreed-upon of concepts in the biology discipline.
It baffles me that despite all of these set-in-stone facts, people get on here and say that because some Sauromalus eat yellow daisies in the wild, their color may become more orange...becuase of this unrelated fact, they say this gives credibility to a theory that subocs that tend towards orange/red is also diet related...just like the vegetarian Iguanids.
I think it is amazing when someone like Mike Price (aka here as JediKnight -- who is THE "suboc Guru"
recently has the most accurate, updated and legit TPRS article ever in Reptiles, and who took the time to write down below this entry in this same forum the SAME EXACT THING THAT I AM SAYING...and yet someone gets on here and totally disregards his and others' expert opinions. In short, they choose to go with the undocumented, unverified rhetoric that is posted on here all of the time.
I hate to sound hard-up, but come on!!...every person who actually knows something about this has already posted this same thing until we could all be sick from nausea.
After having been a regular "poster" on the KS forums for some time now, I can really understand why Greg Maxwell went out and started his own moderated brand of forum for chondro people. And it is comments like this that reiterate it for me.
DR
Suboc.com
Information like "I have a suboc and it has gotten brighter or faded" is pretty much irrelevant since their diets aren't controlled (i.e. how many carotenoid pigments were present in the rodents they ate? What about what the rodents had been eating?).
There are two issues here and it is really quite simple -
1. What kind of pigment produces the orange coloration in bogeys?
2. Where does that pigment come from?
If you say the pigment is carotenoid, then how do the snakes produce it? Do they get it from the diet or do they manufacture it themselves from lipids in the diet? From what I know, vertebrates don't manufacture carotenoid pigments (but I could be wrong about this). And bogeys eat the heck out of heteromyid rodents. What about the orange enamel on the front of their teeth? What about their orange/yellow fur?
If the pigments are not carotenoid in nature, what are they? Proteins? Is it a derivative of melanin? One of the xanthins?
In the absence of real answers to these questions, we are all just shouting into the wind here.
It could be. If this is the case, then it would be safe to assume the color is dependent on genetic factors.
But would a diet rich in carotenoids make the snakes more orange. I suspect it would. However, this would be difficult to quantify by just feeding one or two animals, it would take a larger sample size to produce any reasonable correlation.
As for the suggestion that it is simple Darwinian selection based on soil color, I balk at that (with all respect to Jack Sites). This is an almost entirely nocturnal species and I doubt shades of coloration has a significant impact on their predation. Although there are higher frequencies of orange snakes in some populations, there are no all orange populations and orange snakes show up from different populations where most snakes aren't orange.
If it is genetic, it is an issue of allele frequencies (assuming it is genetic) within each population. Is that governed by Darwinian selection for matching soil color? I would be amazed if that was the primary selection pressure.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas
Chris..........good points! One could speculate that a bright orange color would be a "cryptic" negative. Glades rats seem to have survived with such a handicap. As you mentioned, this would probably be a non-event to a snake that is nocturnal.
I dont normally post here but his thread is pretty intesting from a genetics point of view (which is what I do).
The red coloration could still be genetic even if there is not current selection pressure to maintain it. If the red color trait has no fitness effect then it can be maintained for a long time because the red color is a neutral variant; there is neither advantage nor disadvantage to being red. If there are some populations where red is more common then the allele is just at higher freq. in those populations because of chance. Since the pops are not reproductively isolated gene flow will cause the red trait to show up in other pops as well. So if it is genetic (?) we dont even need to evoke selection to explain it.
Would be cool to know more though (like is the red trait linked to some other one that is under selection).
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859
Hmmm
It seems we have a “North-going Zax and a South-going Zax” scenario here.
I know in this polarized political climate we have right now, it’s very unpopular to take the middle ground, but is it possible there is a middle ground to all this?
Is it possible that subocs seem exclusively nocturnal to us because that’s where and when we find them, but they may spend more time exposed to predation at the base of boulders during cooler moments than we think? Does this imply that natural selection may yet be at work? Does this help us understand why the preponderance of animals from light colored limestone tend to be lighter than those, say in Alpine, where rocks are darker, tend to be browner?
Could it be both? Could the genetic conditions for orange be necessary for the ingestion of color enhancers to be demonstrable?
Will we ever learn not to get bogged down in an Asian land war we cannot win?
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``I like non-sense; it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living; it's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, and that enables you to laugh at life's realities.''
Dr. Seuss
Oh,and Vinny,
Good looking website....
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Regards, Bill McGighan
Hey Bill,
I think there is a lot of room for the middle ground here. I was just giving the other possible extreme. Until we know a whole lot more about the basic biology of these snakes any explanation is only a "just so" story. (I bet suboc are out there basking a lot in the day anyway.)
I would bet there is some gentic basis for the ability of ingested color enhancers to make it to the skin, afterall they have to get from the gut to the skin somehow. They are cetrtainly not just making it there passivly, somewhere along the way there has to be some active uptake.
Thats a great Seuss quote by the way. Thanks for the compliment on the web site, it means more since I acutally made it myself.
Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859
Thank you so much for your comment. I am willing to share any information you may need to better understand what I know. My work is not restricted to snakes and if you E-mail me we can share without torturing any more viewers............Bill
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Dusty I found a quote of yours that diet has nothing to do with color!
>because all of my oranges get more orange as they grow older and with each shed. Ask Mike or Dean and any credible person that breeds them and they will tell you the same thing.
You know why?
>Because DIET DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT!
>It's a simple locality phase and is related to G-E-N-E-T-I-C-S.
Do we have a convert? Or are you forgetting what you say?
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I think what Dusty is trying to get across (and I 100% agree) is that of course giving an animal unnatural ammounts of carrotines will influence the color. If YOU eat unnatural ammounts of carrotines then you turn orange too! Does this mean that just because a snake turns orange throughout the course of its life that it is ingesting carrotines? Absolutely not! Just because a snake fades in color does not mean that it was recieving carrotines in the wild. It may be as simple as Darwinism or it may be more complicated, but the fact remains that their natural diets have been thoroughly examined and they point in no way to carrotines.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)
As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"
My point is that the diet varies from area to area in the wild. Carotene in the wild can be many times higher in the wild especially if a snake has a taste for hatchling birds. Just like not everyone likes waffles, so a snake may have found a way to prey on hatchling birds “very high in carotene”. Is it really so far fetched that Sub-ocs may in fact do that in the wild? Is it so far fetched that they would turn more orange than the others especially when it is proven that carotene will turn them orange? If some hatched out orange I would lean more toward genes. Silvers hatch out silver, Buckskin hatches out buckskin and orange hatches out yellow. I do feel that a gene is necessary to capture and use the carotene. So what if Joe-Blow scientist found 300 YELLOW sub-ocs and did an analysis of stomach contents. How many orange ones were tested? Not too many because there are not too many caught. If these ultra rare boy scout oranges were tested and found to have bats in their stomach what would that tell you? Boy scout road is a Mecca for Bats and Bats eat more bugs than any other creature I know. The carotene would be off the chart.
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There are 3 things that you never debate because you will never win or come to an agreement. Religion, politics, and carrotines! 
I agree to disagree.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)
As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"
You and Michael only have one problem you have no orange snakes! I have been to Michaels house. I have seen every snake in his collection even the ones at his friends house and he only had one that was orange and it was wild caught. You always talk about how orange yours get shed after shed only one problem it is only one snake you show over and over again and to tell the truth it is not all that orange! So where is your data? Where are all the picks to back up your claimes?
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I have four Panther Canyon subocs (not just one, as you say) that are the brilliant orange and the "Oro del Rio" Golden/Orange phases. And yes, they are getting brighter in color.
Why don't I share all of my orange Bogey pics with you? Well, honestly because I don't have to.
Isn't Mike's word enough for you? The man has more breeder Trans-Pecos than any four of us on this forum (Reptiles Mag says he has over 60 in his collection, and that number may be even greater now).
But if you really need to see to believe, go check out Dean McInturff's "Big Al" and then look at Big Al's offspring, Alice and Little Al. This is the Golden/Orange phase.
It's here for everyone to see.
Here is the link:
Young Jedi, the sand people are planning a rebellion. I perceived a tremor within the force, I had a vision of thousands rising up with carrotsticks in their hand. The light sabers proved useless so I urge you COME OVER TO THE DARK orange SIDE.
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Sorry.... Couldn't resist
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Regards, Bill McGighan
Are those carrots or hot dogs? Vegitarian Sub-oc found in desert carrotpatch? The nicest one I have seen looked red like a Bamboo Ratsnake someone aught to be able to find a picture it, lived at the San Diego Zoo. I did make this one. Whitewater Stock same color as a carrot!
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Yeah, Bill,
The carrots are lame.
They were left in our refridgerator about a month ago by my youngest grandson!
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Oh... and the real picture!
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Regards, Bill McGighan
Nice looking as is.
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Thank you for the link. I would also like to thank all of you who are now sending me data on fading of snakes in captivity, quite a few of you out there. It has been fun working on this project.
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My last post was a Black Gap Orange the rareist of the rare!!!
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and the rarity of Black Gap ? Of subocs or orange subocs ? While reading this NEW and rehash thread, I wonder by who's opinion orange subocs are only found in certain areas. Boy Scout Road was mentioned but I thought lots of us debated this ( I don't want to use the harsh word " argument " ) as to orange in high to low color subocs were found ANY wheres of Brewster county and Presidio county. I'm no expert on the orange scenario but I've got over 50 trips to the Bend area of over 35 years and while I'm not a Hollister, Hibbits, Ross, Forky, Saddleman ( forgot his name ), and forgot his name at the hardware store in Alpine, I have found different degrees of orange coloration on 118 including the flat floodplains if you will, of course the first 20 miles of 118 leaving Alpine south, the 11 miles through the Xmas mountains range going to Study Butte, 170 before River Road, River Road itself > so I gotta ask this and with all due respect, seeing in my opinion that some of these orange subocs are not of BAT infested areas relating to my draw of digesting of a persons theory of carotene causing orange by diet, how many trips have you made down there to DRAW your opinion/theory ? At least on the wild population...........
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saddleman = Rick Green = good guy
My blond and het blond are from Rick.
I met the hardware guy on a cut one night, but don't remember his name either. (I hate getting old!) LOL
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Regards, Bill McGighan
I was joking, it was a joke relax I am just having fun.
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I average about two to three desert trips a year for at least the last twenty five years and I do agree that orange is everywhere and no where and don't you think it is odd that no one after all these years of breeding has not been consistant in breeding for orange?
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No one consistently producing orange ? BUT we don't know that. ( I think I already posted something similar to this ). My friend that doesn't give a hoot about flaunting his breeding achievements on venomous and colubrids including random breedings of subocs, will not ever post on or show pics here due to him being non-savvy and computer-less. And I abide him on this. He has bred and had F1 and F2 orange subocs and had neonates of non-orange parents. In fact we HAVE been to some of the lesser reptile shows selling these as well as older specimens. Before all of this, it wasn't a big deal to me or him. We didn't sell a lot because at these lesser shows people were not as thrilled by these snakes as other snakes. I can't prove any of the above other than some people on here knows me and my truthfulness about things. He DOES go to Texas with me but lives hundred of miles away. I can only ask him to get someone to get pictures of his subocs because not only is he non-computerized but a relic to all of the techno world except for vehicles. He is a COWBOY with vast knowledge of all cowboy life but enjoys snakes and keeps them well. Some people on the alterna forum will know exactly who I'm talking about ! LOL ! If Sighthunter or anybody else would like to meet up with any debates or just talks while down in west Texas, and we have had this oppitunity several times in past, it looks like only one trip affordable this year and that looks to be in either late Aug. or early Sept. when the crotalus and subocs move mostly........and going with lunar phase. Welcome to all.
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I find that exciting that your friend has been breeding orange. I thought I knew all the Sub-oc breeders out there. I would be interested to know more I had been looking for a breeder for years. Is it Craig Trumbower? What you post is exciting and I look forward to a Pic.
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The trip this year looks to be June 23 through the 30th. I usualy stay at Wildhorse or the Longhorn in Study Butte. Lets hook up and talk Bogeys.
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staying there after I talked to Louise. She is not renting cabins out in 2 weeks of June and the place is up for sale. Unless you have gotten different word. I checked all places and even the ones I use to stay at and the average price staying in the Study Butte and Terlingua area will/is around $80 Add gas prices in the Bend area holding at over $3 steadily and doesn't appear to be coming down in the next several months........Alpine is the better choice but if you all go to my post on the gray-banded forum, all motels in Alpine are booked already or will be for several months due to the filming of Paramount movie titled BLOOD. Camping looks like one way at the place where the Lakiva is just past the Terlinguia Creek bridge. They have showers, toilets, and laundry facilities there. Presedio is still open at average of $50 per night but !....and knowing the road back to the good spots of River Road in milege...,,,and thinking of hunting north of Presedio back to Marfa....Uh...the most drug trafficking highway STILL. Probably another reason ( staying down in Bend region ) why I was influenced to go in Aug, or early Sept.
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How about Sanderson? I do hunt gap alot. But I have stayed in aAlpine quite a bit also. Buzz always offers floor space!
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If you can stand all of those by gone years and anecdotes of wisdom. LOL ! But people are saying that I'm like that or getting to be like that. Sanderson and points east might be booked but i doubt that Del Rio will be unless one of those bass tournament at Amiststad is held. I bet that Ol' Roy at the Outback in Sanderson will be raking in the moola with whats going on of the more western part. I called Van Horn on lodging and with 25 % or more motels than Alpine, they still had space but with a price ! OOPS ! Look out Davis Mountains. If you're filthy rich, there's the Gage Hotel in Marathon. But if some of you are like me and us, you WILL figure out something of lodging to hunt that River Road. I keep saying : River Road is like an addiction and has some kind of draw almost like a spiritual draw. But DO NOT stay at the Tee-Pees or anyplace else on that road. That seems to be suicidal !
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With the price of gas it may be cheaper to stay at Terlingua Ranch and ride a bike down river road. Wonder if the rooms in Terlingua Ranch can hold Twelve people? Might be cheaper than camping!
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Ranch off of 118 about 23 miles north of Study Butte ( you know where it is ) has a bunk house for rent. That's an idea. Also if you are talking about that house or i think there is more than one, there IS a option on renting a really nice place with walk-out patio, custom kitchen out there, full kithen indoors, at least 2 bedrooms if not more, for a price of $200 per night. but divided by 4, and that makes it the BEST darn deal out there and it is located in or at Terlingua off of 170. But ya gotta rent it for at least 4 to 7 nights I think but still.....it can be found by web-site of lodging of outside Big Bend Park.
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I can round up about four people that I go with every year.
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