Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Last night my Georgia male Eastern and my female NJ Eastern hooked up for well over 4 hours. It was her only hook up so far this season. Tonight I put her in with another male (NJ Eastern)He is now interested and working at a getting it on withn her as opposed to the last few nights when he was un-interested. Anyway my question is...

If the second male does lock up with her tonight will the first males sperm automatically fertilize her ova regardless of tonights breeding ?

Can it be a mix of males fertilzing some of the ova ?

Does fertilization take place right after copulation ?
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They are now locked up. Now what will happen ??? I dont care either way Im happy with whatever comes of it.
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I have a bunch of first year breeder thayeri. I had intended to breed specific females to specific males. But then I started thinking about 1st year males/females and decided that I would prefer that my femles had the best chance possible to produce viable eggs. I have three excellent males and one other that is good too but not up to the standard my other three are.

My Sharktooth male is the one I prefered to breed but I'll be happy with any good eggs. Most of my females hooked up with 3 males.

So FR or others, what do you think will happen? My W.A.G. (Wild A$$ Guess) is that the first male with viable sperm will fertilize the eggs.

Here's a single female who hooked up with two seprate males.

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Yeah I thought the same thing that male #1 would be the lucky Father but in this case I wondered what 2 breedings within 24 hours of each other would make a difference especially if fertilization didint happen right away ???

Keith
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in my case those two pics were taken on the same night???
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

If you look at my site I experimented last year with 4 males to one female with two different female Corns. Three of the four clutches were very variable and offspring resembled all 4 males used. I did not do it again this year, but I know it is possible, but do not believe it will happen like this all the time Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

My guess is that the little ones will all look different. Of course, that's always a good guess with thayeri.

Sorry,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

I would say that yes, both can fertilize eggs of the same clutch and that you could get babies with two different fathers.
How you will tell (if it is not painfully obvious)which male did the deed may be difficult. And representing the babies a bit problematic if you want to be as truthful as possible.
Can't wait to see 'em!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Some people on this forum, are very concerned about local specific etc. even thought they do not actually understand what that means.

You mention representing the offspring. Without DNA tests, the offspring of this cross/mating, and local mating, can only be represented as crosses.

For instance last year I crossed a cal king with a thayeri, I also had pure thayeri males in with the female prior to the cal king male. Half the clutch appears pure thayeri, and half the clutch is without question Cal/thayeri crosses. I consider the whole clutch crosses, no matter what they appear like. Cheers

I know that it is possible for multiple males to sire the same litter but I don't know how common it is. It would seem to me that the first male would have an advantage. Especially if the female has just ovulated. Fertilization may or may not happen immediately after mating depending on the ovulation status of the female. I'm pretty sure that females can store sperm for at least a few weeks. There is an interesting thread somewhere below about sperm plugs that is also probobly relavent to this issue.
cheers

Well unless you have males with different morphs it would be hard to tell which is the father. FR had mentitioned a few weeks back that the actual fertilization actually takes place around the time of the pre lay shed. I have been to busy to confirmed this from any other sources so I am just going on his word on the matter.

I do know for a fact that I had a clutch from two different males 2 years ago with my hypo everglades rats. I had a normal male that was mis-sexed and he fathered 1/4 of the clutch as they came out normal. Shannon Brown also made a postabout the same thing a year or two back.

If FR is correct than I would have to think that either male has as good of a chance as the other. If all the sperm is just chilling out for a week than there is a bunch of time to mix up and get further in. Even if FR is not correct I would have to think that within 24 hours there is still room for both males to have fertilized a few eggs each.

Later Jason

Hey Guys,

I have bred a female snow plains garter to 2 male snows (Nebraska and Iowa strains) and got both Iowa snows and anerythristics (het for Iowa and Nebraska snows), indicating both males successfully bred. Pictured is a gravid female snow plains that was bred to both the Iowa and Nebraska snows again this year. Every year I expect to get all snows or all anerythristics but, to date, have only had combinations of the two.

Scott

I did not read the other posts, so I may be repeating whats already said.

Yes, two males can father a single clutch. But only if they breed the female before the cloacal plug is formed. This happens from a day to two days after the first breeding.

If bred after the plug has formed, then no sperm can enter the oviducts. Cheers

It was a little less than a day between breedings. Well when they hatch if in fact it was a fruitful union then it should be obvious....maybe lol.

Keith
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In crosses such as that you will notice a blend, most of the characteristics will be between both extremes of parents. Both colors and pattern will blend. That is normal, but if your lucky, abnormal happens(the unexpected)

You seem unsure of the ability for these to be successful. Is there some history on failure? Good luck with them, Cheers

Well I just dont count my eggs until they hatch or in this case fertilized and laid, just superstitous I guess Both males are first year breeders but the female is proven second year breeder.

Keith
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This is all good news to me.

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

It would not matter what bred what, Thayeri are highly polymorphic and are all results of crossing back and forth anyway.

What that means is, most all the individuals in captivity are many generations captive bred, they are produces of all sorts of different types of adults. Also being polymorphic(many colors and patterns from same genotype) You never know what to expect anyway.

For instance, I bred a female thayeri to a male thayeri for a couple of years, the results were all sorts of morph types. Then I bred her to a Black and white cal king, the offspring were all very similar to eachother. Lots more variation from variable kings, hahahahahahahahahaha Good luck

I still do have some issues with fertilization.

1st, I do have a prefered male. I'd like to make sure he is proven. At least a sure as possible with thayeri. LOL All but one of my males are first time,(unproven) males.

2nd, of the 5 female thayeri I have only one of them is proven. I do want to give all of them the best chance possible to mate with a male with viable sperm.

I know because of the polymorphic issues that I run the risk of not knowing for sure if a certain male has passed on his genes. Because I have so many unproven breeders its a risk I'm willing to take. My three favorite males all look a bit different and I'm hoping that at least some of their traits will be distinguishable.

Here they are.

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

N/P
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R.BICHLER

This might be of help. It's out of a book called "Breeding and Keeping Snakes by Dr. Dieter Schmidt.
Sorry it's not to clear. Half way down the first column, talks about the plug.6th and 5th line up from the bottom of first column read, "females with and without a mating plug because of the pheromone signal released" this sentence wasn't to clear on the picture.

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R.BICHLER

N/P
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R.BICHLER