Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone heard of Green Tree Dragon from Vietnam? Has anyone tried to keep them?

tra

I have 6 pattern less dragons from Vietnam, males have black heads green body, females all green. I keep them as my other dragons.

Thank you Jobi. I am fostering one now. She is quite a beauty. Her travelling companion did not make it... unfortunately. Can you give me some background on these beautiful creatures? Like how big they get, and do they make nice pets?

tra3

PS: your advise, as always, is appreciated.

PSS: Would you post pics of yours so I can see them?

I don’t know if mine are full grown? They are capra size for now.

I am sorry but I will never post photos of rare or hard to get species, I got my lesson long ago with varanids. I once owned 11 un described varanids, posting about some of them created a demand from the pet trade, then the science community got involved, then named them as new specie, this led to a total ban of export.

At present I own a few un described dragons, and no dough there will be more to come, in fact I am leaving for the Salomon islands on a collecting trip (hypsilurus ssp)
This is my life interest, That’s what I do collecting and studying reptiles.

I strongly advise you to keep your treasure pet for your personal enjoyment, Iv seen the devastation that overzealous collectors have don in the past, iv also seen the nonsense race to nomenclature and its negatives.

My passion for these animals is such that I refuse to be part of there commercialisation, I only post about the common already imported species, and this only if I think they won’t suffer from it.

Sorry I hope you understand.

Ps. One last thing! Never posted photos of babies of any specie and never will, every time someone those there’s a bloom of demands at dealers. But hey that just me!

Hi Jobi. Thanks for the post. The green tree dragon ate about four dusted crickets tonight. Feircely hunted them down, which surprised me, because she is so skinny. I did read that they are thinner than the Mountain Horn. Would you consider this a rare dragon? I have not found much on the Internet.

So far, my female Olympia is spending more time on the bottom of her enclosure. I think she is getting ready to lay her eggs. I changed the substrate to a moist earthy dark brown mix. It is soft like soil, and I think perfect for her to lay her eggs in.

I think they are more elongated then my other dragons, but I am sure mine are still young and have more growing to do. Yes I think they are rare!
These past few months I imported about a dozen dragon species not fond in the hubby, I know there are many more out there, maybe they are no rarer then those commercially available capra, crucigera, but maybe they are?

If theirs no demands for them trappers collect what’s easily accessible around villages, they only hunt elsewhere when $$ is involved. Personally id rather pay a fortune for a few specimens then seeing the market flooded with the new flavour of the month.

As for your dragon getting ready to nest, I already posted about this, hers a hint!!
I never post individually, all my post are aimed at all keepers in general, they all contain more then can be seen, it’s the keepers job to ask better questions.
Example; when I posted about nesting nobody asked anything, funny considering that nesting is vital, proper nesting is directly related to reabsorbing, retention or week egg development or weak babies. The choice of material is very important and females know this much better then we do. I keep seeing terrible nesting options, this could mean 3 clutches rather then 6-8 or more, because once you have the temps and hydration and food covered, nesting is the last stage to fine tune.

Tropical rain forest specie! Now hers a challenge for breeders, in fact many still don’t understand how they nest, I do for having been there and studied habitats.
Theirs no simple answer but the basics can be covered quit easily.

Your dragon will nest where the temps and humidity will allow her eggs to incubate, this means if your cage is saturated with humidity she will nest in easy drainable materiel like sand or even gravel as she would in the wild (rainy season), if your cage is low in humidity she will nest in dirt under leaf litter that retains humidity as she would in the wild (dry season) she’s will use any options in-between for her eggs to survive, hollow logs, saw dust, under rocks, and if no suitable nesting she may stop cycling until favourable days. usually they nest the first clutches at lower temps, these take longer to incubate, the next clutches are nested at higher temps following the season, the eggs nested at higher temps incubate faster, those laid late in the seasons often diapauses the entire winter. There you have it, there no one answer to nesting, it’s a variable event and the husbandry of eggs is as variable as that of lizards.

If you follow a strait recipe you will be greeted with failure more then success, if you make good observations of your captive and apply correctives when needed, then like me you will be one happy keeper.
Hope this helps.

Hey there Jobi. Thanks for the post and for the pictures. Your dagon shot is beautiful. Olympia is solid brown. Really pretty. She presented me with 12 eggs today. We are going to incubate them soon.

tra

Jobi, This is all very interesting. I will have to chew on this for a while, I am very tired right now and I'm afraid I can't fully get my mind around all of this. It does make sense that time of year, rainfall, ect, would cause the female to vary her choice of nesting site. Also temperature would be of impact.

If I were to vary the conditions of the habitat likewise I am sure I would see the same sort of varience. Since I do not, I get the same consistant results, the same consistant incubation times and the same 100% hatch rates.

You are saying though that the female would produce more clutches if given the variences? Am I understanding that correctly? I am not so sure I see the value of that when she is already gravid for 8 months why should we see her gravid for up to 14 months? Doesn't she physically need a rest period?

I haven't seen them in nature and I guess you would have to track one in the wild for over a year to see it's natural cycle. I just can't imagine it would have much of a life expectancy with that sort of reproduction cycle.

Very interesting though and I do see your point on the nesting sites. That makes very good sense.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Dear Marcia
Seems like you and I are going to have a ball these coming years, I am looking forward to it.

I know for a fact, these lizards love the heat if NTL are provided, I know they can nest at temperatures from 75f to 84f if allowed to choose, I know they don’t nest below 75f if they have the choice. I know there system works like all other lizards iv owned, this means there follicles can go full cycle within 30 days if they have the support (good food).
The life spend of lizards is not determined by its reproductive rate, some of mine have produced 15-20 year strait. However if we as keepers fail to provide support, then yes they will fail, its much easier to kill a reproductive female then a none reproductive.

How long do you think egg incubation will be at 84f? -55days?
This is a common number for this size of lizard, I don’t bother with details from literature that says otherwise. I know the reproductive rate of reptiles is limited by habitat, my job as a keeper is to allow them better options, my experience shows that this allows a higher reproduction rate.

The nest from my prior photos are all from capra’s kept in different conditions, in the least saturated medium they nested at higher temps, in the most saturated medium they nested at lower temps. The reason is a simple mater of survival, they know that eggs nested in les saturation media need to hatch faster to avoid dehydration. Clever beings!!

Jobi,
I am always eager to enchange ideas and that is something I have been missing ever since my fellow breeder 8 years ago got out of working with these creatures. Most of the people I deal with now are newer and have only started to breed, like Bonnie who is learning very quickly.

I have always kept my vivs in the 75-82F range during the breeding months, with the exception of my little guys, the ones you call crucigera, who laid their eggs during December during the cool down period. At that time I was keeping the room in the 72-76 range and the first clutch of those eggs hatched at approx 158 days which is about the same period I get with the ones bred during the warmer months.

I incubate in the low 70s only because any eggs that have been incubated highter than 75 have perished. The babies have used the yolk very early but not fully formed. Any that did hatch have been very small and thin, too weak to fully hatch. Most have perished only half out of the shell and those that did hatch fully have only lived a few hours. This has been experienced by myself as well as other breeders.

For this reason I have opted to incubate at lower temperatures and doing so I have experienced 100% hatch rate most of the time and have very few losses of hatchlings often raising 100% of the hatchlings to a sellable or breeding age depending on whether I keep them or not.

The shortest incubation time I have experienced was 126 days. I don't recall the temperatures right off. I have all of that information on my shop computer.

Again, I am not trying to contradict your statements, only to present what I have experienced. I do believe that there may be other ways of doing this and by all means the animals can show us the way. I am open to learning. If I had enough animals to be able to set up several groups in different tanks with different temperatures and substrates I would love to do so just to see the results. However, I am starting over from scratch right now with my capra. I have 1.5 armata and 2.2 of the little guys, crucigera or lepidogaster, whichever they turn out to be.

As for the heat, I will confess that I have finally caught my armata basking! I had to find the right angle and placement for my light. The coolest bulb I have is a 60 watt and I had to angle it so that it wasn't too close to the branch. Once I got it right the largest female was right there. Later the same day I saw anohter in the same spot. So, I will be leaving the light for them. It does make sense that the brighter colored animals would be more inclined to bask.

Anyway, I do look forward to further enchange! This is interesting.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Marcia I am very pleased that we can exchange, really this is the only reason I come hear.
I am new to these dragons and no dough I will make many mistakes, but also many discoveries. I am and will learn from you as you will from me, unfortunately I am the worlds worst teacher, This means more work for you. Sorry!!

Thru the years iv killed many eggs to understand there development, I see them much differently then most peoples. The embryo is an engine, the yolk is fuel, run the engine fast and it will burn fuel fast, This is what high temps do!

The reason embryo don’t mature at higher temps is simple, you see all organism (even your kids) grow in the resting period, to us this is when we sleep, the organism feeds on the foods we took while awake, the same principal applies to embryo’s, they feed when temps are high, if theirs no NTL there organism will not feed when in the rest period, this means they will continually burn fuel and waste away.

It will take me some time to fine tune the incubation of my dragons.
For starts I use your lower temps, but I raise my temps 3-5 degrees day time.
Eventually I want my eggs to incubate at 74f NTL to 84f DTH once I get there I will add or subtract depending on results, this is how I would have started, but you seemed convinced about your temperature range, so I was cautious.

I started keeping the adults with your temperature range, then progressed to gradient of 65f to 130f all my dragons use these temps, so that’s it for temp gradient.

I am presently working with hydration to see how they use it, and how can I better provide them with water.

Feeding; I started with a few foods to see witch would benefit them most, I discarded all worms and kept crickets and roaches, these will be my staple diet because it’s a proven diet that will support reproductive females.

Nesting; usually is the last thing to work on, but sins I started with mostly gravid dragons I needed nesting options first. Simply said these dragons are the easiest lizards iv ever nested, they will nest in anything that feels right.

Parasites; forget about them! It’s a waste of time and animals, I don’t bother about them and they don’t bother me. Kept in good conditions lizards can flush parasites faster then any drugs. No one proved me wrong on this yet, I am still waiting!!

A little story just for the fun of it, my old friend is teaching at a veterinarian school and invites me over once in a while, I think he’s plying with me and his students?
Any way the kids started a discussion about the treatment of parasites in reptiles, they all had there own opinion on drugs and dosage, of course the best students gave the lowest dosage and safest drugs like (metronidasole, droncit, panacure, fenbendasole) and they specified to witch parasites they applied and used. Then one asked me a specific question, how would you treat a lizard hosting intestinal round worms in the least amount of time, my answer was way to simple and fast for any of them to understand, a stomach flush. No drugs no side effects no money$ to simple, discarded.
Ok they said, without the stomach flush? My second answer shocked them and one said why are we studying if its this simple? 5 days without food or water makes the worms exit the host by the mouth, you simply need to take them with tweezers and re hydrate and feed your lizard, of course he will be on the edge, but no worst then on drugs and the benefits outweigh the risk. (Don’t Try This at Home) you need experience to do this.
rgds

Just for the record: To my experience capra hatchlings from eggs incubated at 25°C or higher are much less vital than siblings incubated around 22°. Temp drops at night do harm if they comprise more than 5° C.
The same holds true, albbeit to a lesser extent for G. chmaeleontinus, whereas eggs of G. belli can incubated at up to 28° with no problems.
Thats at least my experience and Froggie may see different thingsd. A lot depends on substrates and conditions of the mother.
But we ar ehere to exchange exoperiences.

Ci@o

Ingo

I agree with all you have said, I know you work these animals meticulously and take all necessary precaution to be successful. I understand all this and have nothing but respect for you and your work, same goes for Marcia.
However I see things differently for having experienced other ways, where you see one formula, I see more!
It seems unlikely that capras nest only once a year in nature, it seems even less likely that a second clutch would be laid in similar conditions as the first in the season, and so on.

All incubating eggs need a rest period, without it the embryo will not grow properly. You have experienced that 3-5 degree is tolerated by eggs, perfect this is what I need to know. A slight temperature drop needs to be constant, not just occasional for the embryo to develop normally, so I want to make sure we understand each other on this.

I know many thins I say will sound strange to many, but you have to see things how I see them to understand my thinking, while most of you are trying to duplicate nature for your lizards, I try to focus on there physiological needs, my husbandry has nothing or little to do with nature, I study the animals need then supply with the best tools I can, my goal is not to make super breeders out of them, but my experience shows that when we support them they out perform expectation. Therefore its there performance that tells me if I am providing properly, not literature.

Hm...I just may mention, that I am a biologist by training and that I am very aware of the difference in imitating nature just out of intuition and in understanding the physiology -and ethology!- of animals.
Do not get me wrong, but I have the impression that you tend to be a bit too enthusiastic about some things.
What works on the short run is not necessary the optimum. What works for generations should not be completely wrong.
Just contemplating...

Ingo

What works on the short run is not necessary the optimum.

Do you consider 8 clutches a year for 15-17 consecutive years short run?
Theirs no such thing as optimum, the best I can do is good, I think the above is good.

What works for generations should not be completely wrong.

No its not completely wrong, but it is partly wrong, reptiles are a product of constant adaptation, they have no choice if there habitat forces them to change. When the primary forests are logged and the secondary forest are reduced to small patches, not only will they adapt but they will be forced to use other tools to survive. As uromastyx and many other lizards have done, so what works for generation may be changing.

G. belli can incubated at up to 28° with no problems.

I think all these dragons can be incubated in this rang of temps, we just don’t know how yet.

A lot depends on substrates and conditions of the mother.

This is 100% true, the females condition is directly related to the conditions we give her, and even in the best possible conditions she need food that will fulfill her needs. Otherwise it’s a lost battle.

Ingo with your help I can make giant leaps, that’s why I came to you.
Its your expertise and Marcia’s that helps me see outside the box, you guys have already save me years of trials and errors. I do this for fun and enjoyment, not for recognition or publishing.

I agree with your temps. In fact, I have not had any success above 75F but have succeeded in incubating in the mid 60's farenheit! Those incubated above 75F seem to use the yolk to soon and are too weak to hatch. If they do they don't survive more than a few hours from what I have experienced. I have talked to others who have experienced the same results.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I wonder if both of you missed my point?
Therefore I will be specific and ask a direct question.

Have you ever incubated at 75-78f with a 5 degree drop at knight?

This is very clear to me, without this drop embryo will burn its fuel and die.
Answer yes or no! saying I incubated at 75f and they died means nothing, you can repeat that for ever and always get the same results.

One last time; developing eggs need a rest period (knight drops) how do you provide this rest period to you’re eggs?

Supervising and Providing a usable choice of temperature and hydration to eggs, is call egg husbandry.

To set up eggs in a container at a steady temp and humidity and hoping they hatch, is call luck. Sure you can adjust you luck with every clutches, but nevertheless its still luck.

No, I have never had the means to set up a controlled night drop. I know that there are fluctuations in my incubation temperatures as there are fluctuations in the temperature of my home. I am at the end of my incubation period on the eggs I have right now, and you are right, I would have to consider my tecnique luck, not science. I don't even have a thermometer in there right now. I will put one in and get exact temperatures for you. The thermometer I have records minimum and maximum temps so I will track the next few nights and see.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I´d say, Tra 3 is either talking about Gonocephalus doriae or female chamaeleontinus.
I would also not give to much on the origin mentioned by pet shop owners.

Ci@o

Ingo

They are very diferent from my group of doriae. They are slim body, short dorsal spikes with only 2 supra ocular horns similar to armata.

And you are aware of the appearance of Calotes emma and G. kuhlii??

I have a kulie that will nest soon! my favorit dragons.
I dont keep calots but know how they look.