Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

I just got home and I saw Sunshine acting weird. She'e on her branch and opens the mouth (for who is familiar with cats, I would say in the same way as a cat does when is about to regurgitate hair balls), pulls out her tongue all the way out and, turns the head toward her right flank all the way toward her rear. Did a series of this every 1-2 minutes; last few seconds. Looks to me almost like a contraction (???). She almost fell on the side once. She's still look alert, looking around, moving and seems like she has no problems with balance or coordination, normal color at rest no in distress or stress. I am testing her appetite (in the case is belly upset...). Only different thing than normal is that I fed her yesterday with phoenix worms (is that they are toxic to chameleons??) and she
ate with good appetite as usaual. ALso the male got the same meal and he's OK.

Has anybody ever seen anything like that? I took an appointment to the vet for tonight in a couple of hours, with the risk to sounds silly when I get there, but I really have no idea of that could be....

Please, help

Thanks, Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

hmmm... this does sound weird. Is she shooting with her tongue as if she is trying to get something OFF her flank? Can you see any mites or something (this is MERE speculation, frankly I have found if they want something off of them they just shakes their head and/or scratch with their foot like a dog.)

The cat puking visual (yes, familiar with THAT!) makes me think that she may have something lodged in her throat - can you see in when she does it? Maybe you can keep her mouth open for a second with a piece of cardboard (or finger :-O). Remember, they have no sphincter for their esophagus and they can aspirate.

The phoenix worms are fine, I have fed them to Cyrus, the blotchies and Darwin. I don't know what else to come up with. I am glad you can get her to the vet tonight - please post when you get home and let us know how you make out. I'll be thinking of you!

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - swifty and blotcha for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

thank you for your reply Lele.

Well, I am still going to the vet. AT this moment she is not doing it and she looks fine. She ate the 3 waxworms I gave her, to see if it was something with the G.I. tract, oh my! she ate them!
The tongue was staying out bent to the right for a few second and then she would turn on her right; she would also leave the tongue out for a little after it was done.
Wonder if she had anything stuck in her troat, but, in the doubt I keep my appointment. Worst case scenario she get a physical and full blood work done, I never took her to the vet....

I am setting up a critter box with 2 branches crossing and few leaves of a fake vine. Is it going to be Ok for taking her to the vet? Only the top is going to be vented.
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

you can fully close her in the box. Give her a branch to cling to and set her/it on a towel/sheet/t-shirt (not a terry towel or her claws may get stuck - tshirts are great for this). Close the box completely. if it is open or vented she will desparately try to get out - believe me! Since it will be dark she will likely sleep. There will be enough oxygen for the trip (I assume it is not too long? Luna's trip was laways 45 minutes and that is how I did it - usinf heat pack in colder months if needed).

I'm heading out, but will look for your posts later - good luck!!
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - swifty and blotcha for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I may be too late with this information but I'll post it anyhow.

First of all...I am not a vet....just telling you information from what I have read/heard/seen. I'm glad you are taking her to a vet.

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with her tongue. I'm saying this because she is leaving her tongue out and turning to one side. (If she was going to regurgitate something, she would likely bend/hang her head downward.)

Possibilities...
1)Could something have gone down where the tongue is stored in the floor of the mouth? It might be something that she can solve on her own, or she might need some help.

2)For some reason, she could be having trouble positioning her tongue back on the hyoid bone. If a chameleon gets its tongue stuck/tangled on something it can overstretch the muscle and they have difficulty getting it back in the right position over the hyoid bone. Another possibility is that it tore a hole in the side of the tongue so that when it tried to retract it, the hyoid bone would stick out through the hole and the tongue would not go back properly. A vet should be able to tell you.

3)Calcium plays a part in muscle condition...don't know if it could be something to do with that.

You said..."AT this moment she is not doing it and she looks fine"...you might be "lucky" and she's solved it herself...or you might find it happens again. It depends on why its happening.

Hope you get the problem solved!

Looks like she really is fine. The vet checked her tongue it wasn't stuck and was correctly retracted. She hasn't done it since this afternoon. Very probably somthing must have got stuck in her troath or something was borhering her in her belly. The vet checked her belly, which was fine, and found her in great conditions. She must have taken care of it by herself.
Well, not much information about that behaviour, but at least I know that Sunshine has no problem...other than being upset for the 40 min. one way trip, plus people touching her. I almost never touch the chams.; but she behaved well, didn't try to eat anybody, she was very sweet for a veiled (I just herd stories, never really seen aggressivness from the veileds yet).

The vet told me also that there's no way to reduce the number of eggs a female will lay even if not mated, it is just on individual basis, some veiled lay more than others, but she will consult with other reptile vets and get back to me. Just thought I passed on this opinion.
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

Glad that it was nothing serious and that she was able to take care of it herself.

Did you like the vet? Is this the first time you have met with her?

As for the clutch size, there may not be any scientific studies on it, more anecdotal. Kinyonga can tell you of her experience with few infertile clutches and her feeding regimen whereas Luna had 4 in 12 months and was developing again when my vet did the necropsy. I did not overfeed her intentionally, she would go weeks with no food when she was gravid and I would sometimes offer her Repti-Aid which she liked and ate and maybe she didn't really need it.

So many people breed their animals and I found it difficult to find advice from keepers (and vets) on the frequency and size of clutches. I may have told you that I had decided to try and find a mate for her. Not to keep the babies, but to see if I could get her hormones regulated. Unfortunately, it never happened because she died.

It will be interesting to see what your vet learns from her colleagues. Please be sure to post!

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - swifty and blotcha for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Lele, I will definitively post any further info I can get from the vet.
It was the first time I met her, a collegue and friend of mine take her kaiman to that office. I also saw them rated good at the American Association of Reptile Vets.

As for clutch frequency, I still believe that somewhat better body condition of the female may allow for better hormonal levels in the organism and better follicologenesis, hence, more eggs. I have been working in animal reproduction for a quite good amount of years now and I know this is true for horses amd for humans (in these cases, less chances of miscarrieges, but it is still all hormonally regulated). So, I would guess that chams are physiologically "programmed" to generate waves of follicologenesis every 3 months or so (same was for Sunshine, she laid the second clutch 3 months and 3 weeks after the first one), the body condition (feeding) might still have an influence on number and quality of the eggs. I really whish I could have my female not to lay for at least one year, like it seems to happens, though. So much still to discover about chameleons!

Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

From my unscientific knowledge (at least where chams are concerned, I know my 6-legged and 2-4winged better) that in nature if it is a good season - nutritionally - the animal might be more inclined to attempt reproduction compared to a lean nutritional season. I know that kinyonga has had a few females that did not produce inferts for a few years, so ask her about her regimen.

What do you do for work?
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - swifty and blotcha for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi Lele,

I spent more than a decade with (very) large animals (and mammals, so I am not experienced with coold blooded), horses, breeding, in reproductive phisilogy doing A.I. artificial inseminations, foalings, work with stallions in the breeding shed, mares superovulation and embryo recovery and transfers. That would take me to artificially manipulate the reproductive cycles of the mares. A couple of years ago I switched to a smaller mammal specie - that is the human as clinical embryologist (IVF- I always say that our lab in overcrowded, with all those people in the incubator!), so we are leaving all the hormonal manipulations to the MDs Still not as small as reptiles, not cold blooded and not with the same kind of eggs!

Chiara

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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

that you switched from horses to humans! Where do you live? I ask b/c my sister is very much the equestrian. Now mainly teaching; don't think she is doing much of her own showing these days. She works mainly with dressage - lives in Morriston, FL.
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

far from FL, I am in PA, Phila. I used to work with racehorses, standarbreds -STB- (trotters and pacers in the US, exclusively trotters in Europe) at that time I was in PA countryside. I did only 2 years with warmbloods with a lot of exporting frozen semen overseas....but my teaser mare, Irish Brook M, is(she still with me) a retired STB, trotter from good female family. I used to train stallions to collect semen artificially (off the mare)ultasounds, did some riding in my past, but never really been serious with riding and no shows at all. just breedings an science...
Miss them soooooo much! there's not that fun with humans.

My bosses used to go to Fl. for the show season with some of our stallions (had up to 12) but I never went with them.

Ch.
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

aks your hubby if he ever met Laurie Wolf (aka Laurie Dickerson when married). The horse world can be pretty tight
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

You said that you wished you could stop your chameleon from laying eggs for a year...I have three 3 year old veiled females that haven't laid a single egg. None of my veiled females produce clutches until they are mated. Once mated, they have gone on to lay fertile clutches. All of the fertile eggs hatch and after two months 95% of the hatchlings are still alive and well. The last few females that have died of old age were over 6 years old and the last one that died was over 7 having produced her last clutch when she was about 6. (It was fertile.) My males usually live to be over 7 too.

I control the feeding (and the temperature) of my female veileds to try to control the production of eggs. They are not starved or thin. When I mate a female and know she is producing eggs, I feed her well. Once she has laid the eggs, I feed her well for a few days and then cut her back. My clutches are all between 20 and 30.

I have thought that by controling the food, it was somewhat similar to the natural control on litter sizes of wild animals in lean years where they produce smaller (or no) litters because the food availabilty is low.

This site talks about food availability too...
http://coloherp.org/careshts/lizards/veilcham.php
"It is interesting to note that veiled chameleons do not produce this many eggs in the wild; wild veileds generally do not produce more than 30 eggs at a time. The reason for this phenomenon is not known, but many people suspect that seasonal fluctuations in temperature, photoperiod, and food availability have something to do with it."

Regarding hormones...in White-winged Crossbills (I know, its a bird...but maybe something similar happens with veiled chameleons?) they "found that circulating levels of reproductive hormones (testosterone in males; luteinizing hormone and prolactin in both sexes) at a given time of the year vary from one year to the other. These variations correlate with local food availability, but apparently not with changes in ambient day length."
http://www.public.asu.edu/~deviche/ResearchTopics.htm

As lele said, I have no real scientific proof of this....all I can do is tell you what happens with my chameleons.

Yes, it makes sense also to me.

How much and often do you feed your female chams when they are not breeding? Sunshine was found lean but not thin by the vet, I believe this is good condition, or not? I can see the tip of her hips bones and only when she moves, in particular when she stretches, it is possible to see the rib cage. When she is resting I don't see the ribs.
I really would like to be able to give her a break. She would really eat anything. She got fed this morning, she launched on the cup as soon as I put it on the branch , ate the superworms 2 by 2 and, in the pm she was at the cup waiting (never, ever fed her more than once a day)...

Thank you, Chiara

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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish

When the females are on the "cut-back diet" they get about 7 full grown crickets every two or three days (I feed less often in the winter than the summer due to the temperatures being cooler). I don't do an exact count...and the sizes of crickets that are available vary from week to week so its hard to be sure. (I'm saying crickets here, but I just want to give you an idea of the size of a meal. If I use waxworms, superworms, silkworms, etc. then the number of insects varies to make a meal of that size....hard to describe any better than that.) I also keep the females about 2C degrees cooler than the males to keep their metabolism a little slower...but not impede digestion.

You said..."Sunshine was found lean but not thin by the vet, I believe this is good condition, or not?"...that's how I would describe mine. They are by no means just skin and bones.

You said..."I can see the tip of her hips bones and only when she moves, in particular when she stretches"...can't tell you if that's what mine are like. Just haven't paid attention to their hip bones. But you said..."it is possible to see the rib cage. When she is resting I don't see the ribs"...that's close to what mine are like.

You said.."She would really eat anything"...mine would too.

Thanks,

Chiara
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1.1 Skipper & Sunshine - Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Jimmy & Hydra - Water Dragons
1.0 Trionix - Smooth soft shell turtle
1.0 Apalone - Spiny texas soft shell turtle
0.1 Irish Brook M - Standardbred mare (retired racehorse)
1.0 Sir Edward - Ragdoll cat, sire
0.3 Shannan, Jalisse, Slick - cats
?.? Some fish