Reptile & Amphibian Forums

well I just spent about an hour reading some of RDR's journal entries and found myself thinking, what am I really in this hobby for? Have I been grooming my collection for the long haul or the short stay? I think I've been doing it for the long haul, I've got a good variety and working with a partner on some breeding loans this year and the next few years that will help us both out greatly. But what got me really thinking is what are the rest of the small guys thinking? I see these prices falling and falling and I know those animals are worth more than the prices that are being asked. Now I know there has to be some dealing going on but common there has to be a line drawn somewhere. How does anyone expect to be able to make a sell when each week they have a new "lowest" price or "last" price drop. what does it say for their opinion of the "market". me personally I couldn't care less if my animals don't sell at the price that I think they are worth. I will grow them up and sell at the original asking price or higher or just keep them and breed more of them. It's really a simple concept to grasp. Each and every supply and demand type business has to have an increase in inventory for each price gap they are serving. If your $2500 snake doesn't sell for 2 years well when the price has dropped to 1500 you could be producing several more thus increasing your profit margin substantially. Yeah I know alot of people don't like to listen to Ralph because they think he's rude, well he speaks what comes to his mind, and that's integrity in my book. No he doesn't come on here to defend himself against slander or statements of cover-up's (I think i've even said he has tons more lessers than he tells us about, more than likely wrong on my part) because he doesn't have a need to. I've bought from him as many others have and will again as soon as I can afford the top quality of all the morphs he is working with. I doubt there is many people producing these same morphs that he is with any better quality. Ok well that's it for now i think, we all just need to wake up and realize what some of us are trying to do to this market, dropping prices weekly is not a good thing for you or the rest of us.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I feel your same pain at times and I have also questioned myself on this. I bought my pastel male for $2300 about 2 years ago and now u can pick up a baby for $500 or cheaper,but the way I look at it is all these people trying to make that quick buck sell their animals cheap and so fast, the fact is once their animals are gone their gone which reopens the door for a more stable price plateau,do I think they are wrong for doing it,thats not my call. I personally am in this for the long haul,AWESOME animals, AWESOME customer service and REAL hets will keep me selling animals to people FOREVER,I dont want the quick buck but I also dont want to hear that, ohhhhhhhh you should do it for the love of the animals,I love my animals but I like many others DID NOT make a multi-thousand dollar investment JUST for the love of the animal! I want to see myself and others succeed in this venture, (NCARY your one of them dog). I hated school and I love ball pythons so if my passion turns into a great money making business then thats what i was meant to do with my life without a college education. I feel people need to be smarter if they are in it for the long haul,but if they are in it for the short haul we wont have to worry about them in a year or 2,let them make their quick cash and be gone. Someone had said awhile back the days of $20,000 ball pythons are gone,why is that? if you have an animal that took a 1 in 16 chance to produce and it was made with 2 HIIIIIGH END morphs $20,000 is not absurd like people think,as long as SOMEONE is willing to buy the animals there will always be a market.I would LOVE to write so much more buuuut overkill is bad and trying to do it at 4am is even worse.

DISCLAIMER: the opinions expressed here today are that of the sole individual and in no way reflect the opinions of others!

blah, blah, blah.......haha

I im renovating my house, I need a new 4 wheeler NOW not next year.

I agree with you and Ralph 100%

Long haul.....

I agree about the long haul, A few years back I had a bad work injury that broke over half the bones in my body{ back,legs,arms,hands,wrist,ribs....} and left me partialy disabled and in a financial nightmare, I had to sell some of my collection off to help with funds but for the most part I have been able to hold on to large investment animals. Luckly for me my wife knows how much this means to me so she puts up with the struggle. This year some of my waiting will hopefully pay off and I should be producing pieds,clowns,albino,pastel crosses and so on but you can bet that I will price them on what I think they are worth and not what some of the LOWBALLERS are. I paid good money for top quality animals and thats what I am selling as well. Good luck to all. Thanks Erick
Exotic Designs

Eric brother I agree 100%, I had a steel beam roll off a flat-bed trailer on me about 8 years ago and had to have MAJOR back surgery and am due for another in the next few months, followed by a leg surgery due to nerve damage. I work 12-16 hours a day on a beer & wine delivery job humping cases all day and Im only 31 with many more operations down the road. I have ALWAYS loved animals especially snakes and stumbled upon the high end market about 4 years ago. So I have been trying to build up a little bit of a fall back nest egg (because where I live I make about 35K a year and with that I can live at about lower-middle class maybe upper-lower class range) but the little bit I do sell helps make ends meet. I also agree with xtreme I didnt drop (not 20K) but 8K on an animal to just love it but for the excitment of breding and making a little money on the side. I went to the Columbus Reptile show this month and happen to see female pastels Im guessing around 400 grams for around $500.00 and my jaw about hit the floor. Well Im done whinning Thanks for listening
Damian Macioce
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

Damian, Hang in there man, I am sure things will work out in the long run. Thaks Erick

Another thing people fail to realize...
These morphs have not even hit the pet trade yet.
I can't buy a pastel in a petstore in town. I have to go online and do it.

I've seen how people are. They will pay top dollar for animals that are different from what everyone else has.
Heck, people are paying $2000 for a puggle...
What's a puggle? It's a cross between a pug and a beagle. A mutt.
A mutt with a hefty price tag.

Once Pastels hit the pet trade, people are going to want them more.
Then we'll be right back where we started...low quantity, high demand...hence prices will shoot back up.

When I first decided I wanted to get into ball pythons...I won't lie...I saw $45,000 for a pewter and said "Damn...I can get rich doing this!"
But now, I just want to make the ones I want.
I want a pewter, I want a super pastel, I want a bumblebee...etc.
If along the line I make some money selling extras...cool beans.
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-Man fears the beast in the Wolf because he does not understand the beast within himself.

I agree with you on all you had to say. Pastels will make a comeback as soon as they start showing up in pet stores, people will love them the demand will go up and so will the price, we seen that with ghosts last season they went from like 1000 males like 1500-2k females to like a 3k min. I too seen how much they went for liked the idea simply because hey I could breed em then get more high end animals, how can one go wrong? I myself only have a pastel and a couple normal females but will be putting everything I get out of these into Pieds Ghosts and some Albinos, maybe even Mojo's I thing they are great. I mostly concentrate on Boas (we dont have the same issues the ball people do lol) Here is a pic of my pastel, got him in 2005 he was a 2004. I got him from PP

Here is one of my boas just to show you all what your missing

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Brandon Nixon

There is a local reptile shop that has two male pastels out on the floor for sale. Both males were breeding age and were PP stock. The smaller male sold within two days of being put out but the larger male is still available. So in my area they are slowly starting to hit the pet stores. But I don't agree with that they are going to be sold a lot and create puplic demand for them. The average joe schmo is not willing to buy a pastel for $500 when he can get a normal ball for $60 or even a little corn snake for $40. At least from what I've seen. Because the market here in Nor Cal is parents with youngins that are just looking for a really cool pet and I seriously doubt that really cool pet is going to be $300 snake. Even at the local reptile shows most of the morphs just sit on display unless a local morph breeder picks one up and even then I've them try to really barter to get the snake WAY down below it's value. I think the morphs aren't even being offered for sale because there is no market for them here. Now that is not to say that won't change but it hasn't at all in the last thee years. I'm sorry to say that even high end boas just sit (I'm not a boa fan, been there done that, will never do it again). People in Nor Cal are LAME! lol Normies sell like hot cakes here. So I would'nt expect the morphs to be a commonly bought animal any time soon. Normies I sell locally but when my pastel becomes fruitful and multiplies they are being sold online. That's going to be the only way for me to get what I feel they are worth.
Do you know what I mean????

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Christine
Tails With Scales Reptiles
Happiness is biting my snake back!

Pastels will hit more pet stores ... they have been mass producing them for a couple of years with this in mind. Two years ago they said they planned on selling Pastels in pet stores for $400 within a couple of years. Looks like it is starting.

Christine, I love your Pastel, nice picture!!

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gail

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SBF

(again this is in my area) The animals are not quite moving as quick as they are hoping I don't think. Personlly I think it would be really cool to walk into a local pet/reptile store and see a nice albino or pied sitting on display or for sale. I love to oogle at morphs! But sadly not everyone shares my love of oogling and concerns of theft on an animal is really high. hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm Did I have a point with that?

Thanks for the compliment on my "Dexter" (NERD Pastel). I am really pleased with him. He is growning like a little weed and is still holding his loud obnoxious colors. lol
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Christine
Tails With Scales Reptiles
Happiness is biting my snake back!

i love that his head is right next to the word "money"!!!
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1.0 ball python "wolfgang"

Altruism doesn't exist in the Ball Python market - the sooner that is realized the sooner we can stop all these threads baggin on people dropping prices. People will continue to price their animals to move them that is why they are n the ball breeding business - most people don't have the luxury or want to hold back several generations of snakes because they don't sell (and ask yourself why they aren't selling). For some of us little guys holding back a few extras may just mean additional stock to breed - but for those that are mass producing them and then end up with more than the market can sustain they only have one option - drop the price to move them out. It's not the guy that has a dozen snakes to sell and is selling them below market that drives the market price - its those that have hundreds or thousands of mass produced snakes that have no where to sell them that does. But its their right to price them at what they think they are worth. Breed what you like, sell them fairly, stop worrying about Joe Schmoe and live happily ever after - its all good!

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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

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signature file edited 5/2/06

You the majority of the people who are selling bps have little or no prior business experience. Look around and you will notice the people who are at the top of the trade are indeed skilled businessmen and thats the main reason they are on top. unfortunately the market is set up in a way where KS classifieds dominates and sets the market standards. The market the business the trade etc people talk about it who have no right having an opinion because they lack the experience and know how most of them have regular work for the man day jobs.

IT IS WHAT IT IS.

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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

The market the business the trade etc people talk about it who have no right having an opinion because they lack the experience and know how most of them have regular work for the man day jobs.

Everyone has a right to hold an opinion. In the United States, everyone also has a protected right to express an opinion. Our First Amendment guarantees that right. Most of us have taken courses in economics (and civics and grammar by the way), and the concept of supply and demand is not difficult. "Experience" is nice but not necessary. Some people have plenty of "experience" and even success in some aspect of business but are still clueless about important parts of their own business.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

I guess that all depends on what one thinks the meaning of "skilled" is.

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gail

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SBF

from what i know of you i would definately put you alongside the skilled people

should I take that as a compliment?

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gail

_____
SBF

Yes it was a compliment, dont think im a total #$^% i just cant deal with all of the sky is falling and complaing etc that i read on these forums its a market just like any other,,,,,

seems nobody admits they do it for a profit but they all complain about the market.

weird huh

That's why you need to take what is written on the forums with a grain of salt, otherwise you will be needing blood pressure medication.

Some of the posts in this thread have made some good points, pro and con.

But nothing will ever be solved on a forum. All you can do is vent, well, vent a little, very, very little ...
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gail

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SBF

first off I'm not complaining about prices dropping, actually the exact opposite. Those that are complaining about the market prices are the ones that are dropping prices weekly and then complain about having to do it. I was just giving a proven alternative to dropping the price down in half just to try to sell a snake. (Notice I say try because many are still not selling). Everyone knows that a $10k snake is only worth that if it sales or produces babies for you that you can sale so why take the same snake that others are selling many of at that price and cut down the price in half, just doesn't make sence and that's what I'm saying. Build some inventory, make double, tripple co-dom crosses, mix in a recessive with that and go make some money, it takes time, skill, and dedication to do it. It's hard work, even harder if you have a full time job but it's all worth it.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

One thing you are forgetting Josh is that people do this for different reasons:

There are the people that just want to produce a lot to make money and move on to something else and don't mind taking a $100 or $200 hit (or more) on every animal even if in the end it ends up costing them thousands - they save a lot of time and generally sell out first - they have no desire to hold back - their goal is to move them out and move on.

There are people that don't want to have to raise up a dozen pastels they couldn't sell at $700 each - they just want to sell them off so they can afford their mojave if they sell a little short of what they had planned it's not big deal theyve made their money. Think about how many people you know that have to sell off all their pastels so that they can aford that spider so that they can produce bumbles in the next few years.

There are others that just don't care that much about the money and will price them somewhere around what they see posted.

Some people just don't have the luxury or the desire to hold back several animals - where others actually plan to hold back several. Its one thing to have a dozen babies sitting in a rack - but once they outgrow that hatchling rack - finding space for them isn't always that easy for some people.

Everyone has their own motivation and breeding plan - whos to say one is more right than the next persons.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

Well said .. sometimes it's difficult to see other perspectives.
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gail

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SBF

i agree with you 100%. my post was about those that like to moan and groan about them not getting the profit margins they want in the first year and sell everything for rock bottom prices and thus can't make higher quantities the following years because they sold everything at those rock bottom prices. I know alot of people have to start off with the cheaper morphs and sale off as many as they can to afford more expensive morphs, that's not what I was refering to.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I say its like this:

1. breed em for fun keep em all as pets
2. breed em for money keep none sell em all
3. breed em for fun and money
4. breed em for investments and hold back etc etc

Im sure there are many other scenarios but the point im trying to make is do it for your own reason and dont worry what the next guy is doing.

Different strokes for dif folks.

Exactly....besides,you are about garaunteed to change places on that list along the way anyway....god knows i have.
Either that or you(that's the proverbial "you" btw)will just be one of the people that quits.
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

N/P

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gail

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SBF

I agree to a point that one little guy with a dozen or two snakes to sell can't drop the market. However, fifty little guys constantly dropping the prices daily will give the illusion of a market that doesn't have buyers out there. One instance is a small breeder with the same trio of a morph on the classifieds since august. each week he has dropped the price at least $100 and they are still up for sale. it's not the price that's the problem, it's that person's selling tactics. The average person buying these snakes only look at the classifieds to get an idea of the market and then shops at shows. If the new buyer were to see these prices dropping weekly and still no sales why would that person drop a few grand on a snake that they think they may not be able to sale their babies to recoup their investment? these snakes sell. However there is enough of a competition that just placing an add in a classifieds isn't enough anymore. If you want to do this as a hobby great, more power to you. But if you want to make money and be a player at any level on a business scale, think business. No business sells out their entire inventory, if they did they would go broke eventually as the supply would not be able to keep up with the demand as prices stabalize at pet trade levels which will happen eventually. Holding animals back that don't sell is the best way to achieve an increase in animals for the following years. Remember, these animals don't cost an arm and a leg to feed or house. you can house them for less than $100 each animal and feeding them even if you have to buy shouldn't cost more than $200 a year. Off the first sale of a baby you have made back your investment in growing that animal up. it's fairly simple business plan if you think about it, the hard part is marketing yourself and your animals. Yes i know people have the right to try to sell their product at what they think is fair, but trying is not selling and you have to sell yourself along with the snakes.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Unfortunately Josh, it's been that way for a long time. It's very frustrating, but I don't see that changing any time soon.

Have any pics of your dogs? I take it you must have American Pit Bull Terriers
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gail

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SBF

here's my big boy Chief, he's Old Family Red from Red Ranger Kennel bloodline. he's huge at 24" at the shoulder and weighs 88lbs.

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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

What a great looking dog ... he has a great face and head!!

Thanks for posting the pics
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gail

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SBF

thanks for the kind words. I was going to breed him but I was told the market for high end pit bulls was gone. lol. I'm currently looking for a nice female to give him a little companionship but there are very few true dog people that know what bloodlines to breed now-a-days.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Good to hear from you again!!!
Glenn

First, your comments would be easier to follow if you'd organize your thoughts and use paragraphs. I've read your post three times now, and I'm trying to understand your point or points. I think the main point you were trying to make is in these sentences.

It's really a simple concept to grasp. Each and every supply and demand type business has to have an increase in inventory for each price gap they are serving. If your $2500 snake doesn't sell for 2 years well when the price has dropped to 1500 you could be producing several more thus increasing your profit margin substantially.

I disagree with this description of supply and demand. If prices are dropping, they are dropping because supply in the market has risen relative to demand. Unless you are the only supplier of an animal, you can't control the supply level in the market. As long as the supply is increasing relative to demand, the prices will drop.

Keeping back some of your animals to breed more of them will temporarily keep the supply low, but your greater production means that your supply is rising. If your personal economic situation allows you to sit on the snakes long enough, you could keep trickling them into the market slowly and get high prices for every individual snake, but unless the demand increases, you're not going to be able to sell all of your animals at the high market price.

To use your numbers, let's say that the demand for Morph A at $2500 is 10 snakes per year. Unless you can stimulate demand for these animals, you'll never sell more than 10 animals per year at $2500. Breeding more of them just means that you'll have more mouths to feed for the $25,000 per year market (10 snakes per year at $2500 per snake) that you're supplying. Planning for the "long haul" is meaningless unless your "long haul" plan includes a way to increase demand at the price you're trying to set.

Let's say that the demand for this morph at $1500 is 50 snakes per year. In that case, the market is worth $75,000 per year (50 snakes per year times $1500 per snake). If someone has the snakes to sell, I can't blame him for pricing them at $1500 per snake and capturing this bigger market. You may not like this development, but a free market is only a reflection of the choices of individuals free to buy or sell as they see fit. If someone else wants to capture this market and has the inventory of snakes to do so, you can sit on your snakes $2500 until the world ends, and you're not going to find buyers for them.

Your other challenge is that when you sell your 10 snakes per year at $2500, you've added 10 new potential suppliers to the market. (Obviously, if some people buy more than one, there will be fewer than ten who have them.) Eventually, these ten people are going to have hatchlings of this morph that they'd like to sell. They may or may not want to follow your strategy of keeping the price at $2500 by trickling only 10 snakes into the market every year. Furthermore, how are you going to decide who gets to make those 10 sales? Your financial situation may allow you to sit on the extra snakes in order to keep the price high, but if those who've bought them are in a different situation, they'll lower their price until they can get the cash that they need.

I work for a large company, and every year or so, my company makes me take anti-trust compliance training. This training is designed to keep us from saying or doing things that could be violations of anti-trust laws. The training is designed to keep me out of jail and the company from paying huge fines. If a government bureaucracy cared about the python business, they would call your post an example of price-fixing and would prosecute you. I suspect that if you discovered big companies doing this with things that you buy, you'd scream for punishment. However, when you find yourself in the seller's position, you think it's just good business to propose price-fixing and scorn the "little guy" who doesn't go along with your plan.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

What a well written post. Thanks Bill for pointing out that perspective, I never thought of it as price fixing. A well thought out post as usual.
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gail

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SBF

Awesome post man!! Now there was a post posted by a "moral" business man everyone! Good job Bill!
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Mike & Wendy

2.0.0 Siberian husky, Jackrussel/schitzu
0.0.1 Ball Python
1.0.1 Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Beardie
4.0.0 Beta's
3.1.0 Future Herper's

I agree. I wonder how many people that want to keep ball morph prices artificially high complain about the oil companies charging $3.00 a gallon. It's great when your selling, but not when your the buyers. Whether everyone likes it or not there are too many breeders of ball pythons to keep prices at a fake "market value". The oil companies can do it because there is a limited supply and limited producers. I have have spent quite a lot of money on snakes from large and small breeders and I have came away from all transactions feeling like I paid a fair price for high quality animals so even when the price inevitably drops I will feel good about my purchase and will still make some money when I produce babies. I just don't understand when people complain about this almost every week on these boards. My opinion is if you want to make money stick with recessives, or double hets. A 1 in 16 snake will never be cheap.
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John Vandegrift

1.2 Het Pied
1.1 Het Lavender Albino(SK)
1.1 Het Albino
1.7 normals

I was by no means saying to fix the prices. Yes I know that prices won't stay at the $2500 year after year. What I was saying is that if someone has 20 snakes to sell and prices them at $2500 and only sells 10 of them, instantly dropping the prices weekly is not a good business practice. Keeping the rest and slowly selling them off or growing them up is a wiser choice.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

you are saying, but I think you are looking at it from a small scale perpective. You have to remember some people that are in this as a bussiness and not a hobby are producing hundreds of codoms a season. For them they would rather sell 2 of 3 hundred of them at $1000 than a 50 at $2500. You can say hold them till they get bigger, but as you are doing this the price of babies will continue to drop. I know for me I would rather buy a baby at $1000 than a yearling or even 2 year old for $2500. The problem is not with droping prices, the problem is the breeders producing hundreds of pastels, spiders, mohaves...In the end for alot of people this is only a bussiness and they could care less about producing somthing new or interesting. I don't really like it any more than you, and I would never buy from a mass producer of codoms but there is not much that can been done about it.
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John Vandegrift

1.2 Het Pied
1.1 Het Lavender Albino(SK)
1.1 Het Albino
1.7 normals

that's sorta what I am saying but I was mainly aiming my statements to those people that aren't making hundreds of the co-dom morphs that are selling alot at whole-sale prices. those breeders know where they are going and don't care if they loose money on each snake because they have ton's of inventory. The person that has a small inventory and is not selling off to move up in this business is who my statements were aimed at.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

So don't quit your day job! I have a well paying job that I work Monday-Friday, basically 7am to 3:30pm. I got into Ball morphs basically to have my collection pay for itself, and maybe pay for a vacation every year. Yes, I will sell a male Pastel for $50 less than everyone else to make a sale, BUT, it will be alot harder to get that deal on a female. Why, obviously as a Ball breeder, you can never really have too many female morphs, but you only need one or two males of a certain morph, so why not sell the surplus males vs. hold onto them. Just because you want to quit your job, sleep in until noon everyday and be a big time Ball breeder, with 15 snakes, do not judge the person trying to make a little spending money and keep the morphs they like. THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR, BUT I HEAR THE SAME COMPLAINT OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER EVERY WEEK OR TWO ON THIS FORUM...

.....I see these ads......and I still think they are nuts and I can get the stuff cheaper.....they are too high and yea they can drop it 10% and make you think they are helping you.......they aren't........

prices are all over the place.........

and lessers are down to $8G......and dropping........so what the heck....

........keep them all..........sell them in 10 years as old breeders

what the heck?

........make money even at $100 for babies.........

balls live long enough............right?
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JYReptiles

Scales-N-Tails Reptiles ltd........Pa

If the IRS knew what these animals sold for and starting checking the people selling them I bet the ones dropping their prices by 50% every week would be gone fast, they wouldn't be advertising since most probably just pocket the money without claiming it. The guys that are big breeders and holding their prices have to claim it all and everything since they are actual businesses.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com