Reptile & Amphibian Forums

They dont look like normal pastels or normal spiders to me.

The "marker trait" that is visable in some "normal" het pieds seems to be causing a more noticeable mutation in those two morphs. Having only one copy of the Allele shouldnt make them any different than a wild type animal if its recessive. Here is what I found.....

"Technically, the term "recessive gene" is imprecise because it is not the gene that is recessive but the phenotype (or trait). It should also be noted that the concepts of recessiveness and dominance were developed before a molecular understanding of DNA and before molecular biology, thus mapping many newer concepts to "dominant" or "recessive" phenotypes is problematic. Many traits previously thought to be recessive have mild forms or biochemical abnormalities that arise from the presence of the one copy of the allele. This suggests that the dominant phenotype is dependent upon having two dominant genes and the presence of one dominant and one recessive gene creates some blending of both dominant and recessive traits." Source: Wikipedia

Anyway, just an interesting read I thought.

And until someone proves me wrong I still think there is a "marker trait" for the Lavenders too.

Either way I cant wait to see piebald everything....

What do you think the marker is for Lavenders? I have a pair of 100% hets from SK and a 50% het and they all look way normal to me. The only thing I notice that is slightly different about them is they all have nice flames, but tons of normals do too. They are # 0507hlavalb06f2-7, and 0506hlavalb01m1-6 on Snake keepers site if you want to see a pic of them. The pics on their site are not the best, but they are better than I can get with my camera phone. I will get a few picks up tonight if I can get any decent ones.
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John Vandegrift

1.2 Het Pied
1.1 Het Lavender Albino(SK)
1.1 Het Albino
1.7 normals

Its not really a marker but the rumor floating around is that they are alot lighter when they are born but they go back to looking like the rest after the first shed.

Check ralphs site, I havent found one pic of a 100% het cluch. Plenty of het x het ones and you can see a couple babies have a different look to them. Could just be natural variation but the rumor is still out there.

But there are plenty of 66% clutches on his site and I don't really see any difference in the hatchlings from witin the same clutch. I do agree that a couple of the cluches babies are brightly colored but it seems to be all of the babies in those clutches. The main reason I don't really buy the marker thing is that if it was true why does ralph not have any 66% females for sale? If he could pick out the hets why wouldn't he sell the others females as 66%ers?
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John Vandegrift

1.2 Het Pied
1.1 Het Lavender Albino(SK)
1.1 Het Albino
1.7 normals

Has he not sold any 66%het females? Were they all presold and didnt make it to the available page or is he keeping them all.

Not sure if he presold them. I was talking about he has not had any on his available page.
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John Vandegrift

1.2 Het Pied
1.1 Het Lavender Albino(SK)
1.1 Het Albino
1.7 normals

Yeah, Id like to know if he sold any or not. I remember him saying over half of the babies from 05 were presold.

"The main reason I don't really buy the marker thing is that if it was true why does ralph not have any 66% females for sale? If he could pick out the hets why wouldn't he sell the others females as 66%ers?"

I don't know anything about het lavenders possibly looking different or not but if they did I don't think a reputable breeder like Ralph Davis would pull out the het looking ones and sell the others as full percentage possible hets. Back when he first sold possible het pieds he was pushing hard to sell whole clutches of possible hets together which might have been a way to keep straight around this moral gray area. I think it's important that we discuss the possibility of co-dominant tendencies in recessive morphs because there is a possibility for abuse but I'd like to think many breeders would take the high road and find some way not to short change uninformed possible het buyers.

Gary,

You probably already saw this post, but thought I'd add it for others to use as reference and to see the animals being talked about.

Greg Graziani's post with pictures: http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1016293,1016293

Good entry that you found as well in Wikepedia, sums it up decently well. I just can't wait as more and more designer crosses are coming out to see how the interaction between the morphs causes phenotypic changes with recessives being expressed in the het. form in conjunction with other traits.

Also, as always, hoping that the first Homozygous Spider Pied will be called the "S'Pied'er"

-Dan

I've heard that perhaps the pastel het stripes tend to be different looking also.

But here is a twist for you. If recessive and co-dominant are imperfect text book terms that don't always fit the real world genetics 100% of the time could there not only be "recessive" mutations like piebald with sporadic co-dominant tendencies but also "co-dominant" mutations with sporadic recessive tendencies?

I'm no yellow belly expert but I've now seen a few including two cases of animals from an ivory producing line where those animals had some characteristics of being a yellow belly but not all of them. Where one or both of these really genetic yellow bellies but just ones that for some reason tended to act a bit more toward the recessive end of the spectrum (i.e. more normal looking het rather than the usual more radical co-dominant type het)? Maybe they (neither old enough to breed yet) where just normals and knowing they where from that line I was looking too hard for the partial yellow belly characteristics. Still, they had enough of the characteristics that knowing there background I would certainly considered both worth trying as possible yellow bellies (neither my animals).

Thats a very good point. Personally Ive never had any yellow bellies to look at very closely. Sure I can look at the pics all day long but I still couldnt tell one from the fancy normals.

The genetics behind all this keeps it interesting thats for sure

That's an interesting view Randy.(a "co-dom" expressing recessivly.)

You do know though....that you probably just made a hundred or more people get up from the pc to go look at their own potential yb just one more time. lol ()

When we all saw Jollifs first pics of his possible het axanthic pastel hatchlings...we thought "Wow,look how the pastel shows the het axanthic".

I guess though that the other way to see it could also have been "Wow look how that axanthic gene recesses the co-dom pastel gene."

cool topic ya'll
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.