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Price guide 2006

rwoodyer May 07, 2006 02:20 PM

Since so many people are complaining about rapidly dropping prices, I think it might have something to do with them being suprised by the dropping prices. Thus, here is my unofficial price guide for 2006 effective starting in august.

Morph Male Female
Pastel 300 600
spider 2000 1500
cinny 2500 2500
YB free 1000
Mojave 2000 2500
O.Ghost 1500 2500
pied 2500 2500
albino 1500 1700

These are just what I expect the prices to be and in no way reflect what I hope the prices will be. The underlying theme is almost all of the prices are going to continue to drop always, no matter what. It sucks, but no amount of ranting is going to change anything. This is unfortunately a business and as such all prices are maintained by supply and demand, the only way we can effect the prices is by altering either supply or demand. So if you want prices to go up, convince everyone you know to stop making your favorite morph, or start buying every one you see for sale to up the demand No matter what anybody says, everyone wants to make money.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

Replies (44)

toshamc May 07, 2006 02:24 PM


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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

thisdude May 07, 2006 02:27 PM

honestly i dont think a post like this is good for the market lol

even if its close to the truth u dont want people basing their prices off some post they read on KS forums.

how about we just sit back enjoy ourselves and let the prices fall where they fall

avdnco May 07, 2006 04:58 PM

np
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

cole2006 May 07, 2006 06:55 PM

I agree, joking about the market can cause a fluctuation in the market.

Hopefully, that is being considered when writing the WIR. Folks may think what they want about it, but look at how many read it. That is a pretty serious amount of responsibility. Do have fun with it, can't imagine how long it takes to write... We'll be waiting.

Just my $.02.

GaryCrain May 07, 2006 02:42 PM

Same year proven genetic, $8k vs $500 for males.

Regardless, the prices always go back up a bit around september on breeder size animals. Sure that Mojave may sit on the shelf for 6 months but ill get $6k for it in October if hes ready to breed.

Also work the ROI out on buying a Mojave male at $4k and putting him on a few females. You can pull 120% of your investment back in a year easy. That beats the hell out of a mutual fund.

havic May 07, 2006 02:59 PM

lol
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1.2.0 ball python (aragorn, arwen,`eowyn)
1.0.0 100% het pied (frodo)
1.0.0 columbian boa (squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
0.0.2 whites tree frog (trevor, kirmet)
0.0.5 pacific green tree frogs
3.2.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

"snakes are kind of like potato chips, you cant have just one"

jeff7777 May 07, 2006 03:10 PM

i am new to the world of snake husbandry and breeding. 100%. and because of this, i think that my opinion is much different than most of the people on here who have tons of great experience. so i look at morphs the way i look at computers. i can pay top dollar for the top model, or scale it down to my budget.

but also, it is very important to see that prices for anything will always 'level out'. when a new concept hits the market, the price is always through the roof. as sheer numbers of said product are more and more available and commonplace, the price always drops.

dont get me wrong, i love snakes and i want breeders to do really well and to be happy, but this might be a reality for everyone in the market. i think this advertisement will sum up my point fairly well:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/oldharddrive.html
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1.0 ball python "wolfgang"

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 03:24 PM

That you may see most if not all simple recessive morphs spike up a little bit. It is supply and demand and there is a huge shift in the market. We are still selling a ton of snakes but more simple recessive now. Every breeder can see this shift which is making simple recessive stuff like gold. Now all of a sudden you see breeders wanting to trade animals for homozygous females. We have loads of homozygous females and aren't releasing any untill we 15 of each for that reason. We should be there on most of our projects at the end of this year. But back to the issue here is that the demand has gone up period. They are harder to make and need larger projects. They aren't going to drop like Codoms. Pieds will not be in the 2k range this year you will see. Everyone saw that one person price that one too low but that doesn't change the market. We would just sheleve them all before we sold a pied for that. They will be more than they were last year mark my words. Everyone wants simple recessive stuff. The codoms have stabilized and are still a great investment. We are selling a ton those right now. The Simple Recessive stuff is gold right now and will be in the future. It is the stable investment for the ball python enthusiast because they are alot harder and more costly to reproduce. Codom stuff will drop because you can take one male and breed it to a bunch of normals and make the same animal. Doesn't work that way with simple recessinve morphs. You need het females and so on. The market is not crashing so don't kid yourself into thinking that it is. Like I said Codoms adjusted that is about it and that made simple recessive stuff on fire. You ask any big breeder and ask if he thinks simple recessive stuff will drop this year. He will look at you like you are nutz.. I am telling you that some morphs like the "Clown" and other simple recessive stuff are going up in price. Actually our sales are up 40% this year so far from last year. Business is booming people. The market is growing big time right now. It ismuch bigger than just kingsnake.

Joe at MKR
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-RoYaLpYtHoN- May 07, 2006 03:33 PM

np
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James

GaryCrain May 07, 2006 03:53 PM

Well Said.....

rwoodyer May 07, 2006 04:51 PM

that simple recessives will not take as big of a hit in prices due to supply and demand. However, they will still go down. I have already seen pied females for 2000...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 05:28 PM

And they will be kicking themselves when they see what they will be going for after Daytona. That is the truth.

Joe aat MKR
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rwoodyer May 07, 2006 05:42 PM

Maybe, but I know of a couple of breeders that have pieds numbered in the hundreds and a lot more smaller breeders that have 20 or more of them waiting to be sold. Where are they going to go? Admittedly, they are an awesome morph, even as a stand alone, and admittedly demand has gone up, however, production of pieds has been great last year and this year will be no exception. Demand cannot keep up. Try to sell yours for 5000, while the guy next to you is selling them for 2000, see how many you sell

Prices will go down slower for recessive morphs, simply because you cannot buy one male and put it with 20 normal females and produce a ton of them. However, prices will go down. Think about what you are saying, lots of people want recessive morphs, right? I agree that this might stabilize prices initially (especially since a lot of breeders aren't selling their females), but why do people want them? So they can make money off of them. How? By producing more of them. The result? Lower prices.

Also, you can think of co-doms as recessive hets, it is just as easy to produce homozygous co-doms as it is to produce homozygous recessives. Mixing is easier with co-doms, prices for the super forms are just as stable as recessive morphs, and the hets are visible, which means way easier to sell and for more money. I'm not really seeing the huge advantage to recessive morphs.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 05:53 PM

And every other big breeder won't either. Just beause we have some left over doesn't mean we need to sell them. I keep almlost 65% of what I produce and I am not alone. You watch. They are going up just as sure as codoms were going down. All those pieds that Pete has and everyone else will sell for more this spring. I know Ralph doesn't have any pieds available, I don't and we produced alot last year. The market is strong. Pete is the father of the project so he has a lot of them as he should. He is constantly updating his stuff. But if you can grab them at 2k buy as many as you can bcause they are going up period. Especially the females. There is a huge shortage of homozygous females period. I am producing a ton of homozygous stuff and If I release 5 females total it will be alot for all of my projects combined. That is the way the market is going. You will see. I am just trying to explain the shift in the market to you so you can make the right choices for yourself.

Joe at MKR
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rwoodyer May 07, 2006 06:07 PM

I as well as everyone else around here is aware of what is going on with recessive females and breeders keeping them, that has yet to make the prices go up (it has been going on since pieds were first proven genetic 7 or so years ago), there is still a huge surplus. When the big boys start to unload (think enron here), well I don't think the market is going to crash, there is plenty of demand, but prices will drop. The key is to make your money off the enron stock, I mean recessive morphs, while the price is still high.

Think about this, if you keep 65% of what you make every year. If you have 200 pieds and you breed 100 females

600 eggs x 0.65 --> 390 you are going to keep?

Wow you have a big facility
when those 390 reach breeding age and you have 500 breeders that produce 3000 eggs are you going to keep 2000 hatchlings?

I'm sure you'd like to see prices go up, so would I.
Let's be realistic though.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 06:16 PM

Where have you seen a father of a project dump it and unload all of them. You haven't period. I don't see hundreds of pieds on kingsnakes classifieds? Maybe a few Mojaves and spiders but that is about it in big numbers. I am telling you these people that are selling these homozygous animals short are going to be sorry. They are costing themselves thousands and I hope they are reading this right now. Jumping over 100 dollar bills to pick up pennys. Believe me or not makes no difference to me. I don't see a ton of pieds for sale even now? Like I said Pete has some. So I have some Lessers big deal. So does Ralph. He has alot more lessers than me.. Just remeber this post and this fall when they aren't 2k you will see. This isn't about being right or wrong it seeing and identifying shifts in the market and adapting to them. That is the real deal

Joe at MKR
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rwoodyer May 07, 2006 06:44 PM

Yep, we've seen the same trend for recessive animals previously...they go way up in price like corn snakes...oh wait...

I mean albino burms...crap....ummmmm

Help I can't think of any precedence for recessive morphs to go up in price!!!!

But really, I hope you are right, I reall really hope you are right, but I don't think you are right. I think the trend of slowly decreasing prices will continue.

You didn't answer my question about your ability to hold back 2000 hatchlings, otherwise your 65% hold-back plan is only good for maybe 5 years, and then what?
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 06:51 PM

These aren't corn snakes that you can double clutch in a year or a burmeese python that lays 90 eggs. Your lucky if you get a female ball python to breed every other year and get 6 good eggs consistently on average. Ask any big breeder. That is why we need so many females. When it comes down to it ball pythons reproduce well butthey are limited so much more than all of the other snakes. I am out

Joe at MKR
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rwoodyer May 07, 2006 07:19 PM

Do you really only average 6 eggs?
How small are you breeding them 1200 grams?

Very few females around 2000 grams produce less than 7 and most produce 8 or more.

Besides, its all just numbers, anybody can get more snakes than you. Wouldn't you be pissed if you went to the store only to find out that they raised the price on DVD players. You'd probably go to a different store that could sell them at half the price...wouldn't you? If not I have some 6000 pied females I want to sell you.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 07:29 PM

breeding. Have you ever heard of a slug or being conservative? Actually it isn't conservative. If you have 100 clutches I bet you end up with 600 good eggs or so close to it that it doesn't make a difference. I know numbers becasue we hatch them. Call Ralph or another big breeder they will tell you. It is ok not to know but to carry on and belittle what I am saying with experience is ridiculous and it is not right. That is one of the problems on this forum. Have produced large numbers of ball pythons? If so tell me about your experiences? I am being cool but your giving advice on prices yet you have a problem an average egg count of any large producing facility. Yeah we have 10 egg clutches but then we have 6 egg clutches with 2 slugs sometimes. This is real life. Just becasue they lay eggs doesn't mean they are good. Whatever man.

Joe at MKR
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rwoodyer May 07, 2006 07:52 PM

First, I was just joking about clutch size take it easy.

Second...Aha, so you produced 600 eggs last year? So you are currently housing about 400 hatchlings (according to your 65% rule). So how are they all doing? You must have a huge rodent breeding facility to keep that many small rats around.

What are you going to do when they all reach breeding size?

Third, you're right I don't produce that many snakes, I am only expecting about 50 eggs this year (so far I only have 22 on the ground or hatched), I'll probably sell most of them ~90%. I'm not that experienced or knowledgeable (although I am averaging 8 eggs per clutch including slugs, 2 so far), but I am smart enough to understand free market economics, supply and demand etc...and will sell my animals accordingly.

I am just giving my honset opinion on the market and you are entitled to yours, I have said several times I hope your right etc...I don't think that is belittling.
People should be realistic in their expectations for the market, that way nobody will put themselves in a bad financial situation. You lecture on conservatism, but look at your predictions for the market...far from conservative.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 10:06 PM

We do have a huge rat facillity that produces well and still spend 25k a year on rats alone. I wish you the best man. I still want those 0.5 pieds for 10k that will never come to fruition. The reason is that you have to produce them to sell them and noone who works that hard to produce them in numbers is going to sell thier pieds for that little with everything that is going on right now unless they are complete idiots. I am glad you are doing well with your breeding and wish you the best. You can sit a throw prices around all you want but the people that sells the animals sets the price. Now I know you are going to say the market sets the price. Your under the assumption that everyone needs to sell most of there animals. We don't have to. Just a little of everything adds up to a real lot at the end of the year. No sucessfull big breeder does period. Good luck man buy as many of those 2k pieds you can as a matter of fact I will buy everyone you send my way.. Which none will come. Just like you gave me the 25k comment. That is more like it. You can't come up with 5 female pieds for 10k. Noon e will do it period. Here you are talking on the forum like you know where there is tons of them for that price give me a break please. It is stuff like this that freaks people out but not really. Most snakes are sold outside of kingsnake wether you believe it or not. But let me tell you something. There is alot of know it alls on here that don't know much or they read a quick book. They are really quick to give advice and just wait for the next post to jump on. Get a life! You people know who you are and it is a complete joke. Were sitting back and laughing. You know it is one thing to give advice when you have experience with things but to throw things out there when you are obviously just shooting from the hip is pretty ridiculous and embarrassing for the ball python community. And Roowdy that comment wasn't directed towards. The two know who they are as well as everybody else does..

Joe at MKR
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rwoodyer May 07, 2006 11:18 PM

dude, your preaching to the choir. I never said I would sell a pied for 2K, I said people have and are currently (mostly under the table transactions at reptile shows to get rid of some excess stuff, but don't pretend that it hasn't happened). I don't think this kind of business is good for the bp community, but it is a business, take it or leave it. As far as recessive prices going up, I just don't see that happening, pied prices dropped by about 50% over the past year and half and that was while everybody was still holding everything back. I agree they are going to make some awesome combos this year, but that is only going to go so far. I guess in the end we'll see who is closer, 5k pieds or 2k pieds...

get back to me in August....
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

morphkingreptile May 08, 2006 12:47 AM

Good luck man..
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rwoodyer May 08, 2006 02:27 PM

Yeah, I just saw some pieds with a posted price of 3000-3500. That was the posted price, so I am sure they will sell for 2500-3000...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

morphkingreptile May 08, 2006 01:04 AM

But this year I should come close to 75 or more with power clutches mostly. You will average 6 eggs per clutch usually when it all shakes down.

Joe at MKR
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snakebstr May 09, 2006 07:45 AM

Most of the people on here would just love to see the ball python market crash. I think its what they live for "to down the ball market", I totally agree with you on what you are saying. I was once told that someone is gonna produce 100's of Albino ball pythons per year, I said NO WAY that can happen, Do you relize how many 100% het or Albino females you would need to get 100's of eggs, A hell of a lot. These ball pythons like you said are NOT cornsnakes or Burmese pythons. You can't mass produce them, But some of the people on here will never see that. Just my 2 cent. See ya later. David

morphkingreptile May 09, 2006 10:48 AM

and the big slammers on here I am willing to bet have no collection or very small which is cool. I am sure they don't produce that much either. But they shouldn't act like they can predict the market and bash snakes when they obviously have no idea what they are saying. They know who they are as well as everyone else does. THis is what we are all saying about this forum. I just have had enough of this crap and had to say something and stand up for the market. People think that they can predict the market and set prices. Give me a break please. These people really need to get a life. Let me tell you something every big breeder is selling tons of snakes outside of kingsnake right now. That is where most of our business comes from. How many advertisements have you seen from us lately. Exactly..I love selling snakes on the classifieds but facts are facts. So this forum is very small in the scope of things. Good luck all and I will chime in from time to time.. We just got another clown to het clutch this morning. That is 30 clown to het eggs and climbing plus 8 clown to clown eggs already on the ground. THe season has just begun.. That is what this forum for. We need to celebrate the ball python, no pick them apart

Joe at MKR

Joe at MKR
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joshhutto May 09, 2006 09:47 PM

amen brotha. A year ago I was very skeptical of the ball market. I was still putting money into it but skeptical none the less. I then began talking to a couple large breeders and they set me straight. A comment made by one of them still gets me all excited, it was "These snakes are the best snakes you can have if you love high contrast yellows and blacks and unlimited pattern mutations and if you can't gross 100k a year you are doing something terribly wrong." Now that 100k a year was on an established collection of high quality animals which I have been working very hard to acquire. The bloodlines I'm working with have come from some of the best in country and plan on picking up some more. I regret saying I haven't had the pleasure to deal with MKR but I will very soon, well as long as the market doesn't crash that is, jk, lol.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

cole2006 May 09, 2006 11:26 PM

David and Joe, excellent posts.

It is nice to see "big breeders" post on here every now and then. Yeah, the subject has been played out (a long time ago!), people need to hear it every now and then.

(Anyone still wondering why big breeders don't usually waste there time with these threads?)

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 07:05 PM

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morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 06:05 PM

Talk to other breeders that have alot of both types not just a few and ask them. I bet they will say the same thing I am saying. You will see over time that if you don't want your projects to drop or very little and they can even go up in value which you will all see this summer than simple recessives is the ticket. The down side is that you have to buy big projects. You need homozygous males, homo females and het femaels to do it right and it costs alot of money. So people do produce simple recessives but not too many produce big numbers. They produce very small amounts usually under 5 if they are lucky. We should produce at least 25 homozygous Clowns or more this year. at least 25 or more homoygous Caramel albinos and so on. Our projects are huge to produce those numbers. That is why simple recessives are the ticket. I could have 1 male pastel breed 7 females and get 25 pastels. That is the difference. Now we will be breeding homo to homo as we have this year but will big time next year produce alot. Doesn't mean they are going down in value. We won't release them. This is all about the collection. Yeah it is big business and we make alot of money but we do it because we love the snakes. I am sure everyone would just assume keep everything that they produced if they could..

Joe at MKR
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RandyRemington May 07, 2006 06:16 PM

So how many male and how many female homozygous piebalds are you targeting to keep?

Will you keep more male piebalds than you plan to use for breeding and if so why?

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 06:23 PM

simple recessive and we should be there this year in every project we have except for the citrus ghost and orange ghost in simple recesives. I have 10 caramel albino females that will be breeding next year as well as 7 clown females and 7 genetic stripe females breeding next year as well. We have tons of female hets also Plus we have over 25 lesser females and over 30 female mojaves most of which will be breeding next year. I want 35 of each of those in females. Plus I am not releasing a lucy male untill I have 10 of them. I 3 breeding everything now and should have my 10 after next season for sure. I know you are a genetics guy. We just got our first clutch of lesser/mojave lucy to normal. 7 eggs with about 15 more clutches to go from them so we should iron it out this year if we can.. What the hell do I know.. Hope I helped.

Joe at MKR
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RandyRemington May 07, 2006 06:37 PM

Very helpful, thanks!

I've worried a bit about not seeing more homozygous pied females being bred but if you are keeping 15 you must believe they can make good breeders.

Also, those 16 clutches from lesser mojave leucy should definitely provide some basic answers as to if there is a link between the two morphs. Are they all with normal girls? I'm betting a 50/50 split of lesser and mojave with no normals and no leucy showing the two to be at least closely linked genes and likely different versions of the same gene. But with a sample that size if they are only linked you might see a crossover producing a very few leucys or normals to narrow down between the linked genes and the allele theory (or of course I could be completely wrong and you might get 1/4 leucy and 1/4 normal).

It will also be interesting if to see if you can always be certain which babies are lessers and which are mojave. Even assuming they are distinctly different mutations there may be some overlap between the darkest lesser and the lightest mojave. Unfortunate messiness to an important educational project like this.

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 06:48 PM

We have had very few homozygous pied females go. We produce them with hets but we just think they take longer to breed. Maye some go early but with our studies they take longer period. I have 8 pied femaels will have my 15 this year of which 5 can breed right now and only 1 is going this year. We have tons of pied het females go all the time and that is how mwe make 95% of our pieds to date. Wes is an unbeievable breeder and I am sure we aren't the only one. Now Ralph ahs some success with his females and most of my pied stock came from him. The other side is pieds are beautiful and we now know what they can do for other morphs. They are going up just for that reason alone..

Joe at MKR
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morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 10:26 PM

You are more excited about it than I am... No just kidding. I think we are going to get a white snake from breeding the lucy cross to a normal. The reason being is that you can get a bumble beee breeding a bumble bee to a normal. I don't know it is all theories especially with these codoms. Call me anytime Randy to talk. 315-374-6607 later man

Joe at MKR
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RandyRemington May 08, 2006 12:11 AM

I do love data to put theories to the test.

Bumblebee X normal being able to produce some Bumblebee (should be 25% chance each egg) as well as the existence of killer bee prove that spider and pastel are different mutations of DIFFERENT genes.

However I'm thinking that at least some of the white snake genes will be different mutations of the SAME gene. This multiple mutant allele situation is fairly new to snakes (striped and motley in corn snakes is the best example so far). I thought that perhaps cinnamon pastel and pastel jungle would be alleles after seeing the pewter but I was proved wrong on that last summer with the silver bullet and the like. RDR's published Lesser Phantom clutches last year where consistent with the theory that those two mutations could be alleles but we need a bigger sample size to prove it wasn't just luck that no normals where produced.

Basically the difference between a situation where two mutations turn out to be different mutant versions of the same gene and one where they are different gene locations all together is that each snake should only have at most two copies of the same gene - one from each parent. If lesser and mojave are different versions of the same gene then your lesser X mojave produced leucistics got one copy of that gene from the lesser parent and the other from the mojave parent and don't have any room for a normal copy (since they can't have three copies of the same gene). In this theory the lesser mojave leucistic doesn't have a normal version of the common white snake gene since it already has it's two copies filed with one lesser version and one mojave version. When that cross leucistic is bred it will have a 50/50 chance of giving either the lesser or the mojave version to each offspring but it can't give a normal since it doesn't have one and it can give only one and not both because that is how sexual reproduction works with higher animals (or maybe everything, I don't know). Basically it picks half of it's genes to give to each offspring and unless something goes wrong no offspring should get two copies of the same gene from one parent. Half the babies get the mojave version of that gene pair and the other half (on average) get the lesser version.

Going back to the bumblebee example spider and pastel are separate genes so each is paired with the normal version of it's respective gene in the bumblebee. So when the bumblebee breeds we are interested in two different pairs of genes. At the spider locus it either gives the spider mutant version of the normal for spider version. At the separate pastel locus it either gives the pastel mutant version of the normal for pastel version. Remember that there are many different “normal” genes so the normal for spider gene and the normal for pastel gene are at completely different locations and should be kept separate. Just looking at those two locations (spider and pastel) there are 4 total versions for the bumblebee (basically a double het spider and pastel) to pick from and it should (as long as they don't happen to be close together on the same chromosome) randomly pick one from each pair resulting in 4 different combinations that are each equally likely:

spider pastel
spider normal for pastel
normal for spider pastel
normal for spider normal for pastel

With the allele theory in the lesser mojave leucistic we would only be looking at one gene location so only 2 different versions and only two equally likely contributions to pass to the offspring:

lesser
Mojave

It is also notworthy that with the allele theory of white snakes you couldn’t have a lesser leucistic (i.e. homozygous lesser) that was also het for phantom or Mojave. This is going back to the only two versions of the same gene rule (one from each parent). If both versions of the common white snake gene where occupied by lesser versions there would not be room for any other versions of that gene (normal for white snake, phantom, Mojave, Vin Russo or whatever other versions there may end up being - perhaps butter or even dilute to make platy might be more alleles in this group).

There is a third scenario where lesser and Mojave might be different versions of different genes that just happen to be linked by being close together on the same chromosome. This is what really gets fun and might take a long time to figure out from the allele theory, especially if the loci are very close together. If they are different gene locations that just happen to normally get inherited with the normal version of the other because they are close together on the same chromosome you might eventually produce a leucistic (or a normal) from lesser mojave leucistic X normal if the right crossover happens between the two copies of the common chromosome to make a version of the chromosomes with both mutations side by side. That leucistic would then produce about 50% leucistics and 50% normals when bred to normals until another crossover happened to split the lesser and mojave mutations back apart in some later generation.

morphkingreptile May 08, 2006 12:48 AM


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RandyRemington May 07, 2006 06:10 PM

I've been trying to figure out what we can learn by the counter market tendencies of ghost pricing (i.e. ghosts are unusual in that they have actually gone up in price significantly for several years now).

Certainly the demand for ghost combos is there.

Hard to know what might or might not have happened to possibly slow ghost production in some of the early large ghost collections.

But I'm thinking an important consideration when comparing the price trends of ghost and pied (both recessive, both been around a while) is to consider the initial prices of each.

An important economic principal is that high prices spur production. I see oil wells going in everywhere I go now days (of course this can only help so far with a non renewable resource). The moderating prices and huge array of choices in morph ball pythons is a testament to how well this principal works. Ball pythons aren't that prolific but the high prices of the last decade have shifted a huge amount of industry focus to proliferating them and I believe the prices will still be high enough to continue this trend for a while. High ball python morph prices have been the fuel to get the huge amount of work necessary to produce enough ball python morphs to go around at lower prices.

But when you look inside the ball python market and compare pied to ghost on the one hand you have a stunning visual morph that was fully appreciated and fully priced from the start (what where pieds, $25K a pair the first year or two, or was that up to $25K each?). With ghosts, you had something that was hard to tell from normal in early internet pictures. Ghosts where under appreciated and under priced. I believe that the high initial prices of pieds lead to resource optimization that set the early ground work for proliferating that morph at a much faster rate than ghosts. I know I'm not the only one that bred possible het pied males to multiple females to try to get a project going as early as possible. Did anyone bother breeding even a small percentage of the possible het ghost males or even known het ghost males to normal females? I suspect that larger numbers of early produced het and possible het pied females are a significant difference in the pricing trend for pied over ghost. Pieds prices might be a victim of their own early appeal due to having an easy to appreciate appearance and high initial pricing while ghosts where a sleeper project that didn't get as much early base work.

-RoYaLpYtHoN- May 07, 2006 03:30 PM

Simple recessives are harder to produce. Just because the co-doms and doms are going down in price does not mean that the simple recessives are the same. Ghost went down in value years ago but went back up and still maintain their value because they are a valuable component to combination morphs. One of the biggest mistakes anyone can make about investments or the market is to assume. If Pieds prove to be an amazing combo morph for example then you will wish you had been more invested in that morph. That also of course applies to any morph. The truth is that there are alot of variables to consider when trying to “guess the market”. I personally believe that the simple recessives rule the market for the long haul. Their consistent prices prove this to be true. The het market is also another important factor with these wise investment morphs.
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James

morphkingreptile May 07, 2006 03:34 PM

Also,
Codoms are awsome and a fast way to make some great stuff. They just aren't 25k now and more people can throw there hat in the ring..

Joe at MKR
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John Q May 07, 2006 05:55 PM

.

gabonica2977 May 07, 2006 07:42 PM

my opinion on pieds anyway. I know no snake enthusiast that doesnt want a pied bp. until everyone who wants a pied has one the price will be big time. and everyone wants one!!!!!!!!!

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