Reptile & Amphibian Forums

They have an unmatched beauty that does not need to be improved...Mike

Chris' Colubrids

But to the point.

I do understand why some USE thayeri for their hybrid projects though.

The variability of the subspecies has no comparison. It cannot be duplicated in any other way. But it is reason enough for some of us to maintain the purity of the breeding lines we have.

I for one am commited to keeping all of the thayeri lines I have PURE

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Noone knows if they have pure thayeri (unless they were "caught" in that area where they cannot possibly intergrade with other kingsnakes).

There was a day and time (not too long ago) when it was believed all the mexicana complex snakes were the same snake...

combine that with the cool co-dom nature of the "variable" trait and the fact that no phenotypes seem to exist for "pure" thayeri and voila! ( I used to think it was iris color, but apparently not)

Just tossing that out.

Chris

I agree that it almost impossible to know if your thayeri is pure just by it's looks, but I think you're off track on some other facts. In your post below you say that you believe that thayeri and ruthveni intergrade in the wild. Not only is there no evidence of thayeri/ruthveni crosses, but they are of different species so the cross would be a hybrid, not an intergrade. Gartstka (1982) eliminated all subspecies of mexicana, because he felt that there was considerable intergradation among greeri, thayeri, and mex-mex. Hobbyists have never really accepted the elimination of these sub-species and now we hear they may be re-instated or may even each become full species. Garstka also removed alterna from the mexicana species. There are a few people on this forum who have done field work in Mexico and are very familiar with past and current research on mexicana in the wild. There are also breeders that have been working with lines of mexicana since the wild collecting days. They have impeccable reputations, and have no reason to cross their lines with other animals. Many of the snakes you see on this forum are from these lines that have been kept pure for over 20 years. As for pure phenotypes, have you seen the Gartska paper? You can ID thayeri by pattern, color, scale counts, hemipenes characteristics, vertabrae, etc.. Yes, you made need a DNA test to see if your thayeri is 100% pure, but you would need the same for a German Shepard. If you buy from a breeder that cares, and can trace the lineage of their snakes, you have a good chance of getting a pure snake.

"Noone knows if they have pure thayeri (unless they were "caught" in that area where they cannot possibly intergrade with other kingsnakes)."

If you buy your animals from a breeder who can trace his animals back to wild collected specimens, I would say your chances of knowing they are the real thing are fairly good. However, by your definition of pure, I suppose that a pure kingsnake of any species/subspecies anywhere is rare or non-existent considering overlapping ranges and cross breeding possibilities. If you acquire animals from a line that has been purposely crossed back up the line, you are guaranteed something man-made.

Is there, by your definition, a pure kingsnake of any type in existence? How drastically is it that other kingsnake species/subspecies overlap in range with thayeri? I read in the hybrid forum where one opinion was that thayeri are basically mutts produced by all the different species/subspecies that surround them, just one big mix of intergrades in the middle of a circle of snakes. If that were true, would there really be distinctly different species surrounding them to produce this? Greeri as we know them breed true with no significant thayeri-like variability, Mexicana also breed true to their form as we know and understand it, l. ruthveni does the same along with l. t. arcifera, l. alterna, etc….. I wonder why there are distinctly different animals to be found. There may be very discrete influences at points around the perimeter, from what I understand we are still attempting to discover exactly what this is. Difficult because of how rugged most of the terrain is and how difficult the snakes are to find. But generally speaking, all but thayeri are stable phenotype, distinctly different and breed true to that.

"There was a day and time (not too long ago) when it was believed all the mexicana complex snakes were the same snake..."

There was a day and a time, not really all that long ago, when it was believed that the world was flat. Recent studies as far back as 1982 when Garstka’s paper was published, and as recent as the Bryson webbi paper clearly show very distinct differences. We have to accept that, it is accepted and published current science.

"combine that with the cool co-dom nature of the "variable" trait and the fact that no phenotypes seem to exist for "pure" thayeri and voila! ( I used to think it was iris color, but apparently not)"

Well there we have it. Thayeri phenotype is….. Variable. Like no other. From many types of leonis patterns and colors to milksnake phase. The very first groups collected produced these traits, as well as all others until they were no longer able to be legally collected. No other kingsnake has done this. That’s pretty darn conclusive to me until more detailed studies are documented.

It just sounds to me from reading your posts that you are possibly attempting to justify producing hybrids which you enjoy, to those of us who don’t appreciate it happening with the mexicana species for good reason. You most likely won’t get a lot of positive attention. Maybe you are simply attempting to start fires.

Mike

Bravo!

Adam
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1.2 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA (1.0 ALBINO/ 0.2 HYPO)
1.1 CORNS SNAKES (0.1 SNOW/ 1.0 STRIPEDSUNGLOW)
0.1 REDFOOT TORTOISE
1.0 LEOPARD TORTOISE
0.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 HORNED FROG
0.0.1 TADPOLES

even Chris helped to illustrate some problem with Hybrids (the other Chris). It is unnecessary to hybridize Thayeri, they are full of possibility in pure Thayeri form; that’s what is so great about Thayeri! The variation and possibility is endless, why wreck it? To what gain? Every time someone in the reptile hobby does something stupid, we all pay. A few idiots let their pythons go and we all pay, someone’s baby cobra escapes and we all pay, people hybridize and biologists have more bullets to make us all pay. Why, because if a few are irresponsible, then we all must be. People are already starting to be gun shy about Thayeri because there is uncertainty about the purity. You wouldn’t want to produce mutts if you bred pure show dogs either.
Do your best to keep them pure.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

I second that Mike.......
Great point of view!!!!
I DO believe what we are working with are pure and if others do not agree they do not have to get any from us........LOL

I also think the reason we see more colorful thayeri in captivity is due to the fact of selective 'line' breeding rather than natural selection....We take the best looking ones (keepers) and keep breeding them and you know what?.....They just keep getting nicer.....IMHO!!!
John Lassiter

>>I DO believe what we are working with are pure and if others do not agree they do not have to get any from us........LOL

I think so too and have shied away when I had doubts.

>>I also think the reason we see more colorful thayeri in captivity is due to the fact of selective 'line' breeding rather than natural selection....We take the best looking ones (keepers) and keep breeding them and you know what?.....They just keep getting nicer.....IMHO!!!
>>John Lassiter

As with any livestock, as soon as it is taken into domestication, most natural selection forces go away and are replaced by our fancy (human selection). It's what we do, and what we have been doing for a long, long time. And likewise, people have prided themselves on the purity of their livestock for a long, long time. Dogs (wolves), goats, cattle, cats, Siskins (Canaries), pigeons, etc., etc, etc… and now Thayeri; an artists living canvas

The snakes are art, my photos are not...LOL

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

I know there are a bunch on this forum who really like the "retro" thayeri and I do too. But your right Rick, the bright reds, yellows, and oranges are what some of us strive to reproduce. And theres nothing wrong with likeing those or the retros. It would be nice though if those who wish to hybridize would label them that way so that we can keep the mexicana lines as pure as possible.

BTW Rick those MSP you posted are really nice. Your photography skills are getting better too.
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

...these are snakes, man.

Chill out.

No offense intended.

Chris

Did it again.....

sorry

Chris

Or are you stirring the pot!!!!!!

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

The camera is though. I still suck at getting the kind of pictures you guys do.

What is so great about Thayeri, is that the varibility leaves room for all tastes.

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

"Is there, by your definition, a pure king snake of any type in existence?"

Well the topic is about a sub-species and by definition subspecifics are not reproductively isolated. Some may not like the implication but to me it’s a bit too obvious to rationally ignore.

The biggest issue to me with thayeri is all the line bred types. Some lines aren’t even variable anymore. Don’t get me wrong I LOVE some of these produced by the Bodners and Tim Gebhard (even have a few) but I can’t help but feel that something has been lost. I for one am glad to see a growing appreciation for the more classic wild types.

...these are snakes, man.

Chill out.

No offensse intended.

Chris

That's pretty much the type of response I expected. Name calling isn't necessary and rather immature. Maybe I'm wrong again and you really are that cool.

Tell me this... If you didn't intend to offend anyone in here, why did you bring it? You told us all that you have been lurking, as you put it, and not posting for a long time, obviously you knew all too well that the issue would offend many. If you didn't intend to raise any short hairs in here, what was your reason for bringing up the hybrid issue with one of your first few posts...in addition to your thoughts on how you feel there may be no such thing as pure thayeri in the captive population?

The way you present yourself alone tells me you came here to cause trouble and stir the place up. If I'm wrong again, give me your explanation.

Mike

...since you asked for an explanation (?).

1. I thought ruthvens and thayeri DID interbreed in the wild - guilty for being incorrect.
2. "Lurking" meant reading and not posting, not some sinister other connotation - some dude twisting his moustache "ehhhheee...I think I'll make everyone MAD on the Internet by trying to make someone feel better about his hybrid kingsnake..."
3. Having a chip on your shoulder because someone breeds hybrid kingsnakes is just silly.

C'mon. I am truly sorry if I upset you but gimme a break.
You guys are better than the anti-venomoiders on that "other" forum aren't you?

Nuff said.

You all have nice looking snakes. As for MY personal take on it I would hope you aren't all line breeding your thayeri to breed the variability out of them because if you aren't careful that'll be the end result.

Chris

PS...YES, that laticinctus still has his "gear"...Enjoy!

No one has a chip on their shoulder Chris, we just care about our animals of interest just as you care about your venomoids like that Copperhead not being mutilated. That, I have a tremendous amount of respect for and venomoid mutilation is something that gets me a lot more fired up than the previous discussion.

Peace.

Mike