Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've always been fascinated with snakes. As of now I've only worked with pythons and boas. I'm thinking I may want to get into 'hot' snakes. Due to their mild venom I was thinking a copperhead may be a good choice. However, before attempting this I've heard that starting with an aggressive nonvenomous species, which is similar to the venomous species, is great. I'm planning on treating this snake as if it were 'hot' and keeping a detailed log of the handling process (feeding, cleaning, etc). This would give me a great chance to safely practice 'hot' techniques without the risk of serious injury.

So, to get to the actual question, does anyone know what a good "training" snake would be for a copperhead? I was thinking Asian Rat snake. Thanks for your time.

The asian rats can be nasty, but can also be as nice as corns. They are also rather quick, and long.

To better mimic a copperhead, I'd like to suggest a wild-caught water snake. I've heard many are quite nasty, esp. when wild caught. Also, being wild caught, you'll have to take fecal samples, deworm and perhaps other miscellaneous treatments that may help learn what'll be necessary with your copperhead.

Before I wish you luck, I just wanted to add that I usually don't recommend wild-caught animals, but only accomplished snake keepers should be getting into hots, and thus you should be able to care for a wild-caught with little problem. Also be sure to know what species/populations are threatened in your area and avoid taking from them.

Good luck and have fun

Ian

First, it is important to note that there are no such things as "beginner" hots; only "hots" that would be suitable for folks working with them for the first time. This means that you should have years of experience working with harmless species, experience mentoring under someone who is experienced with venomous species, and, that you have the resources, knowledge and maturity to do so (I will assume you do). I am also assuming that you are not a minor...if so, everything that follows does not apply to you.

A copperhead does make a nice captive but just realize this, you can die from the bite of a copperhead or any small venomous species (even with treatment); yes, its rare but it can happen. Also realize this, a bite from a copperhead, though rarely fatal, will leave you with excruciating pain and severe necrosis (this means that there is a good likelihood that you cold lose a few digits or a limb). Just make sure you give this decision some very serious thought.

Ian made some nice suggestions on species of harmless snakes that will double nicely as "venomous", however, just realize that no matter what precautions you take with non venomous species, its a whole different ballgame once you start working with the real deal....just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. I would personally treat EVERY snake in your collection as if it were venomous if you are serious about it; this way, there's no chance of experiencing a "brain cramp" and let your guard down.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>I've always been fascinated with snakes. As of now I've only worked with pythons and boas. I'm thinking I may want to get into 'hot' snakes. Due to their mild venom I was thinking a copperhead may be a good choice. However, before attempting this I've heard that starting with an aggressive nonvenomous species, which is similar to the venomous species, is great. I'm planning on treating this snake as if it were 'hot' and keeping a detailed log of the handling process (feeding, cleaning, etc). This would give me a great chance to safely practice 'hot' techniques without the risk of serious injury.
>>
>>So, to get to the actual question, does anyone know what a good "training" snake would be for a copperhead? I was thinking Asian Rat snake. Thanks for your time.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I understand the seriousness of venomous species, and I'm not a minor. I'm 22 and I just graduated from Penn State University with a degree in Microbiology. I'm not planning on getting a venomous snake within the next 5 years. I want to raise a difficult nonvenomous species for a LONG time to get used to the techniques.

Being a microbiologist, I'm very comfortable with many of the diagnostic procedures (I work with my local vet doing many tests). However, is there a good veterinary care manual for snakes? With common procedures, treatments? I'm assuming typical vets would be hesitant to treat a venomous species.

that's good to hear. You will be hard pressed to find any vet who will be willing to treat venomous herps (particularly a private individual). Instead, you'll need to rely on private individuals who can walk you through certain procedures unless there is someone nearby who can show you the ropes. Good luck, Rob

>>I understand the seriousness of venomous species, and I'm not a minor. I'm 22 and I just graduated from Penn State University with a degree in Microbiology. I'm not planning on getting a venomous snake within the next 5 years. I want to raise a difficult nonvenomous species for a LONG time to get used to the techniques.
>>
>>Being a microbiologist, I'm very comfortable with many of the diagnostic procedures (I work with my local vet doing many tests). However, is there a good veterinary care manual for snakes? With common procedures, treatments? I'm assuming typical vets would be hesitant to treat a venomous species.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Madar has his new reptile medicine book out...by far the best!! But has a heavy price tag...$100-$150 US.

Here is a link........

www.us.elsevierhealth.com/product.jsp?isbn=9780721693279

I think the cheapest I have seen it for is $119.00...so hunt around a little....There is also a 1st edition that sells for $50-100 so you can check that out too.....

Good luck and keep us posted!!!

Chris
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Chris Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps

Skip the first edition... it was a great book, but is not outdated (8yrs old I think). THe new mader from late last year is pnenomonal!

I would discuss your plans with your herp vet. If they have 5 years to learn with you, then they may take the plunge with you. You'll need antivenom in stock.. enough for you the restrainer, and the vet.

Learn restraint, tubing, ect on your non-ven... and practice with your vet.

Finding a herp vet is hard enough, a hot vet is near impossible. It doesn't decrease the responsibility involved however.

Have fun

Ian

I wasn't aware that there had been any copperhead fatalities in the last 30 years or so.
Got data on that? I need it for my talk at the IHS.
Thanks,
Randal

Randal, there was one last year, but I think anaphylaxis was the determined culprit. Don't know if that helps your lecture or not.

I've failed the forum ... I didn't catch the C-head fatality in 2005 if it was reported in the press. If anyone has a copy of it ... printed or electronic, I'd appreciate a copy.
The following are (excerpts of) 2005 items that combine 'copperhead' and 'fatality'. Is it worth going back further?
Respects
Wes
= = = = =
FLY ANGLERS ONLINE (Poulsbo, Washington) 31 January 05 Serpentine Encounters (Roger Stouff)
Perhaps its some ancestral, primitive thing that resides somewhere in the brain stem, where the "lower" functions of our nervous system operate, but I hate snakes.
Personally, I think I have good reason. Some of them will kill you, for starters. That's a good reason to hate snakes. I don't think that I'm very bothered by the whole Adam and Eve and the snake story, or the Chitimacha tradition that Bayou Teche was created by a giant snake that took many warriors to kill. No, like Indiana Jones, I think I just hate snakes because they give me the heebie-jeebies.
I don't kill animals indiscriminately. When I was ten years old I got my first real pellet gun, a pump Benjamin that was my grandfather's. I still have that air rifle, and it's the straightest shooting weapon I have ever fired, bar none. Upon receiving it, I promptly went into the back yard and killed a bright red cardinal. Stupid, stupid, stupid but it had to be done to realize the waves of grief and shame that overcame me. I stood there with my dad, who stayed silent but grim, and decided right then that I would never shoot another thing. For this reason, I have never been a hunter.
So much as I hate snakes, I don't kill them just on general principle. I remember killing three snakes in my life. Two were water moccasins, and all were behaving badly. The water moccasin is a viper that has a terribly aggressive disposition. They do not need to be provoked, they go looking for trouble. They're the snake world's Leroy Brown. When I was a lad, my father and I got run out of Cotton Canal (so named because of the abundance of cottonmouth snakes) after several water moccasins decided they wanted the fish we had in the boat. Dad killed two with his paddle, but they started coming at the boat from all directions. We fled under power, the outboard tapping and at times bashing logs as we went. Dad never ran the outboard in Cotton Canal, but a hasty retreat was in order. Over the years, I have killed water moccasins who tried similar raids on my creel, and once shot a copperhead that killed my beloved springer spaniel Shadow.
…
http://flyanglersonline.com/features/nativewaters/

BAXTER BULLETIN (Arkansas) 20 August 05 Copperhead event being studied in Marion County (Ann Worster)
Yellville: The sun has set on a mid-August day, the air still and heavy with humidity as dusk ushers in the darkness of night. Dozens of venomous snakes converge at the base of an aged cedar tree in a remote, mountainous region of Marion County. It is only the beginning ...
What could be an excerpt from a novel — "Night of the Snakes" or "Mystery of the Copperheads" — is, in fact, a reality taking place each night near Chuck Miller's cabin.
Why the copperheads have returned night after night for more than a month to the same tree remains a mystery, but one that Miller, graduate student Bobby Neal and Dr. Stan Trauth — a herpetologist at the Arkansas State University in Jonesboro and co-author of "Amphibians and Reptiles of Arkansas" — hope to solve.
…
Copperheads are not aggressive snakes and are known more for their docility. They rarely strike unless stepped on or handled. Miller said all of his dogs have been bitten — with Repo receiving about 15 bites this year — as they help "ferret out the snakes." A copperhead's bite causes local swelling and illness, but according to Trauth, a bite normally will not kill a person.
"Less than .10 of 1 percent of copperhead bites are fatal," he said.
…
http://www.baxterbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050820/NEWS01/508200313/1002

I think it was in Alabama or Mississippi last year. Guy was swimming and got bitten by a snake while swimming and said it was a copperhead. If I remember correctly no one credible ID'd the snake. I even think the bite symptoms were more cottonmouth than copperhead in nature...

Then again I could be way off and imagining this, but as far as I remember this sounds like it.

Yes, I remember reading the news report. (sorry wes) The fatality was attributed to anaphalxis not the severity of the bite.

I'll try and find it.

Al
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Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

OPELIKA-AUBURN NEWS (Opelika, Alabama) 23 June 04 Local man dies from snake bite (Evan Casey)
A man bitten by a snake last week while swimming in the Saugahatchee Creek off of Highway 14 in Loachapoka died Sunday.
Trent Leprettre, 31, of the Little Texas community in Macon County, was taken to East Alabama Medical Center last Wednesday after receiving a bite to each hand by a copperhead snake.
Leprettre was leaving the creek with his 9-year-old daughter at the time of the incident.
"They were going back to the truck and he told her to go back down and get help," said Gail Spradlin, Leprettre's mother-in-law. "Someone called 911 and it didn't take long, about 20 to 30 minutes, to get to the hospital."
Although no one but Leprettre actually saw the snake, his brother Travis, said Trent, who once worked as a certified sterilization technician at EAMC, would have recognized the type of snake that bit him.
Leprettre's immediate symptoms were swelling in the throat and difficulty breathing and he later had to be revived after heart failure. Leprettre was given an anti-venom more than once, but his condition steadily worsened, Spradlin said.
Although most bites from copperhead snakes are not fatal, Leprettre was highly allergic to snake venom, Travis Leprettre said. Trent Leprettre went into anaphylactic shock which further complicated his symptoms and he was taken off life support Sunday morning.
Copperhead snakes are abundant throughout the area and the Southeast, and tend live in wooded areas. Summer is the most common time of the year for snakes to be out, and about three to four victims are treated for snake bites each year locally.
Snakes also tend to burrow in rock piles, brush piles and in old debris, such as in piles of car parts, said Roger Birkhead, of the Auburn University biological sciences department.
Birkhead said copperhead snakes usually grow no longer than four feet and can be distinguished by an hourglass marking on their backs. The usual statistics for snake bite victims are white males, 20 to 35 years old and are associated with trying to pick the snake up.
Birkhead said if someone sees any snake they should back up and walk away.
"Most people have the misconception that a snake will chase you," Birkhead said. "The best thing to do is leave it alone. They want out of the situation just as much as people do."
Other snakes common in the Lee County area are the timber rattle snake, cottonmouth and pygmy rattle snake, which are all venomous. If bitten, Birkhead recommends the victim stay calm and keep the wound below the heart to keep venom from spreading.
"The best option is to immediately go to the hospital," he said. "Usually there is no permanent damage and survival is very high."
http://www.oanow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=OAN/MGArticle/OAN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031776202651&path=!news!localnews

That's the one. I wonder if a job fixing pets qualified him to identify this type of copperhead...

the key word is "can" as I was quoted as saying:

you can die from the bite of a copperhead or any small venomous species (even with treatment

If I was too literal I apologize (actually, if I was literal, I would have said "you will die". There is no doubt that a bite in the wrong place can result in a fatality no matter what species of venomous herp you are talking about....rare, sure, but possible, you betcha but I don't need to tell you or others who have been around hots for a long time who already know that.

I piled through my data and couldn't find any documented cases of any species of copperhead causing a fatality in the past 25 years but our records are pretty sketchy once you go back past 30. There are also fatalities that occur that are suspicious in nature that could have been caused by a copperhead but lack the solid, scientific evidence. Its important to note the seriousness in keeping any venomous herp; not that I'm against it, but prospective keepers need to be fully aware that any bite is a life threatening situation....that was my primary point.

>>I wasn't aware that there had been any copperhead fatalities in the last 30 years or so.
>>Got data on that? I need it for my talk at the IHS.
>>Thanks,
>>Randal
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Have to call you on that Rob. There are many species of small ven snakes that cannot kill you no matter where you are bitten. For example; a hognose, a road guarder (Conophis?) or the vast majority of what used to be called Opistoglyphs. How about changing that to "seriously venomous(?)" LOL

I know, I'm picky....

My sister is a nurse in Atlanta. They had a woman there back in the late 80's who was bitten by a copperhead and developed gangrene. The prognosis was eventual death, but i cannot confirm it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yeah, I was going to qualify my response....can't say I've heard of any hoggies causing major problems other than a little swelling.

>>Have to call you on that Rob. There are many species of small ven snakes that cannot kill you no matter where you are bitten. For example; a hognose, a road guarder (Conophis?) or the vast majority of what used to be called Opistoglyphs. How about changing that to "seriously venomous(?)" LOL
>>
>>I know, I'm picky....
>>
>>My sister is a nurse in Atlanta. They had a woman there back in the late 80's who was bitten by a copperhead and developed gangrene. The prognosis was eventual death, but i cannot confirm it.
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I found the following web page which mentions (with references) one fatality in 1980 with a rather vague mention that the cause of death was some unknown "side effect" of envenomation. It also mentions a publication from 1908(!) recording 5 deaths, 3 of which may have had something to do with self-medicating via copious amounts of whiskey...

http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exdixtep.html

I too remember a case in the last few years of a death attributed to anaphylaxis from a copper bite...however, I can't seem to find it now, and I remember being somewhat skeptical of the identification at the time (it was not caught or killed, so it could have been a young cottonmouth, IMO).

It's nice to see a mature, intelligent, individual coming to this forum and asking the correct questions. It seems as though you have thought out your gameplan rather well, and are going about things in the right way. Can't tell you how many people have come in here asking for advice on a good first hot, thinking they were ready for that kind of responsibility when all they had done is keep a few corn snakes or maybe a ball python. No clue about husbandry, safety, etc. Keep it up and good luck to you!!