Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
When I was younger, my dad and I made a terrarium for some salamanders we caught. We had a ten gallon aquarium and an extra piece of plexi-glass. We glued the piece of plexi-glass vertically in the tank. Then we filled one side with water and the other side we put rocks, dirt, sphagnum moss, and a couple plants dug into the substrate. So we had a half water and half land kind of terrarium setup for salamanders. The thing was, the salamanders used the water and the land. Could you make this kind of terrarium for Poison Arrow Frogs? Will the Poison Arrow Frogs use the water to swim in? Can Poison Arrow Frogs even swim?
Thanks for all your help,
Drew

The simple answer is No. while darts can swim, somewhat, they can easily drown, especially if there is not an easy egress from the water. Most dart tanks that utilize a water feature keep the water very shallow, or use a small stream which is also shallow. This doesn't mean a deeper water feature can't be used, but you risk a drowned frog.

I have a deep section in my frog tank. I see them jump in frequently but then use the log I placed in there to get out. I'm sure I am risking a drowned frog but from what I've seen they can get out pretty easy. I've only owned them for 6 months though. I'm sure people with more experience can comment further.
Russ

Dart frogs can all swim efficiently enough to get out of deep water onto land, as long as there is an easy egress, such as a log to do it. They seldom dive into deep water deliberately, but when they do, they are usually escaping from something they think is threatening them, or fall in accidentally. This is generalizing. I combine dart frogs, (galactonotus)and small tropical fish in a paludarium set-up, 135 gallons of half terrarium/half aquarium, divided by glass part way up. This tank is nearly 6 years old and I haven't lost a frog to drowning yet. I've seen thumbnails like my imitators dive under water, and stay for an uncomfortable length of time (for me.) D. leucomelas are known to submerge in water for a long time, and mine like to play and hunt in a shallow stream.

The worry about waterways and darts comes from the species that tend to be territorial and fight, such as the tinctorius. From what I've read, but never experienced first hand, the females may hold another female under water and drown it in the wrestling match. However, this would have to be a relatively shallow water feature where the upper frog could get a purchase on the rocks or substrate to hold the other one under. If they both wrestle into a deep pool, the aggressor is going to have to let go to swim to the surface to breathe air and both will head for the nearest egress. While they can't swim long distances, they can sure scoot across a tank sized pool and get to shore before you can say "Jack Robinson." Occasionally, you may find a "fallen-in" heavy adult frog trying to climb the glass on the aquarium side instead of having headed for the land. You can either help it, or it will fall back in again and eventually figure out where to go for itself. If it's one of the lighter thumbnail glass climbers, there is no worry at all. They are athletes.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Everyone,
Thank you for your replies and information. I appreciate the help. I don't own any Poison Arrow Frogs yet, but maybe soon I will. Anyways, I think I have swayed toward not having a small body of water in my tank. If they did drown, I would feel so bad because I know it could have been prevented. Especially if two females faught and one drowned the other!
I have another question for you. What is the simplest terrarium to start with? I've heard so many things in the past and this is my favorite. In your opinions, is this a good beginner setup?
"Place the sphagnum into the bottom of the tank to the depth of about two inches. Pour enough water onto the moss so that it is moist but not soggy. Pack it down with your hand so you have a nice level area. You can then place pieces of cork bark in your tank so that your frogs have a place to hide and feel safe. Be sure to keep the sphagnum moist at all times, place a shallow water dish in your tank and try to keep it clean by simply wiping it out each day with a clean paper towel and refilling it with fresh water. Once a month clean your tank using the same steps above. Don't use soap in your tank, any hard to remove build up can be scraped off using a razor blade. 80-90% humidity is ideal. Use a screen lid with 3/4 of it covered with plastic. This will hold in the humidity. You can also place live moss over the sphagnum and add plants to your set-up, be sure though not to use anything that has been treated with pesticides or fertilizers."
(http://www.underthecanopyfarms.net/pages/2/index.htm)
Thanks,
Drew

That's O.K. for a temporary quarantine tank or a nursery, but for a permanent tank, you will want a drainage layer at least, if not a false bottom, because misting water will collect and needs draining off. You can use about 3" of coarse gravel, rock and perhaps activated charcoal. Some people use clay pellets. Cover this with some perforated weed cloth from a nursery and add the substrate on top of this. This will keep the fine soil particles from filtering down and clogging the drainage area. This will insure nothing gets too soggy and the soil drains well for the plants. When the water layer rises, you can drain off the excess easily by simply putting a length of airline tubing to the bottom from one corner, over the top and siphon it off into a jug on the floor. (Use the water to water house plants.) As far as the substrate, brown sphagnum is good, but you may also want something like Jungle mix (with no added fertilizers) organic composte, and a layer of oak leaf litter if you have that handy. Magnolia leaves are also good. Neither deteriorates rapidly, and the tannins are healthy for the frogs. Milled cocoanut fiber also works well, or you can mix any or all of the above. Cork bark is great to use, and doesn't deteriorate. Eventually, it may even grow moss and ferns from spores.

I don't think you really have to worry about drowning, but go with whatever makes you comfortable with your first frogs.

A lot of people like the Exo-Terra set-ups. I saw some at the Arizona Frog Day in Mesa, and they are quite nice little beginner set-ups, everything included. I think you can check them out at Black Jungle.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Hi,
Again, thanks for all your help. So to make a terrarium all you need to do is put 3" of gravel in the cage, cover the gravel with perforated weed cloth, cover the weed cloth with spagnum moss, and put plants and cork bark in there? Is that all there is to it? How do you grow/keep plants in there?
I think if I had water in there, they would be fine. A lot of times I tend to worry about really stupid things.
I've always liked the Exo Terra terrariums but thought they were just a little too small for a pair of Poison Arrow Frogs. I would rather make a terrarium with a 10 or 20 gallon aquarium.
Thanks,
Drew

Most tropical plants will grow just fine in sphagnum, but as I said above, I prefer to mix it with an organic soil mix of some sort. You will be misting every day, so the substrate will stay quite damp. The frog poop, dead flies, etc. will take care of any fertilizing they might need. Most vines and plants suitable for a vivarium are not heavy feeders. Any epiphytic bromeliads that are attached to your cork bark will get their nourishment from the detritus and frog droppings that accumulate in the axils. The cups or axils of these should also be kept full of water by the misting. (I'm referring to those that hold water, such as the Neoregalias and some Vresias.) You can just stick in cuttings of many of the tropicals, and they will root on their own. Pilea, Peperomia, Piper, Hedera sp.(most ivies), small vining Ficus, Fittonia, will all do well as cuttings. In my experience, Pothos gets too big for a permanent tank, as do most of the philodendrons. My house plant pothos has 10 foot vining sections all over the place. I do use bits of it for temporary nursery tanks where it is easly removed and replaced, and will even grow some and send out roots on wet paper towel bottoms, and ich or so of packed down shredded moss, or cocoanut fiber, depending upon what I use for this. In nursery tanks, I don't use the drainage layer, since it is temporary and the tanks are cleaned out and sanitized after each group of new froglets goes into a permanent tank after quarantine for a month or so.

To root cuttings, just take off a couple of the lower leaves and stuff the stem into the substrate, or in a nursery tank, just lay it down across the bottom. As long as you are misting, most cuttings will live and give the froglets or new frogs some shelter.

The Exo-terras I saw were at least 10 gallons. Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing. In any event a 10 to 20 is all right for just about any dart pair.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Hi,
Cool thanks for the info. I appreciate it. Sounds simple enough. I want to make a terrarium very soon. Start basic and end complex. I guess the Exo Terra ones are big enough. I just thought an aquarium would allow more room but whatever. Talk to ya soon. By the way, when breeding Poison Arrow Frogs, what special things do you have to do that you wouldn't normally do on a day to day basis. I read somewhere that all you have to do is put a film canister in the cage for the eggs to hatch. Is that all there is to it?
Thanks,
Drew

It depends entirely upon the specie you are keeping. The thumbnails and obligate egg layers will transport their hatched tadpoles to bromeliad axils or to film canisters set at an angle. Then the female will feed them with infertile eggs, while the male also attends and monitors the action. With some others, they may lay in cocohuts, on leaves, and some may even transport the hatched tads to a waterway of some sort, but after that, they are left on their own with no more parental care. In these cases, people remove the eggs and raise them separately, the method and subsequent feeding depending upon the species of dart they are breeding.

Inducing breeding also varies among the different species. Leucomelas, for instance, may respond to a relatively dry period followed by heavy misting. Keep your first frogs for awhile before you worry about deliberately breeding them. This will give you time to also read up. A nice relatively inexpensive coverage of most darts is W. Schmidt. F.W. Henkel's POISON FROGS--Professional Breeders Series, which you can order from almost any breeder over the internet. You will have better luck in the long run if you just take your time and enjoy the show at first.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Hi,
I want to buy them and breed them as soon as possible. I would end up owning D. azureus first. I have some more questions if you guys don't mind. Do they breed year round?Where do they lay their eggs? How do you raise the eggs seperately? How do you induce D. azureus to breed?
Thanks,
Drew

My azureus pair mate and lay eggs regularly. They'll lay 5 or 6 eggs on top of a leaf. In this case, they like the Calathea. I've never done anything to induce breeding. When you discover a clutch, leave it there for the next three days or so. The caring parent will keep them moist with fluid from its cloaca. This may contain a small amount of urine which prevents fungal infection. Then you can scoop the viable eggs (those that have a black center and are not pale or swollen) along with the jelly into a covered petri dish and mist this daily until they hatch. They should be just in contact with, but not covered with water. Remove any eggs that appear to swell and become pale. Be sure to keep the eggs the same side up when you move them. You may have to tease the mass into the petri dish very carefully with a plastic spoon. When the larvae are wriggling and about to hatch, begin to raise the water level in the Petri dish so the larvae can swim free when they hatch. After they swim free, you can scoop them up into separate rearing containers. The water should be fairly low in these at first, perhaps 2 cm. or so. After 4 days you can begin to feed them bits of flake food such as TetraMin, Spirulina and Chlorophytum, etc. You will also need to keep the water very clean with either frequent changes, or perhaps daily partial changes. Some people add a few drops of "oak leaf tea" which is made by steeping oak leaves in water brought to just the boiling point and then cooled. The tannins apparently help the water quality.
When they begin to sprout legs, you will need to provide an egress for them to land. Check around and read different care sheets, which may provide you with some better ideas for tadpole nurseries and other foods.

Of course your water source must be pure and free from chloramines and chlorine.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Hi,
Thanks for all the info. I found a whole bunch of articles on the computer that I am reading.
Thanks,
Drew