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I'm hoping someone of you can help me positively identify my friend's snake. It was sold to hin as a ribbon snake, but I'm nearly certain is't a garter. I'm thinking it's a Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis that, just, doesn't have very pronounced, red, markings. I'm thinking that because of the red on the upper labials. Thanks, if you can help.
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Oh-Oh my image didn't come through. Here's a direct link to the pic until I can figure out what went wrong.

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I think this will work now. Thanks, if anyone can help with Id.

garter
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...and I think to myself, "What a wonderful world."

Thanks, Shakey,

What do you think about sub-species?

It looks like a valley garter...thamnophis sirtalis fitchi... do you know where its from??

Thanks Ssssnakeluver, My friend's snake was bought at a petstore in Paso Robles California. That's in the south end of the Salinas valley about 45 miles inland from the coast. I suspect it's a local snake. I looked up some pics of T.s.fitchi and they do look similar. None of the snakes in the pics of fitchi have red on the labials though. It's possible that the snake is some kind of intergrade or hybrid I suppose. Like I said at the top, the snake was sold as a ribbon snake. Too bad when linage gets all confused like that. BTW I coppied some pages from a Petersons field Guide at the library and it doesn't list fitchi under sirtalis. Is that a new subspecies, and do you know the identifying characteristics?

the valley garters have varying amounts of red depending on where they are. In my book on garter snakes (the Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology by D Rossman) it shows to fitchi, one from Washington with red on the labials, and one from California with no red. I used to have a male that had his entire hed covered with red!
Not sure on why the Peterson's guide doesn't list it...I don't have that guide, just and Audobon one, and ancient one by Stebbins, and the book by Rossman. It has been listed as a subspecies for some time. I'm going to have to get a copy of Peterson's guide....

Here's a pic of my female valley garter from Idaho.

Thanks again, Ssssnakeluver, I'll have to do some more research on fitchi. I'm thinking we're on the right track though. I might even go down to the pet store and see if they might remember who they got the snake from. It'll give me an excuse to say Hi to the cute girls that work there!

I have one more question, if you'll indulge me. Is there a way of sexing these snakes by sub-caudel scale count?

BTW the Petersons guide at our local library is fairly old I think. With all the recent changes, and the fact that we're in prime snake country, I'll have to bug them to get a new one.

I agree that it may be a Valley Garter. That may explain why the pet store sold it as a Ribbon. It would be illegal to sell this subspecies in Calif. even if captive bred. Switch its diet to f/t mice and it will do a lot better. Goldfish are very marginal as far as nutrition and fish and amphibians can eventually overload a captive snake with internal parasites.
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Randy Hallman
Firehouse Herps

Thanks for the advice Rhallman, one of the reasons I'm helping my buddy to figure out his snake is that I figure that's the first step to working out husbandry issues. My friend has been wondering if he should be feeding more than just fish.

Well, by looking at my garter book by Rossman, the males tend to average a few more subcaudals than the females, but most of them are close in numbers. Under sirtalis, it says males average 62-97 and female 52-90. Pretty close. I wouldn't use that as a reliable method. Probing is the best method, but make sure it's done by someone with experience so you don't injure the snake.

Thanks Ssssnakeluver, The gender issue with this snake is mainly one of curiosity since it probably won't be bred. Personally, I am not experienced in probibing and would never risk hurting the snake. Unless there were a real need I don't think I'd even have it probed. The snake is so friendly and well adjusted, I'd hate to give it a bad experience.

BTW I showed my friend this thread, yesterday, and he says, thanks, to you folks, too, and will attempt to get his snake started on eating mice.