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ALL THAYERI ARE HYBRIDS!!!!!!

kingaz May 09, 2006 05:53 PM

Or you would think so if you read the hybrid forum. I decided to take a look over there and saw one post that basically said that thayeri are an alterna X mex-mex natural hybrid. There was another post that said they are an alterna X triangulum hybrid. Hats off to pikiemikie for replying to one of these posts, and trying to point out the ignorance. They also feel that the folks on the Mexicana forum are a bunch of purists, and aren't interested in seeing or discussing hybrids. Good, I guess.

Someone on the hybrid forum made the point that a cross between two different species of kingsnake is still a kingsnake and therefore should be OK to post on the kingsnake forum. That logic almost makes sense to me. But, this is the MEXICANA forum, and an alterna X mex mex hybrid or an alterna X triangulum hybrid is not a pure mexicana kingsnake, the latter mix isn't even part mexicana. I say it doesn't belong on the forum if it isnt pure mexicana. Hybrid fans have their own forum to put their crosses on. Now here's a question. What about a mex mex X greeri cross? or thayeri X greeri? That's still pure mexicana since the crosses are at the subspecific level. What do you Mexicana Forum regulars think about un-natural mexicana intergrades on the forum? I'm not into it. I'm happy that folks here are commited to keeping the lines as pure as possible. We cannot control what people post here, but we can point out ignorance, deception and faulty logic when we see it. Maybe one day the personality of this forum will change, but I kind of like it the way it is!

Cheers,
Greg

Replies (23)

serpentdan May 09, 2006 06:34 PM

HYBRIDS ARE THE "RAP MUSIC" OF HERPETOCULTURE. They're popular, but you're not sure why.
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Dan
www.SerpentsOnline.com

mexicanamak May 09, 2006 07:35 PM

lol! I get the point! However I actually kinda dig a lot of the Rap/Hip Hop as long as it isn't too vulgar, maybe I get that from spending time with my son a few years ago. But then, I am a little weird for a crusty old fella. Or maybe it's because it's so different.

I should get myself a nice amel ruthie.....

Mike

serpentdan May 10, 2006 08:05 AM

if I offended any rap music fans. When it comes to music, I have plenty of guilty pleasures too. ABBA anyone?
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Dan
www.SerpentsOnline.com

jlassiter May 10, 2006 08:37 AM

Dan....Are you "Diggin the Dancing Queen?".........LOL

What's wrong with ABBA anyway......HAHAHAHAHAHAH
John Lassiter

mexicanamak May 10, 2006 02:33 PM

Speaking for myself, you didn't offend me at all Dan. Rap/Hip Hop certainly isn't my music of choice by any means, but I can listen to and enjoy some of it. When it's my choice I'll listen to good 'ol ABBA-era rock and roll. More recently The Dave Matthews Band has been very high up on my favorites list from their first release.

Mike

Rick Millspaugh May 09, 2006 06:48 PM

Hi…my name is Rick… and I’m a purist.

I don’t get it, hybrids are likely to be blasted on any forum except the hybrid forum, what do they expect? I’m not loosing sleep over it or anything, I just don’t want any and it bothers me to see hybrids misrepresented to those of us who do not prefer them. Don’t bug me and I won’t bug you.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

mexicanamak May 09, 2006 07:18 PM

...amen.

Mike

vichris May 09, 2006 10:59 PM

Who the he# is Greg. Rick is that you????
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

kingaz May 09, 2006 11:41 PM

I'm *(&%^'n Greg. Everyone seemed to understand that the title of my original post was sarastic. It was meant to reflect what was being said on the hybrid forum. I'm just as much of a purist as you!

Greg

vichris May 09, 2006 11:54 PM

Believe me I know sarcasm. I just thought Mike K was posting to Rick M. I did forget your first name is Greg though LOL .

I knew you were a puritan too. LOL
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

crimsonking May 09, 2006 08:19 PM

Well... Like you, I have heard of some taxonomic reisions coming and it seems that it is a possibility that the mexicana/graybands are actually closer to the milksnakes, so I will reserve any judgement except to say that I really like what we know now as "pure" mex-mex, "pure" thayeri, and "pure" greeri....lol!
not to mention ruthveni and alterna....
haha!







:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

crimsonking May 09, 2006 08:21 PM

n/p
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

vichris May 09, 2006 08:42 PM

If that was the case why not just breed different mexaicana complex subspecies and make your own VARIABLE KINGSNAKES. These would obviously put out melanistic, milkphase phase, and leonis, in a rainbow of colors....... RIGHT.

Like I've stated before breeders like Professional Breeders have produced some truely awesome hybrids and I think that they are absolutely beautiful snakes. But they're being represented as hybrids and there is NO OTHER WAY other than with Lampropeltis Mexicana Thayeri bloodlines that those snakes could ever produced.

I'm absolutely committed to keeping my thayeri bloodlines PURE

.

(that's a period up there)

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

kingaz May 09, 2006 10:26 PM

I completely agree with you Chris. If thayeri were alterna X mex-mex hybrids or alterna X triangulum hybrids, you should be able to make a batch of thayeri from those ingredients. As we know, you can't.

Aaron May 10, 2006 01:11 AM

Not neccessarily. Hybridization or intergradation could have occured in the distant past and then thayeri could have become geographically isolated and become it's own thing.

Aaron May 10, 2006 01:19 AM

I am not saying that happened but I am saying if it did there has been thousands of years for the snakes to morph into what they are now and one generation of captive crossing could not duplicate that.

Aaron May 10, 2006 01:35 AM

As Donald Rumsfield said "there are knowns that we know we know and unknowns that we know we don't know and then there are unknowns that we don't know we don't know". Or something like that.

mexicanamak May 10, 2006 02:51 PM

...the big picture Aaron. Past, present and what the future might be. One of the more exciting things to think about is how these animals came to be what they are, what they once were, how they came to be what they are and what they will be in another stage of the process.

The one aspect of keeping these snakes I enjoy above and beyond anything else, is knowing that I am alive in a time when I can enjoy them for what we currently know them to be and will be for a very long time..... the Variable Kingsnake.

Mike

Aaron May 10, 2006 08:29 PM

Yes I agree.
If they are relicts of ancient hybridization that just makes what they are today even more interesting and IMO worthy of keeping pure.
As an interesting side point there was a thread on the alterna forum a while ago about a known population of rattlesnakes in west Texas that consists of Western Diamondbacks, Mojave Rattlesnakes and hybrids between the two. Apparently one of the pure forms was almost nonexistant in part of the population apparently being pushed out by the hybrids and the other pure form.

mexicanamak May 11, 2006 02:28 PM

Interesting Aaron... I sent you a contact request in reference to the Rattlesnake topic, interesting subject and I would like to talk more if you have time.

Mike

kingaz May 10, 2006 08:12 AM

All kingsnakes are derived from a common ancestor. Whether by plain old evolution forced by geographical isolation, intergradation, and natural hybridization we came to have the species and sub-species that exist today. Mitochondrial DNA testing is starting to tell us the facts. What I have heard from these other folks is not based on research, but on wild a$% speculation. I'll wait for the real research.

Aaron May 10, 2006 08:39 PM

You can search the archives of the Gray Band forum. There was a discussion a while ago about a population of rattlesnakes in west Texas south of Alpine that consists of Diamaondbacks, Mojaves and hybrids between the two. In part of the area one of the pure forms was almost nonexistant apparently having been pushed out by the hybrids and the other pure form. This is an unpublished study that is being conducted by a professional biologist. If that is happening today with rattlesnakes it could have happened to thayeri sometime in the past.
To me the most interesting forms are still as mexicanamak said, the forms that nature has brought us today that we can experience as living forms.

APLAXAR May 09, 2006 09:10 PM

Great Minds Think a Like........

i for one am glad that people here are doing their part to keep these wonderful snakes pure. and i am also glad that we have a place to come to talk about all this, and that there is a almost team atmosphere where we stand our ground, and have each others back, and say what we beleive to be right, and learn also.

Adam

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1.2 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA (1.0 ALBINO/ 0.2 HYPO)
1.3 Alterna
1.1 CORNS SNAKES (0.1 SNOW/ 1.0 STRIPEDSUNGLOW)
0.1 REDFOOT TORTOISE
1.0 LEOPARD TORTOISE
0.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 TADPOLES

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