Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...IF someone of high standing in the herp community were to say he hatched out an albino 100% pure thayeri...would you believe him?? Or...would you have
big reservations?
some reservations?
complete doubt??
Now switch the "someone of high standing" with an "unknown".
Any difference?
What about a known hybridizer? (is that a word?)

Myself, I would have considerable doubts given the amount of ruthveni and nelsoni blood out there...and I think it wouldn't matter WHO produced it.
Sad really, and I'd have to blame it on the hybrids. huh?
You??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

From an authority figure...

Well, that would depend upon exactly who we were talking about. Personally I know only a very few that I would trust initially... and even with them my reservation would be extreme. They would have to prove it every step of the way. If that group together were to verify the issue, I would tend to go along with it until someone possibly found an uncertainty in the lineage. There would have to be zero broken links in the chain for me to believe it.

From an unknown...

Complete doubt. We have no idea what unknowns do behind closed doors.

So I have to agree, it really wouldn't matter who produced it. For me the doubt would be nearly impossible to overcome. Definitely a sad situation.

Mike

Unfortunatly I'm right there with you Mike.

Heck if my snakes were to produce one I'd be scrambling to verify my bloodlines.

I agree very sad.
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

I hear ya with that one Chris. I'm not so sure that if it were to happen to me, that I wouldn't send the entire group off to one of the individuals that produced the parents and let them deal with it.

Mike

sending them anywhere. I'm not really sure what I'd do. I'm not even sure if I would be extemely pissed off or extemely happy.

BTW check your e-mail and Adams post on the general forum Mike.
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

chris did you see the pics of the two of four babies i got from mike alittle under the pics of the parents?

adam
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1.2 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA (1.0 ALBINO/ 0.2 HYPO)
1.3 ALTERNA
1.1 CORNS SNAKES (0.1 SNOW/ 1.0 STRIPEDSUNGLOW)
0.1 REDFOOT TORTOISE
1.0 LEOPARD TORTOISE
0.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 TADPOLES

I saw that last night before turning in. Adam is terrific. Great guy, and he has about the same excitement for his animals as I have for mine.

I guess I am a casual lurker over there, a lot to learn from that group but I just don't have time to participate. I barely have time to get involved here.

Mike

I think it would have to be a well documented, wild find, by a respected researcher. Like you say, there is too much amel ruthveni and nelsoni blood out there.I would be highly skeptical of almost any claim.

Greg

Good question Mark,
I would have serious doubts whether it be a notable (bigtime) breeder or an unknown hobbyist...........

I even have my doubts on the one that was supposedly produced in Austin, TX years back that was eaten by its potential mate.

And....If I ever produced one I would have doubts of the lineage of my breeders.......Right now, I think all of mine are pure......They have the correct scale counts, head shape, iris color, etc.

I have mentioned this before....I think the herper of the future will have small DNA kits to test each and every snake affordably.
With all this hybridizing going on it is inevitable.....How else could one tell in, lets say, 20 years from now if they have pure Mexicana unless Mexico decides to let certain collectors bring wild collected mexicana across the border?

John Lassiter

I would assume that there was a ruthveni in the woodpile somewhere. Even the best known, most upstanding breeder would be hard pressed to convince me that an amel ruthveni didn’t slip in the back door.

If it happened to me, I would assume (there’s that word again), that somewhere along the line a cross had slipped in the mix.

I am not saying it would be intentional, quite the opposite. Some of the crosses are impossible to tell from pure thayeri, it could happen. If an accidental ruthvini cross was introduced into a breeding group, how many generations would it take before even DNA would be inconclusive? Hybrids suck if only for this one reason. The imposters have completely destroyed any chance of the real thing being produced (unless found in the wild and then only by a very honest person).
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Rick,
I am not saying that this is the absolute truth, but I have heard and read on other forums years ago that it only takes 9 generations of outcrossing for the DNA to be indistinguishable from "pure" lines.........Just some info I picked up a few years back.
John Lassiter

I think it would be fun to see DNA studies of various of these Mexican kingsnakes to see how closely related they are and what common ancestry they may have. I don't buy the "all thayeri are hybrids" idea although I'm not experienced enough to have a strong opinion. The idea of every breeder having his own DNA kit would be nice because he could guarantee a "pure" thayeri that isn't too inbred.

The thought of owning a hybrid snake doesn't generally bother me, but from what I'm seeing here, I'd prefer to own a thayeri that's pure. Whatever questions this thread doesn't answer for the rest of you, at least I know of a bunch of people who are selling thayeri and doing their honest best to market animals that are pure thayeri. Seeing how strongly you all guard your reputations would give me more confidence dealing with you as a first time buyer.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.