Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know what you get when you breed a Hypo Honduran to an Eastern red milk snake? I am new to these totally but I find them very interesting. Thanks Andy
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Answer: Yes a Mutt.
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Steve W.

I'm not here to start the rioting of hybrid vs. pure, but I'd just like to invite ajfreptiles to the Hybrid Breeders Association forum. The link should be in my "signature". Although both of the snakes in question are different subspecies, they are still the same species. A hybrid would NOT result, but and integrade would instead.

To answer your question, you'd get a "generic" looking milksnake het for hypo, with the possibility of abberant patterns; more or less. Hybrids and integrades are not taken well here, so please come post with us in the Hybrid forum here on kingsnake.com, or the HBA.

There is much we can learn from the breedings of different species, especially in the field of eveolution. We have much more information you may find interesting, as well as helpful in deciding whether or not to hybridize or pure-breed.

Thank you.
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~Venom~
Hybrid Breeders Association

To be honest with you, the term "intergrade" is usually reserved for snakes that have a natural range overlap and the resulting offspring occur naturally in the wild. I understand the difference between the terms hybrid and intergrade, but I think that the term intergrade should be used less loosely. IMHO the term "cross" should be used, as these two snakes would never naturally intergrade. So the offspring should be labled as "Honduran X Eastern milk crosses" and not intergrades. Educating new herpers is vital to keep people from getting issues confused. As an avid field herper here in the Mississippi valley region of the states, we have many natural intergradation zones for various species of snakes. So when we use the term intergrade, we are referring to these types of snakes.
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Actually the term "intergrade" is not even correct. Intergrade comes out of botanical taxa referring to a cross between two variations of plants this is not a recognized term when dealing with the taxa of animals. Vars. are the taxa equivalent to sub-species if you didn't know. The correct term for this breeding would be Intra-specific hybrid.

Also the term "Cross" referring to crossbreeding is a term to describe any breeding of differing taxa and some times differing generations of captive animals.

""As an avid field herper here in the Mississippi valley region of the states, we have many natural intergradation zones for various species of snakes. So when we use the term intergrade, we are referring to these types of snakes.""

Secondly the more correct term used for any area where two differing taxa naturally crossbreed is a hybrid zone. This term comes out of an academic field of study that looks at gene flow between organisms of differing taxa. The study of this is called hybrid zone dynamics. However for some reason people from other disciplines have picked up the term intergradation zone and have spread it around with out recognizing there is already a term in existence that discribes it. Do to this the term has become nearly synonymous with hybrid zone but unfortunately brought with it the term intergrade which is incorrect.

I'm not going to spend my time correcting everyone though but since you were correcting someone already I figured I'd say something.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

I will forward your post to Robert Stebbins apparently he does not know that.

Grin its surprising sometimes how many people don't know it. I happened to find out a few months ago while doing some pelimanary research then when I started looking up academic leads for one of the studies running at(HBA)I then began to see it more and more. That kind of forced me to use the correct terms a lot more.

The thing I think I like the most out of the correct terms for hybrids are they tell you about the hybrid before you ever get to the name x name. Heres the correct terms if anyone is wondering (not that I really think anyone is in this forum:

Hybrid: Any crossbreeding between two organisms with differing taxonomical classifications.

Intra-specific hybrid: A crossbreed between two organisms within the same species. This is the more correct term for an intergrade.

Interspecific hybrid: A crossbreed between two organisms from two differing species.

Intergeneric hybrids: A crossbreed between two organisms from two differing genera.

I'm hope that herpiculture people will start using them since they are better terms. Just takes time and effort I guess.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Thank you for putting up those definitions. I like the term inter-specific hybrid. I think it better describes a man made hybrid because it includes both forms whose ranges overlap and those within a species whose ranges don't overlap.
I was trying to point out though that Stebbins Field Guide to Western Reptiles and Amphibians uses the term intergrade to describe subspecies of a sinlge species which merge into one another through an intermediate or series of intermediate forms. I think we are actually both correct. Here is the definition copied and pasted from Google Scholar:

in·ter·grade (ĭn'tər-grâd')
intr.v., -grad·ed, -grad·ing, -grades.
To merge into each other in a series of stages, forms, or types.

n. (ĭn'tər-grâd')
A transitional stage, form, or type.

No problem the terms were a pleasure to post.

As for Stebbin's guide what you have to remember is that it was written in 1966 and revisited once in 1985 (to my knowledge) to add some new material mainly more species and sub-species. Since that time there have been plenty of scientific advances in herp related fields. The sad thing is, is it has become hard to keep up with all of the terms that are generated from these advances.

Intergrade is a good word and linquistily speaking is correct but because it is so non-specific to its subject matter the other terms are more correct for our usage. I'll admit I still use intergrade sometimes (It's a lot less to type) but I've been trying my best to adopt the newer terms.

I try not to differentiate between wild occurring hybrids and those that are captive breed. The reason being is natural migration and invasive species. In my eyes they all hold a possibility so long as the animals remain reproductively viable. So it never made sense to me why people would judge them any differently. This is one of the reasons I like the newer terms too because they don't discriminate unnecessarily just because of locality.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

I don't think it's discriminatory to know the differences between natural intergrade, man-made crosses and invasive species crosses.

You got what I was tying to say a little jumbled.. I meant the world discriminatory as in it's meaning critical. The part about invasive species and migrations are just to say under the right conditions that any two animals could potentially have the ability to overlap their territories and this is is what creates the problem with being overly critical. Hope that helps to clear that up.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

These snakes, no matter how nice they look are still Frankensnakes. If people keep them and do so responsibly as to make sure they are not misrepresented and sold as pure or released into the wild thats fine. But this is still the wrong forum for hybridizers to make a case.
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Steve W.

If they want to play on our home turf that is fine with me. As long as these discussions stay civil I don't care where they discuss it. The way I look at it whenever this is brought up more people are made aware of the problem with unwanted hybrid blood creeping into the bloodlines. Some people will dicide they want a hybrid and some people will decide they don't but more importantly some people will be better educated to spot hybrids that are offered as pure. I don't like hybrids at all but this is America, land of the free.

Well said Aaron we don't come here to start problems. We simply want to be shown the same respect that we are willing to show other breeders no matter the species or cross. If you don't like hybrids that's your choice just have some respect and remember we will spend our time correcting any misconceptions that arise in any of the forums.

Secondly we come here because it gives us a chance to educate people about the real issues we face as many of them are systemic through out the entire hobby of herpiculture. Many of these issues effect all of us and it only takes a small amount of professionalism and co-operation between us to give us the opportunity to look at the issues and potentially devise ways to fix the problems and or keep issues such as maintaining species integrity on the correct path.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

I really have to laugh at this whole animosity towards the Hybrid Breeders, especially when many on here are breeding the natural colors right out of snakes by striving towards Ghosts, Snows, etc. I personally have no problems with Hybrids at all, and find many of them to be very attractive snakes. somebody on here described Hybrids as "Designer Snakes", which I would be more inclined to think of Vanishing Patterned, Hypo's, Extreme's and so on as a better match for that description. Is the hatred of Hybrids that they would not be found in nature?? Would Applegate Pyro's?? Striped Sinaloans?? The list goes on, and I am sure that many of these bloodlines are probably not as pure as we all think....

Yup, not too crazy about morphs either. Just my opinion. "Applegate Pyros" occured naturally from what I've been told. I have owned Amels etc.and perhaps the hobby moves toward "cultivars" like flowers etc.and we just have to get used to it.(not going to lose sleep over it,I have a life) Not up to me to decide what other folks do/like. Many times amels look like some kind of anemic animal to me,lacking the cool colors of "normals".A refined Abbots Oakatee for example for me blows away ANY amel. But realisticly that is not a "naturally" occuring animal in a strict sense. I am not too intense about the whole thing. But a mutt is a mutt as Steve said. You can have your vanishing,quadriple het,peanut butter,ghost,hypo,pastel at your table and a lot of us will pass by thinking "kinda interesting looking" or "that's weird" then settle on "whatever" and move on. Not trying to be snotty, generally just doesn't do it for me and I think in all the bluster for them folks forget not everyone is impressed.
Bob

Yeah Bob, I guess it pays to be impressed by the rare morphs...until they become so commonplace that the price drops to nothing. I have been to Applegates place near San Diego, and he bred the black out of his Pyro's over MANY years of selective breeding. However, I have never ostrascized any snake keeper for liking whatever morphs he likes, even though they might not be my personal preference. It seems like there might not be as much tolerance for those that dont like Hypo's, Hybino's, Amel's, Aneury's, etc...and like the unusual possibilities of Hybrids. Anyway, I am not a fanatic about it either way, but dont see why the Hybrids cannot be discussed here occasionally when dealing with Milksnake Hybrids.

Peace to all

Breeding two normal looking snakes that happen to carry a gene for hypo, albino, anerythrystic etc. is a little different than breeding two different subspecies together. Correct?
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Steve W.

I'm not sure why you haven't gotten this yet but its getting silly to put it bluntly its comments like frankensnakes that will continue making these conversations pop up here. This isn't just a hybrid issue since the comments were made here.

All were asking is for a little respect and that if you don't want to handle telling people correct information that you will just respectfully guide the poster to the proper forum so we can.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

It does not matter if you are breeding two different subspecies if milks or two different species of snakes. They are still considered hybrids. This is not the hybrid forum. I don't know how else to explain this to you. I reason the dog example was used is because it makes it easier to explain. You may not like the "mutt" example that was used but it's a valid comparison. If something is not pure it is a mutt. Sorry if it offends you but sometimes the truth hurts.
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Steve W.

It does not matter if you are breeding two different subspecies if milks or two different species of snakes. They are still considered hybrids. This is not the hybrid forum. I don't know how else to explain this to you."""

I already understand your point and its just not very applicable here because we are talking more about setting ethical standards of posting on this forum right now then we are about hybrids in general.

"""I reason the dog example was used is because it makes it easier to explain. You may not like the "mutt" example that was used but it's a valid comparison. If something is not pure it is a mutt. Sorry if it offends you but sometimes the truth hurts."""

Ok this seems to be the big thing that you don't seem to get the word Mutt isn't the truth.. We have scientifically accepted terms in herpetology and herpiculture for a reason, when people don't use them then we all lose out. This is true if your talking about a pure taxa or a hybrid. If I call a hypo animal a muted animal its incorrect. Inaccuracies like these spread easily through herpiculture because herpiculture clings to common terms more often then it should. This is what needs to be avoided or everyone will end up having a different set of terms they try to use.

Secondly I'm not sure why you are so stuck on this pure thing nature doesn't always work that way. Genes in nature are past back and forth across taxa lines it is a function of evolution at the genetic level. It is out of the study of gene flow across taxa lines that we have the terms for this. The terms and explanation of the terms are the actual truth of the matter and are the reason that the word Mutt is so wrong here.

In the end just because something is easier doesn't make it right or valid. You speak about pride a lot through out this topic so let me put it this way these terms were given to us by people who had pride and diligently worked for years to education themselves and others in this field. It is simply disrespectful of the pride they took in that work to throw it out the window simply because its easier.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

The pride issue does mean a lot to many of us. We have been out in the field for many years. Myself and many other including the founder of this website Jeff Barringer have been working on locality specific animals for years. Field work is not cross breeding different subspecies/species of snakes in cages. So yes we do have pride in keeping our lines pure.
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Steve W.

You kinda took the wrong meaning of field... I meant herpitology... hybrid zone dynamics... evolutionary biology... developmental biology... biology... genetics... among others these are all fields with hard working people behind them which lend their knowledge to each other for a common purpose.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

since the first thread involved a milksnake cross then YES this is the "RIGHT" forum as long as the post keeps with the origional post it is allowed to stay. the topic is crosses and that is what we are discussing.
if you dont like the topic and hand then dont read it or respond to it. this post does not prevent you from posting a new topic so what harm is it here anyway? if you dont like it dont read it
adam 2
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hybrid breeders association
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle

You know answers like this do absolutly nothing for the image of herpiculture. Why can't you just send the guy to the hybrid forum if you don't aprove of what he is asking.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

You get a Hybrid...either a great looking snake, or a mish mash of colors.

Thanks for some honest answers....really I had no idea that they are not something you would cross...not that I am against crosses or even Hybrids...but all I was thinking was they would make a nice combo...so I thought...Anyway, I really just need to learn the differences of each species...I can't even figure out the difference of Nelson and Honduraans...LOL...I have a lot to learn. Thanks for letting me know about the Hybrid forums. Thanks all. Andy Federico
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i doubt there is a difference, maybe size and location
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jake

my addiction:
1.1? normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1? amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

You would get a POS that belongs in the freezer. What we do when breeding captive reptile populations will have effects that will still be in play long after we're gone. All of the different breeds of dogs started from a common ancestor. Is that what we want for captive snake species, each of which is magnificent just as it is?

is the above post even allowed by the terms of service? Especially with the insinuative language...
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~Venom~
Hybrid Breeders Association

If you like crosses that's fine. But it should be posted on the right forum, not here. Way too many people take pride in the fact that they have kept their lines "pure". It's not an insult to say that a mutt. Dog breeders would not breed a collie with a lab and have it be called anything else. Ethics also come into play.
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Steve W.

I'm talking about the use of obvious profanity and saying that ANY snake should be "kept in the freezer" is anything OTHER than what this entire website is all about. If your collie was bred by a lab, would you throw the puppies into a freezer? hmm? I doubt it. It's just ridiculous what people can get away with here...
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~Venom~

Hybrid Breeders Association

"""If you like crosses that's fine. But it should be posted on the right forum, not here. Way too many people take pride in the fact that they have kept their lines "pure". It's not an insult to say that a mutt. Dog breeders would not breed a collie with a lab and have it be called anything else. Ethics also come into play."""

To much pride will always cause problems.

It doesn't matter if it was a hybrid or not he was asking about breeding a milk snake this is the milk snake forum isn't... If you don't like what he was asking or you think some other forum could better answer the question then point the person there. There isn't any need to launch into a banter of anti-hybrid comments.

The problem with calling it a mutt is that its incorrect and inflammatory. This is exactly the attitude that has continue the growing rift between herpetology and the industry now known as herpiculture. I would think with everything that herpetology has given us we could at least show some small bit of respect and use the correct terms that have been given to us by their many hard years of research and work.

Second were not dog breeders so don't use their terms. I would hate to go to a reptile show and see a bunch of judges parade around giving out blue ribbons to the breeder with the prettiest milksnake.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Funny, I would like to see the hobby reach the point where the best of the best were bred and judged according to the taxonimic standard for that species.

I think as hobbist we often inbreed too much and dont acknowledge that some of the pattern variation we see is because of inbreeding. If it continues in the long run what makes each species distinct will be lost. Same thing goes for hybridization. That is the real reason there are dog shows, to ensure that the standard (and health) of a particular type of dog is maintained over time so that future generations will be able to enjoy what a real Australian Shephard (or sinaloan) looks and acts like.

If people want to hybridize that is up to them, but I would not like it if all milks started to look the same; more so than they do already of course

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Ugh?!? why do I feel like you just handed me a loaded gun?

The reason there are dogshows are because of prideful breeders and owners and the honors they get bestowed upon them at the shows, in addition to the rewards of showing off those honors afterward. In the end it comes down to money and pride.

What you have to understand is that many pure breed domestic dogs and even some cat pedigrees are plagued with health problems ranging from early on set of arthritis to other more serious conditions. Yet many of these conditions were allowed to continue because they help achieve an ideal look. Also many of the breed standards have also changed over the years so the best in show winner 30 years ago might not even make it to the finals today. So what you really end up seeing at these shows is not the pure breed that "was" but the "current ideal" as someone else said it should be. Animal shows such as these will never give a genuine conservation of a taxa because a healthy population wild animals have a great amount of genetic diversity that when breed in captivity is totally lost.

The second thing is just because we've classified them into taxas doesn't mean that evolution has stopped for them these animals will keep changing until they die out or have changed so much that the taxa no longer includes them. Its important to remember when people collect animals from the wild to start breeding programs what they are actually doing is removing them from that diversity. Then when a breeder starts to select down for traits to get to an "Ideal Look" or to even fit a standard, the breeder is actually removing yet more of this genetic diversity from the available captive gene pool. (If you want to breed the reptile equivalent to a lab mouse all you need to do is remove just a little too much genetic diversity.)Inbreeding as you mentioned actually does the same thing but in an even shorter period of time. Each time a breeder inbreeds an animal they raise the chances of a pre-existent het genetic condition that was hidden to surface this is the very thing that genetic diversity protects against in the wild.

I hear people constantly say they fear that if you hybridize an animal sooner or later all of X and X will end up looking the same. This is very unlikely to happen I was just going to leave this be but seeing as its related to what I was saying above I'm just going to go with it. As I was saying many types of breeding programs actually remove genetic diversity. However hybrid breedings do the opposite of this they initially add more genetic diversity into the mixing pot. This is the main reason that many hybrids produce such variable offspring. Also this variability will continue until a breeder stops introducing new genetic material into the mix and or starts selecting out traits they would like to preserve. In the end it all depends on how the breeder wants to guide their projects but; because, individuals each have their preferences as to what looks good it becomes very unlikely that everyone would guide their projects the same way or direction.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

OK, nice reply but of lot of it is wrong....

>>The reason there are dogshows are because of prideful breeders and owners and the honors they get bestowed upon them at the shows, in addition to the rewards of showing off those honors afterward. In the end it comes down to money and pride.

Thats a emotion loaded responce which will not be possible to disput becasuse thats what you really want to believe. Regardless, it is not true. Dog shows are to define and select breed standards, which prevents all dogs from looking alike. Sure there is money and yes there is pride. But the pride comes from having an dog that most perfectly matches a stadard.

>>What you have to understand is that many pure breed domestic dogs and even some cat pedigrees are plagued with health problems ranging from early on set of arthritis to other more serious conditions. Yet many of these conditions were allowed to continue because they help achieve an ideal look.

Yes, there are health problems. But no, they are not allowed to continue at the expense of the standard. If so then no one would buy an animal with bad genetics for that kind of money and in fact in order to get into the shows breeds with recurrent health problems have to be vet. certified that they do not have these diseases.

>>Also many of the breed standards have also changed over the years so the best in show winner 30 years ago might not even make it to the finals today. So what you really end up seeing at these shows is not the pure breed that "was" but the "current ideal" as someone else said it should be. Animal shows such as these will never give a genuine conservation of a taxa because a healthy population wild animals have a great amount of genetic diversity that when breed in captivity is totally lost.

In fact they are not trying to conserve taxa because there is no intent to reintroduce a chihuahua, for example, into the wild. What they are trying to do is maintain a standard, many of which were not formalized 30 years ago. And in fact, dogs do not have less genetic diversity than wolves. Also, pedigree information prevents inbreeding by allowing breeders to select the most unrelated animals to breed, the effect of which is to maintain genetic diversity. So no, genetic diversity is not totally lost in captivity.

Also, a captive popultion of animals will have the same ammount of genetic diversity as the wild popultion if the captive pop. is sampled from its range. Since that is often not the case there is little diversity to begin with, so you need to act to maintain it be not crossing close sibs or regularly outcrossing to unrelated individuals.

>>The second thing is just because we've classified them into taxas doesn't mean that evolution has stopped for them these animals will keep changing until they die out or have changed so much that the taxa no longer includes them.

Morpholigical evolution occurs over many generations and is rarely observable. I am not interested in trying to eunsure that my captive animals evolve with the wild pop. I like them because of what they look like now, which by the way is what the wild pop. will look like when my kids die, if some animals in the wild in a couple of generations look differet cool. Than my grandkids will be able to see a different wild animals and see what they used to look like when I was around.

>>Its important to remember when people collect animals from the wild to start breeding programs what they are actually doing is removing them from that diversity.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how well sampled the wild population is and how much genetic diversity there is in the wild population

>>Then when a breeder starts to select down for traits to get to an "Ideal Look" or to even fit a standard, the breeder is actually removing yet more of this genetic diversity from the available captive gene pool. (If you want to breed the reptile equivalent to a lab mouse all you need to do is remove just a little too much genetic diversity.)

Again maybe, maybe not. Why do you assume that breeding to fit a standard removed genetic diveristy? its simple not true. If the breeders have great genetic diversity than others than the offspring will have greater genetic diversity than others. Lab mice have no genetic diveristy and they were bred that way on purpose to remove experimental varation from doing experiments in animals with different genetic backgrounds. They are not analagous.

I hear people constantly say they fear that if you hybridize an animal sooner or later all of X and X will end up looking the same. This is very unlikely to happen I was just going to leave this be but seeing as its related to what I was saying above I'm just going to go with it. As I was saying many types of breeding programs actually remove genetic diversity.

>>However hybrid breedings do the opposite of this they initially add more genetic diversity into the mixing pot.

Sure, that adds genetic diveristy but only if those genes make it into the majority of the captive pop. Which would reduce the species distinction between them. Also, species often have particular allelic variants that are deleterious in other genetic backgrounds (Bateson imcompatabilities) so by hybridizing you introduce an allele to a new species that does not have the genetic background to counter the deleterious effects of the allele and that leads to decreased fitness. The exact opposite of what you are aiming to do by hybridizing.

>>This is the main reason that many hybrids produce such variable offspring. Also this variability will continue until a breeder stops introducing new genetic material into the mix and or starts selecting out traits they would like to preserve.

Morphological variability is not, in its self, a good thing. Why do you assume that it is? You actually can get variability in a highly inbred population (fluctuating assymetry for example).

>>In the end it all depends on how the breeder wants to guide their projects but; because, individuals each have their preferences as to what looks good it becomes very unlikely that everyone would guide their projects the same way or direction.

I agreee, I did not say I wanted laws enacted to ensure that only animals with certain looks were bred. I just said I would like to see certain standards maintianed, by those of us who care to do such things. It would prevent you from doing what ever you please.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

>>What you have to understand is that many pure breed domestic dogs and even some cat pedigrees are plagued with health problems ranging from early on set of arthritis to other more serious conditions. Yet many of these conditions were allowed to continue because they help achieve an ideal look.

Yes, there are health problems. But no, they are not allowed to continue at the expense of the standard. If so then no one would buy an animal with bad genetics for that kind of money and in fact in order to get into the shows breeds with recurrent health problems have to be vet. certified that they do not have these diseases

actually most show dogs are shown young as to lower the chances of such disorders showing up. yes they cannot be SHOWN if they have any disorder, but they can still be bred and sold. and if they win a good competition their offsprings value goes up weather or not they get arthritis later on or not.
living in an area with a lot of show dogs you see what goes on. also the akc is set up to help educate owners on what dogs should not be bred to each other but they do not prevent it.
when growing up we had a tibetin spaniel at the time their were 12 in the country and they were being inbred on purpose with permission from the akc in order to make more available in this country.
adam 2
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hybrid breeders association
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle

Hey Adam2,

My post was not meant to imply that the shows themselves are set up to prevent diseases associated with inbreeding from showing up, only that breeding to maintain the standard of a species is a good thing. I ofcourse would not condone people knowingly breeding an animal with a genetic disease, which is what responcible breeders would not do, just to maintain the standard since in the long run it would cause the breed to collpase. They are irresponcible breeders though who would do such tings. But, we should not base out actions on what irresponcible people do.

(Also, my post was not meant to imply you should not hybridize if you want to, only that I worry in the long run we may loose what makes each species unique if we are not careful.)

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

"""Thats a emotion loaded responce which will not be possible to disput becasuse thats what you really want to believe. Regardless, it is not true. Dog shows are to define and select breed standards, which prevents all dogs from looking alike. Sure there is money and yes there is pride. But the pride comes from having an dog that most perfectly matches a stadard."""

Believe it or not emotionalism isn't my stick sorry if sound like that. If the points are good enough I could change my mind about this show thing as I don't really like being this critical about stuff.

To start out the standard that is defined in the shows are man made, man judged, and man continued is not the same thing as say the a natural range of X taxa. I really stress this as there have been many clear examples of breed standards changing over the years and because of this I say that it wouldn't work well for the purpose that you originally expressed. All in all I just wanted to point out that pedigree like shows are not a conservationist effort and do not preserve the taxa of a given species.

"""Yes, there are health problems. But no, they are not allowed to continue at the expense of the standard. If so then no one would buy an animal with bad genetics for that kind of money and in fact in order to get into the shows breeds with recurrent health problems have to be vet. certified that they do not have these diseases."""

Just because a animal doesn't have any diseases so to say does not instantly make it healthy. One of the things I can point out are the many cases respiratory problems of some of the flatter faced pedigrees. While this doesn't represent a disease it is still a geneticly influenced condition that is allowed to remain.

""In fact they are not trying to conserve taxa because there is no intent to reintroduce a chihuahua, for example, into the wild. What they are trying to do is maintain a standard, many of which were not formalized 30 years ago. And in fact, dogs do not have less genetic diversity than wolves. Also, pedigree information prevents inbreeding by allowing breeders to select the most unrelated animals to breed, the effect of which is to maintain genetic diversity. So no, genetic diversity is not totally lost in captivity.

Also, a captive popultion of animals will have the same ammount of genetic diversity as the wild popultion if the captive pop. is sampled from its range. Since that is often not the case there is little diversity to begin with, so you need to act to maintain it be not crossing close sibs or regularly outcrossing to unrelated individuals. ""

Your right a show does not conserve a taxa this is also what I was saying. I don't really know why people like to compare wild snakes and captive snakes to dogs and wolves as there is no domestic snake yet. Captive snakes in most cases maybe other then cornsnakes have yet to be breed long enough to see any effect of genetic domestication.

Secondly, I didn't say that all diversity is lost, I said a great deal of diversity is totally lost this makes for a much different conversation. As this is statistically true when looking at population numbers across vast ranges. Unless you can insure proper sampling and provide continued re-sampling of them with out that and good breeding habits this will aways be true. We can calk this up to the simple effects of entropy on a limited population which is further diminished by non-breeding keepers and the death of existing captives.

"""Morpholigical evolution occurs over many generations and is rarely observable. I am not interested in trying to eunsure that my captive animals evolve with the wild pop. I like them because of what they look like now, which by the way is what the wild pop. will look like when my kids die, if some animals in the wild in a couple of generations look differet cool. Than my grandkids will be able to see a different wild animals and see what they used to look like when I was around."""

Evolution happens provided certain conditions are met in nature depending on these conditions the speed of evolution can be decreased or increased. There is no guarantee on the length of time between periods of any evolution especially punctuated evolution. Arguing such is like playing Russian roulette with unknown odds. All it really takes is one dominant mutation to appear for a major evolutionary event to take place.

"""Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how well sampled the wild population is and how much genetic diversity there is in the wild population"""

You're partially right with this as was I. This really is an important factor to remember.

"""Again maybe, maybe not. Why do you assume that breeding to fit a standard removed genetic diveristy? its simple not true. If the breeders have great genetic diversity than others than the offspring will have greater genetic diversity than others. Lab mice have no genetic diveristy and they were bred that way on purpose to remove experimental varation from doing experiments in animals with different genetic backgrounds. They are not analagous."""

You said you wanted a show so people could breed to a standard of a taxa. I'm looking at this from the point of breeding to a standard within a taxa. (The lab mouse part was a bad joke I like to use, is it on point yes and no.) Keeping the genetic diversity in a captive population is a great deal of work with out people judging them to a standard within that taxa. Basically why I say this is you can have two fairly different looking animals that are not classified as subspecies fit into a taxa. If these animals are judged and one is judged as a better representative of the species what would then happen to the other. More then likely it would be breed to look more like the better representative. To give another example I don't want to see it come down to debates on whats better x number of such and such scales or y number of such and such scales if both are possible ranges for the taxa. I'm not sure if you looked at it this way but its a very feasible possibility if pedigree like shows were put into practice.

"""Sure, that adds genetic diveristy but only if those genes make it into the majority of the captive pop. Which would reduce the species distinction between them. Also, species often have particular allelic variants that are deleterious in other genetic backgrounds (Bateson imcompatabilities) so by hybridizing you introduce an allele to a new species that does not have the genetic background to counter the deleterious effects of the allele and that leads to decreased fitness. The exact opposite of what you are aiming to do by hybridizing."""

You forget to say that just as a deleterious allele can be transferred so can the genetic background to counter it. All breeding programs need to watch out for deleterious mutations hybrids are no different in this. However I have yet to see any major prezygotic incompatibilities so I would be surprised if I find any postzygotic incompatibilities. However, this is one of the things that (HBA) is actually looking for in recording hybrid breedings. Its one of the ways were trying to support the hybrid community by keeping people informed of any problems that are encountered so that they maybe reversed, stopped or other wise breed around to ensure healthy breeding programs across the board.

"""Morphological variability is not, in its self, a good thing. Why do you assume that it is? You actually can get variability in a highly inbred population (fluctuating assymetry for example)."""

I didn't say that it was in its self a good thing, I only mentioned it because you seemed worried that they would all look the same after a while. What I hinted at is that with this morphological variability we can guide projects away from looking alike. This way we can have both the natural taxa and the hybrid cultivar.

"""I agreee, I did not say I wanted laws enacted to ensure that only animals with certain looks were bred. I just said I would like to see certain standards maintianed, by those of us who care to do such things. It would prevent you from doing what ever you please."""

Its funny that were not really arguing as it might look to some... BTW - I didn't say that you wanted any laws. I was just saying that shows are not motivated by conservation and that they could actually be counter productive to this cause. Secondly I wanted to assure you that hybrid breeding projects would not make all snakes look alike as you expressed concern at this.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Hey aberlour,

Yeah, I never took it to be an argument. Just some hashing out of ideas, which is fun and usefull. So here we go again....

>>To start out the standard that is defined in the shows are man made, man judged, and man continued is not the same thing as say the a natural range of X taxa. I really stress this as there have been many clear examples of breed standards changing over the years and because of this I say that it wouldn't work well for the purpose that you originally expressed. All in all I just wanted to point out that pedigree like shows are not a conservationist effort and do not preserve the taxa of a given species.

I agree that the standards in dog shows are totally human constructs of what some "ideal" breed is, and that things certainly have changed. And I considered saying almost exactly the same thing about the actual standard causing health problems in come breeds (like bull dogs, shar-peis and the like), but thought my post was a little long.

But, in the scenario I imagined (which was only analogous to dog shows) it was more akin to what happens in zoos which try to both maintain genetic diveristy though selective breeding, not allow individuals with defects to reproduce and maintain the morphology of an animal within the range that is seen in the wild. What makes me think of this the most are milks with really really aberant patterns like lots of band cross overs and unusually high band counts (something I suspect is the first sign inbreeding depression going on). The idea of showing an animal is just to show it off and say this is a really good example of what this species looks like.

>>Secondly, I didn't say that all diversity is lost, I said a great deal of diversity is totally lost this makes for a much different conversation. As this is statistically true when looking at population numbers across vast ranges. Unless you can insure proper sampling and provide continued re-sampling of them with out that and good breeding habits this will aways be true. We can calk this up to the simple effects of entropy on a limited population which is further diminished by non-breeding keepers and the death of existing captives.

This is why I think keeping careful records and not continually inbreeding is a good idea. Funny this is is that many species naturally have very low genetic diveristy because of population bottlenecks, founder effects and it does not seem to matter much. After all if all loci in the genome are fixed for non-deleterious alleles there is not going to be a problem unless a new challange arises. All speciation events bottleneck a population and reduced diversity until the accumulation of new mutations over many generations restores it.

>>Evolution happens provided certain conditions are met in nature depending on these conditions the speed of evolution can be decreased or increased. There is no guarantee on the length of time between periods of any evolution especially punctuated evolution. Arguing such is like playing Russian roulette with unknown odds. All it really takes is one dominant mutation to appear for a major evolutionary event to take place.

I'll play roulette with those odds. Most mutations are deleterious and will be removed from the population, and it will still take many generations for those very rare advantageous mutations to become fixed in the population. So we should be safe.

>> Keeping the genetic diversity in a captive population is a great deal of work with out people judging them to a standard within that taxa. Basically why I say this is you can have two fairly different looking animals that are not classified as subspecies fit into a taxa. If these animals are judged and one is judged as a better representative of the species what would then happen to the other. More then likely it would be breed to look more like the better representative. To give another example I don't want to see it come down to debates on whats better x number of such and such scales or y number of such and such scales if both are possible ranges for the taxa. I'm not sure if you looked at it this way but its a very feasible possibility if pedigree like shows were put into practice.

Good point I should have been more clear. I didn't have a single archtypical species type in mind when I suggested it. I thouht something more like looking at a species description, sinaloan milks for example have generally have 13-18 red rings and 9-13 dorsal scales/red band so we would consider an animal with these characteristics a better example that one with 25 red bands. Since there is natural variation in most populations characters like x scale rows this would need to be accepted (x-z rows) and all animals that fit within the range that is present in the wild would be judged equally. But some sinaloan with 28 red rings and b scale rows would be considered a bad breeder (still a great pet though).

>>You forget to say that just as a deleterious allele can be transferred so can the genetic background to counter it. All breeding programs need to watch out for deleterious mutations hybrids are no different in this. However I have yet to see any major prezygotic incompatibilities so I would be surprised if I find any postzygotic incompatibilities. However, this is one of the things that (HBA) is actually looking for in recording hybrid breedings. Its one of the ways were trying to support the hybrid community by keeping people informed of any problems that are encountered so that they maybe reversed, stopped or other wise breed around to ensure healthy breeding programs across the board.

It is possbile for a nullifying allele to be passed along with a deleterious one, its just below 50% in an F1 hybrid. If that F1 is crossed to something else it will be below 25%, cross it out again it will be 12.5%, etc. Hybrids are no different, but the odds are higher so there is a greater need for vigilance (which you and the HBA are obviously doing).

>>Secondly I wanted to assure you that hybrid breeding projects would not make all snakes look alike as you expressed concern at this.

From you post I am not worried that you would cause the collapse of a species in captivity. But what happens when that 50/50 is backcrossed so now you have a 75/25 that LOOKS like a pure X but has 25%Y? Some one buys it and starts to breed it disgarding its a hybrid then the gene pool is polluted. Not that that per se should stop you though. Its just something I worry about.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Sorry it took so long to reply

"""But, in the scenario I imagined (which was only analogous to dog shows) it was more akin to what happens in zoos which try to both maintain genetic diveristy though selective breeding, not allow individuals with defects to reproduce and maintain the morphology of an animal within the range that is seen in the wild."""

I wouldn't mind the idea of shows so much if they didn't have the potential for so many problems. I think what would do more good is some type of breeders association that could hand out awards for say good breeding standards, breeder of the year, or something along those line. The idea is that we need to accent the positive things that we would like see happen more rather then create openings for things that could cause problems.

"""What makes me think of this the most are milks with really really aberant patterns like lots of band cross overs and unusually high band counts (something I suspect is the first sign inbreeding depression going on). The idea of showing an animal is just to show it off and say this is a really good example of what this species looks like."""

Well it could be inbreeding or it could be that the genes that control it have some range of variable expression. It could also be caused by RNA masking some neutral mutations that only a small amount of inbreeding stabilized. I get what your saying though.

"""This is why I think keeping careful records and not continually inbreeding is a good idea."""

Keeping good records is paramount to the future of herpiculture. There is one problem with herpiculture that causes so many cases of inbreeding and it basically comes out of the need to prove and populate rare morphs quickly. If rare morphs didn't carry a abnormally high value then we might not have so many of these cases.

"""Funny this is is that many species naturally have very low genetic diveristy because of population bottlenecks, founder effects and it does not seem to matter much. After all if all loci in the genome are fixed for non-deleterious alleles there is not going to be a problem unless a new challange arises. All speciation events bottleneck a population and reduced diversity until the accumulation of new mutations over many generations restores it."""

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right so I'll just answer this as I think you meant it (just to warn you in advance). The loci is only the position of a gene or a sequence of genes on a chromosome. This is the thing people need to remember genes aren't as fixed as people would like to think, look up: gene inversion, gene translocation, deletion mutation, substitution mutation, and DNA inversion mutation, each of these are ways that change the DNA sequences around which can cause new deleterious mutations or neutral mutations to enter into the population. So genomes aren't fixed so to say at best they could be described as stable or not-stable based on the rate of mutations that occur in it. Speciation doesn't have to follow isolations either it can be a case of punctuated evolution something like this would be where a dominant mutation quickly spreads through a population. However for the most part your right.

""I'll play roulette with those odds. Most mutations are deleterious and will be removed from the population, and it will still take many generations for those very rare advantageous mutations to become fixed in the population. So we should be safe.""

Recessive mutations are very hard to remove from a population once they are there try to find a LTC CB cornsnake that isn't het for something.

"""Good point I should have been more clear. I didn't have a single archtypical species type in mind when I suggested it. I thouht something more like looking at a species description, sinaloan milks for example have generally have 13-18 red rings and 9-13 dorsal scales/red band so we would consider an animal with these characteristics a better example that one with 25 red bands. Since there is natural variation in most populations characters like x scale rows this would need to be accepted (x-z rows) and all animals that fit within the range that is present in the wild would be judged equally. But some sinaloan with 28 red rings and b scale rows would be considered a bad breeder (still a great pet though)."""

I'm glad you got what I was saying here. The problem that I see is things like this aren't always judged equally. What happens if the winners start to turn out to be sinaloan's with 18 red rings rather then any other number. We know breeders from other shows breed to win why would it be different here?

""From you post I am not worried that you would cause the collapse of a species in captivity. But what happens when that 50/50 is backcrossed so now you have a 75/25 that LOOKS like a pure X but has 25%Y? Some one buys it and starts to breed it disgarding its a hybrid then the gene pool is polluted. Not that that per se should stop you though. Its just something I worry about.""

I'm not going to lie its a possibility just like an animal getting sold at a pet shop could be the wrong sub-species as the dealer sold it as and it can get breed into the population that way. Its ok I worry about it too its one of the reasons I helped start HBA we don't want this type of thing to happen. What I think it really boils down to is the spreading of industry names for hybrids and making sure that people use them. If we look at say a creamsicle corn its about a 75/25 people are starting to backcrossing them more now to add in new morphs and from what I've seen breeders have held onto their two names rootbeer corn or creamsicle corn. So even though these are now 87.5/12.5 mixes the industry name have held true. So the more people that have pride in showing off the actual industry name of the animal the less likely something like this will actually happen.

The other half of this problem though is going to have to be fixed on the pure breeders side. All of herpiculture needs to co-operate to keep this from happening though and this means that people will need to start up breeder associations for each species complex so that we can establish trusted sources for them. This is really the only solution that will help with this sort of problem.

There is one more small part to this that applies to all of us and that is we shouldn't breed any questionable animal and represent it as a pure animal. A questionable animal is one that is gotten from a person with no history of its lineage it could be a rescued animal or gotten from a person that just didn't seem like they know what they were talking about or even a petshop like petco or petsmart.... I know this is a little harsh, but if you want to be safe its the way to go..
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

All of the issues you have stated will eventually affect hybrids too once hybrid breeds have been established. There are a few established already, Jurrasic Milks, Jungle Corns, Imperial Pueblans. They all will need new blood from time to time just as any pure or locality project will. I think it's a hollow arguement. A 75% corn/25% cal king would not be a Jungle Corn if there is some unknown pituophis in there. So record keeping and inbreeding will affect hybrids as well unless you just don't care about creating breeds.

Your right it does effect hybrids as well. The only difference is that with hybrids you have a wider range of chooses to get the new blood from. So the onset of this will be later provided that the species the hybrid is produced from isn't already too inbreed to have a viable genetic fitness level.

I would eventually like to see stable breeds produced. However may of the hybrids on the market do not yet breed true. Meaning that not all of them produce stable or predictable offspring. Some of them do breed true though it really depends on the hybrid. I actually find it quite exciting not knowing what the next batches will look like.

I can't really count how many times I've mentioned record keeping in these posts (I know I've done it a few times). Its really one of the top issues that I try to advocate without it everything is lost for herpiculture. It doesn't matter if your a breeder of hybrids or pure animals this is one of those issues that effects everything. This is one of the reasons that I decided to post in this conversation because its going to take both anti-hybrid people and hybrid people working together to ensure that we can maintain viable breeding populations. I'm not telling people that we have to agree fully on hybrids but we need to maintain a level of professionalism that will help with these issues especially issues that effect all of us.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

"The only difference is that with hybrids you have a wider range of chooses to get the new blood from"

My point is that this is not neccessarily the case, there is no intrinsic advantage in this regard with hybrids that are recognized cultivars. Yes if you are saying you can just throw together any two snakes and don't care what you mix then it's true there is a wider gene pool within the captive population. But not if you are trying to maintain a particular cultivar, and there are bound to be some popular combos that hybriders will want to maintain. If the ingredients for a hybrid cultivar are rare or hard to obtain from the wild then there is no difference between that and a rare locality pure project.

I got what your saying, and its true to a point that has yet to be fully reached by many hybrid projects as many of the cultivars are still very loosely defined. The bluntest truth in this is that it really depends on the diversity being available from the pure species involved in the cross. This is the reason I've been so vocal about keep good records through out all of this. If we got down to the nitty gritty and someone was working with say a locality dependent hybrid then the breeder's project could become very limited in the available diversity.

Here is the parallel truth as most part this is solved by the ability to outcross to either parent species and this is the reason there is a wider choice in maintaining the diversity. The options basically equal the number of lineages available to the sum of all the species involved in the breeding program. These options are then limited by the breeder and the standards that are later formulated for the new cultivar plus any preconceived standards taken into consideration when selecting the initial stock. All of this remains applicable until they really start to reduce the diversity by selecting out for different traits. After that any additional outcrosses must be selected more carefully in order to maintain any of the standards they are working towards.

Provided this work is done publicly like we're trying for on (HBA). Then other interested breeders can then follow the development of the cultivars for their own breeding programs which can also help yield more diversity to them since not everyone can afford huge breeding projects. This also allows us to do other things that will be useful to herpiculture in general like providing photo records that could potentially make it easier to ID a hybrid in the future. There is a huge application range for the this data though that I'm sure you can easily recognize.

On a side note since you mentioned rare species as much as I would like to see some of the rare species used in hybrids many of us have realize this is counter productive to our end goals and advocate only using more commonly available animals for the very diversity issues we've been talking about. (However while waiting it is always nice to dream in the mean time.)
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

So you agree the problem of inbreeding has more to do with the availablility of individual species and is not inherent to any particular class of breeding, be it hybrid, locality or generic?

""So you agree the problem of inbreeding has more to do with the availability of individual species and is not inherent to any particular class of breeding, be it hybrid, locality or generic?""

The short answer at the most basic level is yes I agree.

The longer answer would be it is that it is a systematic problem of how herpiculture works today as a hobby and something people really need to look at. What we need to do is see more breeder cooperation take place in the hobby and its really going to take some effort to make it right. It also is going to be a little like starting over on the correct foot as we need to get back to our herpetological roots and bring back some of the science into the hobby.

What I think would go a long way in helping fix this is an umbrella type organization that could work with each type of taxa breeding and maintain public records (something like a breeder phone book) on who has what lines available plus would allow breeders to publish breeding notes on what each line contains. This could then be presented along side good information in an educational setting about setting up good breeding programs directed at the preservation of genetic diversity.

I've heard a lot of people that I say this to say oh it needs to be like a registry.. but registries don't actually function at the level that is need. As they are only meant to maintain the pedigree of a single animal and we need to think much broader here.

Basically each breeder needs to be able to tell you the mix of lines that goes into their projects and roughly label their offspring with good track able information. Its too easy now go to a show and buy a snake with only handing the breeder some cash and not knowing anything about the animal. The type of information needs to be easily accessible to a buyer is the mix this animal came from such as this came from program that outcrossed 9 locality animals from x,y,x to 30 animals from whole range lines from these people. We could then look at a single animals own records to figure out a more exact pedigree or look to see what lines went into the whole range projects. By doing this we then have the data needed to work at an actual preservation standard.

More details:
At the ground floor we need locality breeders as these are the breeders that sample the diversity at the most detailed area range. After that we need regional breeders these breeders would mix various locality lines to represent larger ranges such as state ranges. After that we need whole range breeders these are the breeders that will take those state mixes and breed at a purely taxa level. After there would be any hybrid breeding programs I put them last as there is a need to insure that there is no back-flow into the main stock.

This would then allow breeders to be able to freshen their stock by going back through the various levels to bring in newer blood into their projects while maintaining records so that we can backtrack down to the locality level. It is in looking at these problems in a positive light that breeders then can help support each other and then have the ability to systematicly solve this issue as well as other problems that have been recently plaguing herpiculture.

Secondly by doing something like this it gives us one more chance to build back into the hobby some of the honesty and integrity that has been lost. The hobby right now is at a major cross roads we can either move further away from herpitology and end up like so many other pet pedigree types of hobbies or move back towards herpitology and be able to ensure our hobby has a self productive future. Many of us at the (HBA) would like to see this happen but untill we are able to mend some of the bad blood that exists between anti-hybrid breeders and hybrid breeder a solution like this is almost impossible. So we are working backwards starting with hybrid breeders and reaching out trying to mend these problems so that we together can all look at the issues that are important to the hobby in order to solve them.

Grin, at any rate thanks for putting up with me long enough to say all this.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

"""You would get a POS that belongs in the freezer. What we do when breeding captive reptile populations will have effects that will still be in play long after we're gone. All of the different breeds of dogs started from a common ancestor. Is that what we want for captive snake species, each of which is magnificent just as it is?"""

I would think that in this day in age with PETA crawling down the backs of many herp breeders and keepers that anyone with a semblance of forethought would not advocate such a barbaric practice that equivalates to nothing less then animal abuse.

It doesn't matter if the snake is a hybrid or pure species each and everyone of us faces the same problems in this day in age. Everyday our local governments are being petitioned by animal right advocates seeking to ban yet more animals from being kept as pets. They get away with doing this by using people like you saying stuff like you just did as material for their propaganda campaigns. How would you like it if your overdramatized anti-hybrid rhetoric ended up getting yours and every person in your area privilege to own these magnificent animals taken away from from them.

A hybrid animal has every right to be owned, breed and sold provided it is properly represented as a hybrid. All those who deny those rights hurt not only their fellow herpers but the entire herpiculture industry. Answer me this is the face of fanatical animal abuse the face you want to show your government when they are faced with a petition from animal right advocates?

Please do us all a favor a keep comments like this to yourself if you don't want to answer the persons questions point them the hybrid forum or the HBA.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

i bet peta would use that against us, just look at europe, they can only feed f/t.
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jake

my addiction:
1.1? normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1? amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

as a snake lover how could you say that? no snake belongs in the freezer(unless it has deformities so severe it would not survive, but even then the freezer is the wrong method)
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jake

my addiction:
1.1? normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1? amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

I say that because as a person in awe of the natural world and with a deep passion for snakes in particular I believe we have to take a long view. We have a responsibility to maintain the integrity of captive populations and not breed for the coolest looking hybrid. We have no guarantee that those hybrids or their descendants will not be released or escape into the wild. Widespread deliberate captive breeding of reptiles has only been about a 35 year endeavor. We can choose to bemoan or celebrate many of the trends that have developed.

If you were truly in awe of the natural world you would cherish a hybrid for what it is not advocate turning it into a snakesicle. Our cherished and beloved species that we pride ourselves on keeping and breeding became such though evolution. Evolution takes on many forms from isolation and divergence to reticulate hybridization it is how nature works and populates the world with such wondrous varieties of animals.

You can do more herpiculture in a single day of advocating honest buying, selling and keeping good breeding records then you ever will by giving talking points to the animal rights advocates. You can also talk all you want about keeping the integrity of captive populations but with out that advocating; all of your talk and effort in breeding these pure animals is going to be worthless to anyone other then yourself.

No person or organization of any kind has any guarantee that any animal hybrid or pure will not be released or escape into an area that it could be damaging to. This is not an issue that effects just hybrids as many like yourself make it out to be. Did you ever stop to think before saying this what would happen if any species in any area that it is not native to but has a native species or sub-species close enough to mate with gets loose. There is also no guarantee that any wild animal pulled out of its home has not hybridized somewhere in its lineage either.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

There is nothing wrong with people having "pride" in the pure bred lineage of the animals they keep. You are obviously bringing a knofe to the gunfight by pleading your cause on this forum. Your kinda like the people who go door to door peddaling their form of religion to others in hope of converting them. Guess what? The door is being slammed here. You don't see us on the hybrid forum giving you a hard time. So why start problems here.
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Steve W.

You speak of "pride" like being proud makes everything someone can say as being ok. Pride is not an excuse, it's not a all protecting shield useable for diffence of any wrongfull action. I can be proud of my race and not make fun other races. I can be proud of my religion and not bash other religions. I can be proud of my country and not hate other countries. I can be pround of the snakes I keep and breed and not disrespect the work and intrests of others. There is nothing wrong with having some pride in something but when that pride causes people to disslike anything that is different then what they are proud of that is what causes the problems.

So shut the door if you can't deal with it but its not going to make the issue go away. I'm not telling you to like hybrids or to breed them just to have some respect for the people that have an intrest in doing so and the animals that are produced through that interest. Is it really too much to ask that you point the breeder to the hybrid forum rather then giving them bigoted, wrong, or otherwise false information.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Lets get some things straight. I never gave anyone "wrong" information. The way I phrased it may not be to your liking but as it was said in the above post "this is america" and I can phrase it how I see it. Secondly, I take pride in my animals because they are not only kept "pure" but most are also locality specific animals which took many years to put together in most cases. If you want to throw stuff together than do so. I don't really care. It's kinda like when kids start fingerpainting and mixing colors to see what colors you get when it dries. Again have fun. I've been amused. LOL
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Steve W.

The wrong information is in calling it a mutt I'm not going to ague about it because anyone can look at the post and still see it. If you said it in jest fine, but you should of said so J/K is easy enough to type is it not.

Your right this is america and for the most part you can call it how you see it all I'm saying is have some respect when doing it. You mention pride over and over again thats fine but think about other peoples pride when you post too. Each type of hybrid has a name use them.

If you want to voice your concerns about hybrids do it honestly don't hate on hybrids because you fear them contaminating your locality animals. Tell the person asking with some dignity and respect that if you breed these two animals that it presents x,y,z problems and in order to keep these problems from happening they need to do a,b,c. Again it presents a thoughtfull and possitive way about going about it.

In the end if you want to call them a name to express your disaprovel try something like pet only stock or something a long that line. There are too many possitive ways that both hybrid breeders and pure breeders can work together to keep herpiculture moving forward to dwell in the negative side of this issue.

BTW even though you probably said this in jest its a missconception that hybrid breeders just throw things together animals a few might out of curiosity do random test breedings as many crosses have yet to be tried. However at(HBA)we ask people to look at the total morphology of the animals first and remember to breed with a goal. We are looking long term at these breedings and want to preserve the trust of our fellow breeders that work both with pure and hybrid animals.

Any way glad you were amused by all of this.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

I almost fell asleep though reading through all the gobble-de- gook and stuff. Folks are going to do what folks are going to do no matter what we personaly think to the contrary. I didn't think you were being disrespectful just straight forward.

I think the simplicity of what you were saying was lost somewhere. For me the picture of some one coming into a shop to hawk their Bulldog/pitbull/sheperd puppies was pretty clear when you glance around and look at real dashunds, spaniels dobermans etc. Mutts make good pets sometimes. I persoanlly would LOVE to see a herp show where the most intense pure bred Oakatees,blackest and whitest E. Kings etc. could be seen,but that moves away from pure locality...oh well...

I don't know if there are any valid paralells between taggers and folks who like living in nice neighborhoods but it's interesting...one sees what they do as art and expression the other see it as vandalism and blight.

I like Black Milks alot and have heard from credible folks some lines had been crossed with Hondurans in hopes of getting whiter morphs etc.with the public none the wiser.Takes so long to grow up babies (some don't totally darken even if not crossed)it seems such a shame to have that possibility happen after all that feeding and cleaning. Peace y'all..

Hi Bob, hows it going? You have known me for a long time. So you know that I have had my share of crosses go through my hands. At the time it was all Bill Gillingham stock that Watts had aquired. So the cross breed issue is nothing new to me. You also know that I have only bred pure animals (locality when possible) for many years. I have no problem with naturally occuring intergrades but man made creations can cause problems. The problems can be something such as the albino ruthveni/alterna crosses that have been bred for years now. What will this do to the person who happens to catch or hatch out that "first pure bred" albino alterna ? Will he be believed? Will the integrity of animal be questioned? Being nelsoni and sinaloae are now being crossed and sold as "albino sinaloans" how will this impact the pure albino sinaloans? Some thing are just taboo and evolution has seperated animals for some reason. Why is something I can't answer. I'm not God and don't intend to try and play him. This is just my opinion and I'm entitled to it as all of you are.
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Steve W.

Hi Steve,

I'm embarrassed to think how long we've known each other. Just makes me feel REAL old. You've kept just about everything as I remember.You always had that unfair advantage though of getting first picks of whatever new thing came in back then.(grumble,gtrumble...lol)

I think I know you well enough to say to the other folks that I can't picture you ever disrespecting someone in person for having mutts...hybrids/crosses/Frankensnakes/art projects/pimpe d colubrids/snake jumbalaya/ ...whatever...it's just not your thing and you see no point in being politicly correct, and say what you think.

I'm not a fan of designer snakes and can't picture ever being one but that's just my own opinion and theres no reason to apologize for it or for anyone to get offended.Just not a fan.Not trying to be snotty, just don't see the point.I do find myself hoping at times though that the trend just dies out like disco on it's own. Just my opinion,like arm pits,we all have a few and some stink.Happy cage cleaning everyone

Hi Steve. I did not mean with my post above to say you were out of line to say hybrid topics belong on the hybrid forum. I was only stating my opinion that I did not personally mind this thread being posted here. I apologize if I came off sounding like I thought you were out of line.

Hi Arron. In no way did I take offense to anything you said. You also know me a long time and I just say what I feel without trying to sugarcoat anything to be politically correct. There are many ways to say things be it slang, phrases etc.. I just hope that people don't start releasing hybrid (or non-native)snakes into the wild be it on purpose or by accident. Hybrid cars are good for the environment, not hybrid snakes. If anyone doesn't like the way some of us voice our opinions then OH Well. Ignore the post and forget it. What I was getting at was that there's a better place to discuss this issue and it would be best to post it there. Bob, now that the weather is getting nicer we need to meet for lunch or dinner some weekend. Let me know.
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Steve W.

Just got back from doing a little collecting in N.C.Brought back some Pender County E.Kings and some pics. Take care.
Bob

Nice Bob. I'll be in texas at the end of june. You need to make that trip someday. I scenery alone is worth the trip.
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Steve W.

Wow! You're still doing that? After getting my collecting permit from N.C. and road cruising with my friend from down there I can see why you've been doing that for so long.I don't even want to keep a lot of stuff anymore,it's just a real rush to see some of your favorite snakes in their natural haunts and bring pics back without having to clean more cages! You probably remember one of my favorite snakes were E. Kings. N.C. has ALL the variaties. Intense Black/White wide bands,thin bands like N.J.,Black and yellow wide and thin. Even their share of uglys LOL. I have a bunch of CB hatchlings from many different locales coming this season from a nice guy down there, Scott Koonts, from Uwharrie herps. He's a good source if you ever get the bug for Easterns and his prices are half what most breeders are selling their babies for and he has some AWESOME breeders!
Bob

Yes, i'm still making the trip. I've only missed 3-4 trips since 1987. It's like nowhere else i've been.
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Steve W.