Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wondering......

Ive seen some "african lessers" here and there but when you ask for a pic of the Platty that produced them, no pics.

The daddy Platty is unbelievable and I am willing to bet that none of these makes them. Do we even know if they make white snakes. They could be some form of butter. Ralph has ironed out his RDR line pretty much but untill all of these other wild caught or bred animals are line bred to find out what they produce for sure. They aren't Lesser's. The reason why Ralph called them that is because they weren't Daddy Plattys like the father. But he makes the Daddy Platty regularly. Once again I thought he was nuts with this missing gene thing and I benefited directly from it. Ralph obviously knows his stuff and knows his Lessers as we do also. It is "Caveat Empor" ( Buyer beware of the imported stuff.) Believe me wild caught stuff isn't the way to go. If you are importing the next new morph that is great but to buy from facillities that are really clean. I mean you can eat off the floors in our facillities. We have never had an RI infection or mite outbreaks or anything like that. That is why you buy from breeders that onlt breed captive breed and don't import. Plus stuff that comes in from the wild somethimes can be rough. Ask the people that import them. They don't look like lesser's to me in the adds but they need to be line bred to find out what they are.
So all these people that have animals that they have imported that look like the morphs but they haven't made the supers and proved them out. They really don't even know what they are. The phantom really looks alot like a Mojave but they obviously aren't the same snake. So don't be sold a bill of goods people and think you are buying something that you aren't. Like I said it may prove out but I really don't think so. The butter looks more like lessers more than those in the add and they are completely different. That is my take on it..

Joe at MKR
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if there isnt a Platty over in africa, then there arent any lessers either......

you both are 100% correct. There are some people that still think that you get the Platty from breeding 2 lessers. The Platty isn't the homozygous form of the lesser it's a designer that just happened to come from the wild. The chances of the same breeding to occur in the wild that produced the Platty is slim at very best and if there are any more Platty's from the original breeding that produced Ralph's what's the chance of them finding them? Slim at best again. That's my take on it. I do plan on acquiring a lesser produced from a platty in hopefully the next 2-3 years, you can't go wrong with a killer morph like that.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Just to be the devils advocate here but if Platy is a combo (and I agree that seems likely to me) that doesn't make it any less likely that there are other versions of either of the components out there. I think that Platy is a combo of a lesser gene plus a dilute gene in one animal. Sure it was an unlikely natural combo and that makes other African Platys unlikely but there could still be other African lessers and perhaps even other African dilutes. It's just the combo of both genes in one wild bred animal that's extremely unlikely.

I suppose combining the new lines with the dilute gene would be one way to perhaps start to tell if they are the same as one of the old lines or something new. RDR producing platy butter last year by combining butter with dilute seems to support butter being pretty close to lesser but doesn't really prove them being the same either. It will be nice to also find out what a homozygous butter looks like and of course all these breedings would be needed with any new line to even have a good guess if it's the same as any old line.

I think, If I am not mistaken that NOAH in Africa has a group of Platty's. I spoke with him at the daytona show and was told he was producing them. I might be wrong but that is what I was told. Thanks David

offered for sale like the othe stuff. I have yet to see any other Daddy Plattys other than Ralph's. I get hit on import stuff all the time. I haven't pulled the trigger yet because I haven't seen anything worth it for me. It is all the same stuff. cinnys, yellow bellies, few simple recessive stuff because it is harder to make and control for them I am sure unless they are using boxes like us. Something tells me they breed outside and in the ground like they do in the wild. i am betting they just ry and control. It would be real hard with female hets that can't identify all over the place..Believe me if a daddy platty was available someone would have bought it. They were selling Ivories out of Afrika and stung alot of people. They would be trying to do the same thing with the Daddy Platty's if they had them. They knew what they were doing just like now. Beleive me if they were producing daddy plattty's they would be on the market. From what I can gather they reproduced ivories. It is funny that everyone got females. I am sure there were no males produced. At the time we knew nothing about the white snake. Then the snake keepers did it with the ivories. Then the cat was out of the bag on the ivory and it exposed what happened in Afrika. It wasn't cool that is for sure. We all buy projects that don't do great. I wasoffered one of these snake for like 80k 4 years ago. Female same deal. It just didn't sit right with me how they were popping up. I was told it was found in the wild. Just like everything else.. I am glad I didn't pull the trigger. Like alot of other people. But you know what. Sometimes you have to take a shot at it. I am just glad I didn't. But Wes and I have our blunders also. Believe me we all do..

Joe at MKR
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What makes you think no other lines will produce a platty daddy? Ralphs already hatched the butter/platty daddy thing from a different bloodline, so I'm sure we'll see something simialar from some of the other lines.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

The genetic abnormalities appear to be very close in all those animals. If you want a safe bet to a platty, then yes the RDR line is the best one to have, odds wise anyway.

mojave are different. everyone thought that Ralph's phantom was a mojave espcially after we made lucys with Mojaves. They aren't the same and the Supers are different. Ralph could have represented those as Mojaves but he didn't. He did the right thing and worked his project through. As a matter of fact he said they were different and most didn't believe him. Now look what he has in the Phantom. That is why I feel the way I do. People are paying big bucks for snakes. If people are saying they are Lessers than they should come from the RDR lineage in my oppinion and we will see what the buying public feels. You can't assume anything with codoms. There is only one person that has made platty daddy's and we will next year. They aren't the same man or there would be more Daddy Plattys popping out. All I a saying is that people can't be certain on there lessers producing Daddy Plattys unless it came from Ralph's lineage. Show me another one from another lineage that was made. The Daddy Platty is key to it all if you ask me. it is awsome and I don't even have one. Noone does except Ralph.

Joe at MKR
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Ralph did it with a different line so why assume no one else will. My point wasn't whether you should buy one line or the other and if my goal was to make plattys then I'd buy Ralphs line. But to say no other lines will make them is jumping the gun since two unrelated lines already have.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

If you want to make a daddy platty I would only buy a real RDR lesser. That is the only one to date. Like I said everyone knows that they have been importing morphs Afrika and that they are producing. Until i see a Daddy Platty t I feel they aren't lessers. They aren't just finding them in the wild. You know what though. i would buy a captive bred animal from a big breeder any day of a cheaper import. No to mention if we really really don't know what it is. I will take a VPI CLown from Tracy any day over any imported Clown. I know what she does with her animals that is why I bought so much from her. Tracy Barker at VPI is real Queen of ball pythons. Long live the "QUEEN"..

Joe at MKR
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Is the lucy being advertised by the same people a sibling to the lessers? If so then it is reasonable to assume they will also produce blue eyed lucys. But until the new line produces an actual platinum they should probably be refered to as het. lucys. Since "lesser platinum" does infact refer to RDR's specific blood line.

I think what makes this a little more difficult is the naming of Platinums and lessers plattys. From the name one would think the platty is the super form of the lesser which is not the case. Maybe the ones in question should be called lessers and direct descendents of Ralphs platty should be called lessers het platty. Those snakes are identical to the lessers and I'm guessing the lucy is related to them, now whether they carry the gene to make a platty is unknown. I'm sure the naming would have been different if Ralph started with a lucy then hatched lessers, and somewhere down the line hatched out a platinum. Instead he happened to start with a cross as the original animal.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

what to name his project. It is his to name and that is it. Kind of like the "PASTAVE" We could have named the super mojave whatever we wanted but we thought that was appropriate. The people who produce snake name it. If people don't like it they should have made it first. Nerd named his snake bubmble bee and it is a great name. Nothing to do with snakes but awsome name for the morph. I will be the first one to say it. It is funny I was looking at one of my male bubmle bee breeders and at 3 years he is awsome. Still has most of his color. Just thought I would add that..The killer bee is a great name for the super pastel spider. If you really want to name something or have something to do with the name then make it first like everyone else.

Joe at MKR
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I never said that he can't call it what he wants. I said it's a little confusing when he calls his offspring lesser platinums because when line bred they will produce plattys, but at the same time you call yours lesser platinums when there's a chance they'll never produce a platty. It's a little decieving to someone who might not have been around long enough to see the platty lesser lucy thing progress.
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www.ESReptiles.com

a Daddy Platty and that is what every customer is told. Can't say that about any other snake that looks like a lesser becasue noone have been produced.

Joe at MKR
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I'm not debating this fact. I'm just pointing out a hole in the naming situation with lessers. In a few years there might be babies that are identical in appearance to lessers yet they will never produce a platty daddy even though they are RDR blood. Does the first person selling lessers as definitely not carrying the platty gene come up with a new name, do they call them lessers never plattys?
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www.ESReptiles.com

Ralph did it first. He named the sankes lessers from the daddy platty breeding. How do we even know what these imported snakes will make until we make them? Or untill we see the supers? The people should call them whatever they want other than lessers untill they make the daddy platty. Then I think they truly are.

Joe at MKR
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I don't deny RDR’s right to name them anything he wanted but agree that with hind site it's looking like a different naming convention might have been less confusing. In the perfect world we could wait until the genetics and all the different variations are fully understood and then come up with a name but in the real world they need to be called something for the years and years while they are being sold and figured out. He picked as good a name as any with what was known at the time.

Personally I'll be surprised if two lessers from any line ever produce a platty. The theory that seems most probable to me now (since the platy butter RDR produced last summer) is that a single dilute gene turns a lesser into a platy and that this dilute gene is an allele of lesser. Under this theory a lesser is one of the only snakes you can be sure doesn't have that dilute gene needed to make a platy. If a lesser did have that gene it would already be a platy. Under this theory you need either a normal looking dilute carrier (like the normal looking offspring of a platy or some possible het descendent of one) or a platy to supply the dilute gene to team with the lesser gene from the other parent and make a platy.

That's not to say that lesser isn't a very important part of the platy combo (and of course the leucistics are nothing to sneeze at). So far you can only make a platy with a lesser or a butter and we don't know if mojave, phantom, imported "lesser" or any other can make anything like it. It's just that under the dilute allele theory there is nowhere to hide the dilute gene in a lesser. That theory could be wrong of course but everyone else seems to assume that many lessers carry all the genes for platy and that could also be wrong. I don’t see how allowing either theory to go unchecked is any more responsible, either way someone is wrong so we might as well discuss it and get it figured out as quick as possible.

lessers..That is the only way to truly know what you actually have..

Joe at MKR
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You know how I feel on the lesser's with the gene theory about the daddy platty. I agree we need to line breed that is what I was agreeing with you on. But I dig the theorys when I can get through them.. Just kidding Thanks man.

Joe at MKR
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I'm guessing if it's showed itself in the lessers, butters, and phantoms that it will probably be expressed in the mojaves and russo hets as well since they've all proven to be somewhat compatable. So what will these new crosses be called. My whole point in this entire thread is not that the new lines are the same, I could really care less I don't own them and I'm not buying them. It's that this hidden gene needs a name. Every product you buy has a name that's the obvious way to differentiate it from another simialar product. If it's recessive then a lesser platty from a platinum, a lesser platty from a lesser platty, and a lesser platty from maybe a 3rd or 4th generation lesser platty are not the same snake yet there's only one name for them.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

I've been calling it "dilute" but of course it's not up to me to name it. It just seems to act like a dilute rat gene I read about once that lightens up some morphs but doesn't seem to do anything by it's self (actually the rat page wasn't all that clear on exactly how their’s worked).

The platy butter last year without any inbreeding has got me agreeing with an earlier theory (by a poster with the sig “hahaman”) that it might not be recessive. It might be that a single dilute gene paired with a single lesser gene makes a platy. Furthermore, it might even be that the two genes are alleles - different mutations of the same gene. They would at least need to be linked to explain why platy X normal doesn't produce 1/4 platy.

I've seen several mentions of phantom. Did I miss a platy phantom? All I remember new last year was the platy butter.

There were some lighter phantoms produced, from what I remember they were from a phantom to lesser sib.
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www.ESReptiles.com

I must have forgotten. Sounds like they could potentially be platy phantoms (i.e. dilute phantom). It would be a good test of the dilute allele theory if they could be bred to lesser X lesser produced leucistic. Per the theory that cross should produce 50% platy daddy (dilute lesser) and 50% karma (lesser phantom) and nothing else.

Just did a little searching and there's been 3 lesser x lesser breedings without a platty being produced. So if your dilute gene theory is correct there's gonna be a lot of people that have lessers but not the gene to produce plattys. Should be interesting to watch unfold.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

That's not a lot to test it so I'm certainly not saying for sure the allele theory is correct. It's just that most everyone seems so sure that lessers might have a hidden gene and not be even considering this theory that would require that none of them do. It could go either way but hopefully we'll see enough published results this year to figure it out.

Does the fact that Ralph hasn't hatched a platty from a platty x normal breeding put a whole in this theory?

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

Should be hole not whole
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www.ESReptiles.com

The lack of a Platy from Platy X Normal (there we actually do have a good sample size) requires that the dilute and lesser gene either be two different versions of the same gene (alleles) or at least genes closely linked by being near each other on the same chromosome. That way they don't get inherited together. Half the offspring of Platy daddy get his lesser gene and the other half get the dilute gene but none get both or neither. The difference between these two variations of the single dilute gene theory is that if lesser and dilute aren't different versions of the same gene but different versions of different genes that just happen to be neighbors that eventually there might be a crossover to get them both on the same chromosome. Then you would have a platy that produces 50% platy and 50% completely normal when bred to a normal.

The more commonly excepted explanation is that dilute is recessive and that is still possible but it then requires that the butter line also had the dilute gene floating around to make that platy butter last summer (and same for the phantom line if there was a platy phantom produced as well).

There are still lots of possibilities but I haven't yet seen anything that disproves the allele theory, it's still one of the contenders as far as I know.

Now I know why I stay out of these threads, they take up half the day. At least this is a civilized debate unlike most of the other threads that end up being this long.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

Lesser Platinum: direct lineage from Ralph's original

Lesser: import, or unproven line

Hello Gary and MKR...

I have to disagree with you guys a little. I am not sure EXACTLY what "African Lessers" you are referring to. I see the word "ad" so I assume that it is something that is for sale on KS or some other site on the web. I will address this situation from my point of view regarding my "African Lesser"... I know nothing about any animals that came from a different clutch than mine.

First of all... our "platinum whatever" is represented as a "Lesser Platinum ?" on our site where we explain that we don't know exactly what it is or what will come of it. Our animal hatched alongside a pair of Blue-Eyed white snakes that had some pattern and color nearly identical to those produced when a Platinum was crossed with a Phantom. There were also a couple more "Lesser lookers" which did NOT have the same patterning as ours but similar coloration. The remainder of the clutch looked like the mother. She was NOT a normal but NOT a "Mojave looker" I would say that she was even a bit more normal looking than the Phantom animals being cb in the US but not like a "Russo Het". It is these circumstances that made us interested in our "Lesser ?" and we are very happy with him and his appearance.

There is a HUGE problem in this business in which the same product is refered to as several different names thus confusing the public. Why must you think of a "Lesser Platinum" as a product of the "Daddy Platty" why can't you think of a "Daddy Platty" as a designer product of a "Lesser" project that involves a very strange linked gene. Do you have to have a photo of a wild Pastel or Super to call an imported Pastel a Pastel? No you don't! BUT maybe you should have a "?" mark behind it!!

I think that a lot of these animals are cool. I think it is sometimes foolish to run off and name a mutation before it has been proven, hence my "?" mark behind the african animal that I own. Hell... here at the shop his cage even has a "?" mark on it HAHA. If this ad you guys are talking about doesn't say explicitly that the animals are imported or from an unproven line then that is WRONG!

Some people reading this may find that I contradict myself in these matters but that's just because these situations are so CONFUSING! You see an animal and you think... wow that is the same thing! Or maybe you see it and say "Its the same EXCEPT for the spleckles on the ventral... it MUST be DIFFERENT" The bad thing is when the latter happens and someone HAS to name it!

Can a Platinum produce a Mojave? I don't think so but it might happen! Can a Mojave produce a Platinum? Again... I don't think so but it might happen! If a Super Phantom is a gray-purple snake with whitish markings and a Super Mojave is a whitish snake with a little purple ground color is it absurd to think that one could selectively breed a Mojave so dark that its Super form is similar to a Super Phantom?? I don't think so!

Sorry this was so long... I will end with a pic that shows how I feel about collecting all of these morphs... I have Mojaves! I have a Lesser Platinum that came from the RDR line and was produced alongside the SUPER White Blue Eyed snakes! I have a Lesser ? that hatched in Africa alongside the standard Blue Eyed White snakes that happens to have an insane pattern and VERY strange color as compared to its US bred counterparts. When the time is right for me to buy a Phantom, Russo Het, Butter and "Daddy" Platinum... I will! Until then I'm going to have TONS of fun producing animals from all different lines and learning what makes them special!

I DON'T think that any one single mutation is "the only way to go"!

Just my take!

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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

But Ralph imported the daddy platty. Noone else had them or made them. he made lessers with them and he named it. he called them Lessers because they weren't like the father. That is what a Lesser Platinum is. If it stemed from the Daddy Platty and can make them. The only people who can say that they cam make daddy plattys are people that got in early and bought lesser's that are direct decendents fo the Daddy Platty. So as far as I am concerned if it isn't from that lineage than it isn't a lesser or until a daddy platty is proved out. We should make daddy platty s and maybe daddy platty kning pins next year. Daddy Plattys are worth more than the lucys right now. That is the truth and the lucys are going to be the next albino. Everyone will want them. We all need to go really long. This is just my oppinion Sean and I disagree iwth you. I have had over 60 lesser clutches and never produced anything but a lesser and Ralph has had at least 2 to 3 time that. It would have happened. Too many clutches not to. Good luck with your season man.

Joe at MKR
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That every animal that my original lesser produce is a deffinte 50% het for the missing gene. So people are getting 50% possible hets for the missing platty daddy gene and can make daddy plattys if they hit the odds. That is rom everbody whio got in early and bought them originally from Ralph.

Joe at MKR
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...yourself! I'm going to be a stickler here

In the post below you said...

Until a daddy platty is produced it isn't a lesser.

And then just now you said...

That every animal that my original lesser produce is a deffinte 50% het for the missing gene. So people are getting 50% possible hets for the missing platty daddy gene and can make daddy plattys if they hit the odds.

So if I buy a Lesser from you and it doesn't prove out to be a het then I can't call it a Lesser anymore?!?

That is the point that I am driving at. More than likely there will be a group of animals that were produced from the RDR line at some point that won't produce the "Daddy" animals but they WILL produce Blue Eyes. So at that point can you call anything that looks like that and produces whities a Lesser??

You see what I'm thinking?? Also I just want to mention... this is a sticky topic that is based on opinion and belief of 2 individuals that don't agree yet we remain civil!! Not all these conversations are doomed to become nasty and DELETED!

Thanks Joe... My season is going well as I hope your is too!

LATER!
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Maybe one day you can take a (mojavexlesser) white snake x platty and produce plattys, mojaves, lessers and white snakes. That doesnt mean you can call that mojave a lesser. A lesser is a LESSER form of the PLATTY! A mojave, african lesser or anything else should NEVER be called a LESSER!

Lesser Platty is a BRAND NAME as well as far as im concerned and YES we need brand names in this business IMO.

Regardless show me one african lesser that looks like a Lesser off the Platty, show me one! They dont look the same and thats all there is too it.

id would have bought the africans today had I not spent the money on other animals last month. I was kicking myself believe me.

Its very exciting seeing new stuff like that come in.

Gary... it IS exciting to see those guys come in. That is why I got the one I did. It is SO different than ANYTHING else but I believe that it is not right to name it until it develops into a unique project. I will keep my "Lesser Platinum ?" because it is descriptive of the animal, I know what he looks similar to but I can't be sure!

Take care... and GOOD LUCK!!
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

I would have kept calling mine that too! haha

But..........

Thanks and best of luck to you too!!!

This ball game just keep getting better.....

its being captive produced over there in africa. its not wild caught lessers and not wild caught lucy's either.

lineages. I really don't think they will. I think Ralph got a really special snake and really took a shot and it paid off.. I think the Afrika crew let it slip through there fingers and now they are going to try not to let that happen. Ther will be new stuff found. But lets face it people. Look what we can do with all of the crosses and how much they are worth. All the morphs we have are the basic ingredients to make some really killer stuff. It is happening right before our eyes.

Joe at MKR
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With the allele theory this cross would be:

Key
Wm = Mojave version of the white snake gene
Wl = Lesser version of the white snake gene
Wd = Dilute version of the white snake gene

Wm Wl X Wd Wl
=
25% Wl Wl (lesser leucistic)
25% Wl Wd (Platy)
25% Wm Wl (mojave X lesser lecustic)
25% Wm Wd (the as yet unknown platy mojave - who knows if it will look like the lesser version of the platy or not).

But, under this theory, no normals or just lessers or just genetic mojaves (the platy mojave may or may not look like a normal mojave). This is because in this theory they are all different versions of the same gene and since both parents are homozygous for mutant versions of that gene there is no room for any normal copies of that gene.

If it looks like a lesser and it smells like a lesser then in MY OPINION it is a LESSER, and you will probably have the OUT COME that a Lesser would have. TRUE or FALSE? If I am not misstake Ralph has not totally figured the Daddy platty gene out, I am not sure how many times he has reproduced the Daddy platty but I think it has onlt been a few if any at all. Also if I remember correct the Daddy Platty came from NOAH in Africa, and Noah told me he has more of what he sold to Ralph, I was told that at the 2005 breeders Expo, True or Not that is what I was told from NOAH himself. I was told this because I asked NOAH if he is selling any Platinums and this is what he told me. Thanks David

I made a typo. Call me out all you want.. If it doesn't produce a daddy platty then it isn't a lesser. If don't know for sure than I feel they are miosrepresenting there animals. Ralph named it Lesser. Asa we know with Mojhaves and Phantoms. Just becasue they look kind a like doesn't mean they are the same. How about the butter. That says it all. After thinking it through and talking to ther people I would have to say that all these imports are misrepresented. They aren't if they [roduce Daddy Platty's but to my knowledge TRalph is it with the Daddy Platty. These snakes in Afrika. They have been doing this for a while. I am not buying any imported morph when the breeders already bred them into great big animals and refined the gene to make them stronger. Why do you think Clowns are so big. Tracy has some big snakes over there. As a matter of fact everything that I bought from Tracy at VPI is a huge producer with huge clutches. Props out to Tracy..When I was typing I ment to say that people have a shot of getting a possble het from Ralph or us or any other person that has a platty sired by the original male. Unless you have a daddy platty by your import good luck with it man. I wouldn't buy one but that is just my oppinion. To each his own. If all you people don't feel the way I do buy them. But when they don't make Daddy Platty's good luck with them. I would say there is alot more of a chance that they don't make it then they do. Call Ralph Sean and rap with him on it.. Bottom line is this and everyone knows it. It isn't a lesser until it makes a Daddy Platty. The lesser was named by Ralph from the daddy platty. I don't understand what the problem is here. People are trying to say things (not you Sean) that they have Lessers. If it didn't come from RDR's lineage it almost surely won't make a Daddy Platty and wouldn't be a lesser. All of these other people calling these imports lessers are clearly not unless they make daddy plattys period. Let the public decide wehich they will. RDR line lessers are on fire from all of this hype.

Joe at MKR

Joe at MKR
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Or, are you just getting really excited as you type? Your posts are getting harder and harder to read

Dave

I type fast and I have aton of snakes to tke care of with Wes. He is out sick today. Imagine that Ba in business, Cum Luade gradate, and can't type. The story of my life...

Joe at MKR
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ise does not agrees that is ain't NO LiSSER IF IT DON't mack a daddie platty?

Excuse me, I was typing with a my friend's hand.

It can not be called a "Lesser" until it is proven to produce "Daddy Platty? What do the little worms like me do with our "Lessers" until we see if we even have the Daddy gene in any ?

I don't think I understand...

What should we name these unproven snakes? If our animals came from animals produced from Ralph's offspring?

For sale 1.2 "Less than Lesser Platinums" Will trade for unproven yellow bellies.

EVILMORPHGOD

>>I made a typo. Call me out all you want.. If it doesn't produce a daddy platty then it isn't a lesser. If don't know for sure than I feel they are miosrepresenting there animals. Ralph named it Lesser. Asa we know with Mojhaves and Phantoms. Just becasue they look kind a like doesn't mean they are the same. How about the butter. That says it all. After thinking it through and talking to ther people I would have to say that all these imports are misrepresented. They aren't if they [roduce Daddy Platty's but to my knowledge TRalph is it with the Daddy Platty. These snakes in Afrika. They have been doing this for a while. I am not buying any imported morph when the breeders already bred them into great big animals and refined the gene to make them stronger. Why do you think Clowns are so big. Tracy has some big snakes over there. As a matter of fact everything that I bought from Tracy at VPI is a huge producer with huge clutches. Props out to Tracy..When I was typing I ment to say that people have a shot of getting a possble het from Ralph or us or any other person that has a platty sired by the original male. Unless you have a daddy platty by your import good luck with it man. I wouldn't buy one but that is just my oppinion. To each his own. If all you people don't feel the way I do buy them. But when they don't make Daddy Platty's good luck with them. I would say there is alot more of a chance that they don't make it then they do. Call Ralph Sean and rap with him on it.. Bottom line is this and everyone knows it. It isn't a lesser until it makes a Daddy Platty. The lesser was named by Ralph from the daddy platty. I don't understand what the problem is here. People are trying to say things (not you Sean) that they have Lessers. If it didn't come from RDR's lineage it almost surely won't make a Daddy Platty and wouldn't be a lesser. All of these other people calling these imports lessers are clearly not unless they make daddy plattys period. Let the public decide wehich they will. RDR line lessers are on fire from all of this hype.
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>> Joe at MKR
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>> Joe at MKR
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point!....When is the last time this many big boys came to a kingsnake debate.......

Ralphs said his peace already......

I know if I bought one of those and was told it was a lesser and it wasn't. I would have a big problem with the breeder that is for sure. I just got off the email with Ralph. He made the snake, he named it and that is it. We all know why he named it lesser becasue it doesn't look like the daddy. I feel if the snake doesn't make exactly what a lesser from the RDR lineage than it shouldn't be called lesser. Like would be like calling the phantom a mojave before everyone knew it was different. I was the biggest offender of it. If a daddy platty pops out of one of the imports than call it a lesser. I don't see it happening though. But just becasue a snake looks like it I don't think we should call it a lesser if it isn't. I know I am not alone in my thinking. I guess where we disagree is if a snake is a Lesser if it doesn't produce a Daddy Platty. I would say no. Everyone is entitled to thier own oppinion and that is cool. By the way I am using my right hand now..

Joe at MKR
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So if I buy 5 lessers from you and only 2 produce platty daddys what am I suppose to call the ones that don't? Are you going to refund me because you sold me lessers and now according to your own words they're not lessers? What do I advertise babies ,from the 3 males that didn't produce a platty, as?
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www.ESReptiles.com

Do you get your money back when you buy 5 possible het clown females and three prove out. This is about if the RDR lineage is a different snake than the others. Untill a Daddy Platty is made I feel it is different. I am sure we iwll read Ralph's Journal and we will get his take on it..

Joe at MKR
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I've named more morphs than ANYONE!!!!!

"Less than Lessers" has a certain ring a ding ding to it..

and the normal "appearing" littermates... " More Than a Normal".

I'm gonna TEAR the CLASSIFIEDS APART WITH THEM!!!

SATAN

>>So if I buy 5 lessers from you and only 2 produce platty daddys what am I suppose to call the ones that don't? Are you going to refund me because you sold me lessers and now according to your own words they're not lessers? What do I advertise babies ,from the 3 males that didn't produce a platty, as?
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So in 5 years when you have a lesser platinum that you know will never produce anything but lessers and lucys, unless you cross it with other snakes, you still will be using the platinum name? That makes no sense to call a snake something it isn't. A lesser platinum that carries the hidden gene and one that doesn't are different snakes so why are they reffered to as the same?
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www.ESReptiles.com

>>So in 5 years when you have a lesser platinum that you know will never produce anything but lessers and lucys, unless you cross it with other snakes, you still will be using the platinum name? That makes no sense to call a snake something it isn't. A lesser platinum that carries the hidden gene and one that doesn't are different snakes so why are they referred to as the same?

How do you keep an idiot in suspense?

Are we going to now sub divide the Lesser Platinum name?
If we are then, there are people with way too much time on their hands.

Ralph has Daddy Platty
Lessers From Daddy that should in my mind carry that hidden gene...
Then there are Lessers that may carry the gene. I think Ralph gets more for Lessers from Daddy Platty..

The price is the difference.

Most of us are dealing with possible Daddy platty gene carriers.

MORPHDOG
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So if it wasn't a hidden gene it would be ok but since it is it's not. Doesn't this hidden gene need a name of it's own, since it's being crossed into other morphs. If you hatch out a bee crossed with the hidden gene what will you call it "Ralphs hidden gene bee" if so I'm cool with that because it has a name. Then when someone hatches a pinstripe with it they can call it a Ralphs hidden gene pin. Atleast the gene itself will have a name.
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www.ESReptiles.com

If the "hidden" gene dilutes lesser, butter, and perhaps phantom that doesn't necessarily mean it will dilute other mutations that we don't yet have any evidence of being related (i.e. pinstripe or spider). It may be that it only dilutes the white snake group. Sure another morph could carry it just like the normal looking siblings from platy X normal apparently do but it might remain completely hidden in those lines even if inbred to become homozygous dilute.

Shouldn't there be a name for this hidden gene though, rather then just reffering to it as the hidden gene?

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

I call it dilute after a gene I read about in rats but it's not up to me to name it, it's just easier to talk about with a name.

Agreed.

Even if some lessers can carry the hidden gene (i.e. if the allele theory is wrong) it's the lesser mutant gene that makes them a lesser, it doesn't matter what other genes they have.

For example, a het albino is still a het albino even if at also happens to be het axanthic. There is a name for that combo (double het snow) but everyone should still understand that it's still very much a het albino, it just happens to be more than JUST a het albino. In the same way even Platy is still very much a lesser. A Platy apparently has one copy of the lesser gene just like any lesser (that’s why Platy X normal produces 50% lessers). It just also happens to have something else to make it a Platy.

But this argument does get a little sticky. If Platy is also a lesser (plus something else) is an albino also a het albino (plus another het albino)? The definition of het (having an unmatched pair of genes) doesn't really let us say that. So while I think that few would call a lesser leucistic a lesser, is it still ok to call a Platy a lesser plus something if it turns out that that something (dilute?) is a different version of the same gene?

This brings up another ramification of the white snake/platy allele group theory - if platy is a combo of two mutant alleles (different mutant versions of the same gene) it would not be possible for them to breed true. That is, there would never be a line of platy where platy X platy would only produce platy. Again, just a theory but something to consider:

Wd = Dilute mutant version of white snake gene
Wl = Lesser mutant version of white snake gene

Wd Wl = Platy

Wd Wl X Wd Wl
=
25% Wl Wl (lesser line leucistic)
50% Wl Wd (Platy)
25% Wd Wd (apperently either normal looking or homozygous lethal as no odd looking offspring reported from many breedings of normal looking platy offspring (Wd w X Wd w, where "w" is the normal version of the white snake gene).

In order for something to breed true it needs to be homozygous for a single version of a gene and with the allele theory the platy is a combo – sort of a double het (I forget what the term is for two mutant alleles of the same gene but “double het” isn’t technically correct – that really only applies to two gene locations each paired with the normal version of their respective genes).

I hear ya brotha!!
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gail

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SBF

I was not actually speaking of "those" animals, I was just wondering if you were saying ALL Lessers should be changed to "Less Thans".

I am less than impressed with the "those" that got pushed off the cliff......

It hurts when it is your project that gets jabbed. The only way we can protect a project is to resort to a cartoon character like persona and scream MINE, MINE, MIIIINNNEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Hopefully the hungry vortex will eat them up and it will be a "remember when" type of thing. Enough of that, want to FIGHT?

EVILMORPH G O D

>>I know if I bought one of those and was told it was a lesser and it wasn't. I would have a big problem with the breeder that is for sure. I just got off the email with Ralph. He made the snake, he named it and that is it. We all know why he named it lesser becasue it doesn't look like the daddy. I feel if the snake doesn't make exactly what a lesser from the RDR lineage than it shouldn't be called lesser. Like would be like calling the phantom a mojave before everyone knew it was different. I was the biggest offender of it. If a daddy platty pops out of one of the imports than call it a lesser. I don't see it happening though. But just becasue a snake looks like it I don't think we should call it a lesser if it isn't. I know I am not alone in my thinking. I guess where we disagree is if a snake is a Lesser if it doesn't produce a Daddy Platty. I would say no. Everyone is entitled to thier own oppinion and that is cool. By the way I am using my right hand now..
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>> Joe at MKR
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"wanna fight" Thats what im talking about!

Yes, Yes I do...but we are on the same side with this arguement so if I win you have to give me a Banana. If I lose Ill give you this one...

Now that was messed up! LOL Those are fighting words.
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www.ESReptiles.com

>>"wanna fight" Thats what im talking about!
>>
>>Yes, Yes I do...but we are on the same side with this arguement so if I win you have to give me a Banana. If I lose Ill give you this one...
>>
>>I don't have BANANANANANANANSSSSSSS

ummm......
CORAL GLOWS [bleep]!!!!

I don't care about the argument..... I just want to CILL CILL CILL

My LANDLORD!
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SANTA
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www.newenglandreptile.com

And Ill take a coral glow too!

Are you the devil? If so i hear you play a wicked tune.Stay in the shadows b/c he is watching
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billy jean king
BugBusters

>>Are you the devil? If so i hear you play a wicked tune.Stay in the shadows b/c he is watching
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>>billy jean king
>>BugBusters

Yes, I am HE. I am waiting to see WHO ruins the market so I can Rightfully EAT THEIR SOULS!

CROTALUS is the Band

EVILMORPHGOD
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www.newenglandreptile.com

I am just stating the simple fact that the bottom line is untill this imported stuff is proved out and line bred. We don't know with out a shadow of a doubt what it will truly make. Especially with the way things are going for the codoms. You may be right about that guys snake being a fire. But untill it makes one I can't take anything for granted with these codoms. I don't think anyone can. They are very unpredictable. But would you have thought that the butter wasn't like the platty with the white snake? I sure thought it was or really close to it. I thought it was almost certain that it would make a white snake. A ton of stuff has happened with the codoms in the past few years and alot right at your facillity. As far as these new "fires" I remember seeing one of these supposebly "new fires" for sale for big bucks from this person on the classifieds last season. What would happen if it didn't make a white snake and someone bought it for what he was asking? That is only point I am trying to make. I think it would be a really bad thing that is for sure.

Joe at MKR
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Joe/Wes, there have been several new lines of "Fires" for sale on the classifieds, some imports, some have proven genetic, but just not produced a white snake. I had my EmberBall 100% Het Hypo female for sale on the classifieds a few months ago, but I NEVER called her a Fire. I said she had all of the traits of a Fire, at least all of the traits I had been told to look for, but I never called her a Fire, and was selling her as an EmberBall!,a new morph or possible Fire. I was as upfront in my ads as I could have been.

What do you think the super is? I am not down on you or your snake. Prove it and then sell it for big bucks. That is all I am saying. The two usually go hand in hand. We pay and will continue to pay big bucks for animals that are already proven by the breeders that imported them. Then we build our clolonies and sell some. They have to be proven first. That is why the breeder takes the risk, imports it, cares for it, line breeds it to figure out what it is and then goes from there. That is all I am trying to say man.

Joe at MKR
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I realize I need to prove it out with a white snake to call it a Fire, but the Ember has been proven genetic, so I can sell it as a genetic morph, and was very clear that I am still unsure as to the genetics involved. If someone had purchased the female Ember from me, prior to accepting any cash, they would have received an email similar to this:.....The EmberBall has been proven genetic, by breeding a Hypo male to the original EmberBall adult female. Two genetic morphs were produced from this breeding, looking very much like a Fire Ball. Since no Ember x Ember breeding has been attempted to date, no white snake, or Super form has been produced...

I was not trying to fool anyone into buying an Ember and thinking it was a white snake producing Fire, but was selling the Ember as a genetic morph, that might be a Fire, or something new.

Pics, Mojave cross and Mojave, both poss het Hypos, Ember het Hypo pre first shed, Ember Het Hypo post first shed.

I don't know if you agree with it and that is fine. To each his own. It makes alot of sense to me. I just think that snakes that appear to look like other snakes should be proven out especially if it is for big bucks. That is just my oppinion though. I am sure there is alot people that disagree with me. Whatever..Wes is sick and I am out for a couple days with the snakes on my own.. Look out now I am having alot of fun.. Later

Joe at MKR
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Joe, just turn the cage cleaning into a drinking game....

I gave up drinking about 5 years ago. I was having too much fun and waking up with too many headaches. I still have my fun though don't you worry.. I am no goody twoshoes that is for sure..

Joe at MKR
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Did I miss the assumed homozygous butter too? If it's been produced was it not a white snake? Or are you thinking of RDR's platty butter (or daddy butter or butter platty, I don't remember what he called it). I'm thinking that’s dilute plus butter just like platy is dilute plus lesser. But I'm still wanting to know what homozygous butter or even butter lesser is so let me know if I missed that please.

Boy, was I wrong! They sure looked like it at the beginning though. I'm always thankful for these projects being in the hands of competent breeders from the get-go. That way it can be done properly.

The way I remember it there was even a brief time that both RDR and TSK thought the phantom was a mojave. Nothing wrong with discussing opinions and coming to a consensus as more information is available. I don't think it was really settled until the apparent homozygous phantoms where produced last summer and some might say it will still not be proven until they are bred enough to prove they really are homozygous phantoms (seems very very likely to me but the more proof the better).

Wasnt the original "phantom" breed with lesser? isnt it possible that this "dilute" gene has something to do woth the super phantom. I went to Ralphs house and saw his animals a little while after the super was produced and i can remember talk about the lesser gene being in the phantom. Correct me if im wrong but this is what i thought. If so then couldnt the esser be at play in the super phantom?
Kim

For some reason I can never seem to remember what all RDR produced with the phantom project last year but I looked it up ... again.

Look at his 05 clutch 44 post. It looks like the "Phantom Forty Four" may well be the dilute phantom (sort of a Platy Phantom) just like the original Platy is a dilute lesser and he also produced a dilute butter last year too.

The notation might go something like this:

The different versions of this gene (under the allele theory)

w = normal version of the white snake gene
wd = dilute version of the white snake gene
Wl = lesser version of the white snake gene
Wp = phantom version of the white snake gene
Wm = mojave version of the white snake gene
Wr = Vin Russo version of the white snake gene
Wb = butter version of the white snake gene

The genotypes and corresponding phenotypes seen so far

Wl w = lesser
Wm w = mojave
Wp w = phantom
Wv w = Vin Russo high lemon yellow
Wb w = butter
wd w = normal sibling offspring of platy (het dilute)
Wl wd = Platy daddy (dilute lesser)
Wp wd = Phantom 44 (dilute phantom)
Wb wd = Platy butter (dilute butter)
Wl Wl = lesser leucistic (homozygous lesser)
Wm Wm = super mojave (homozygous mojave)
Wp Wp = super phantom (homozygous phantom)
Wv Wv = white diamond (homozygous Russo)
Wl Wp = karma (lesser phantom)
Wl Wm = lesser mojave
Wm Wr = mojave Russo

possible combos that I haven't seen yet

Wb Wb = homozygous butter (will it be white?)
wd wd = homozygous dilute (statistically some should have been produced but apparently either aren't possible or look pretty much normal just like the normal sib het dilute parents that should have produced them)
Wm wd = dilute mojave
Wv wd = dilute Russo
Wb Wl = butter lesser
Wb Wv = butter Russo
Wb Wm = butter mojave
Wb Wp = butter phantom
Wl Wv = lesser Russo
Wv Wp = Russo phantom
Wp Wm = phantom mojave

There are probably some other combos I've missed and the newest African genes could be new genes in this group as could be whatever combined with mojave to make the Crystal ball.

I really like forums where I can edit out my many mistakes

Replace any Wv in the above with Wr for the Vin Russo gene.

Less than Lesser?? Jeremy Stone called and said I should call mine a "I can't believe its not a butter"

I Can't Believe its not a Butter Ball

Less than Lesser Ball

So many choices... so few LeRoy's You think Fabio is available to pose for my reptiles ad and KS banners?!?

Thanks for the laughs Kevin!
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

I can't believe its not a BUTTER!!

The classifieds will never look the same!

SATAN HIMSELF

>>Less than Lesser?? Jeremy Stone called and said I should call mine a "I can't believe its not a butter"
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>>I Can't Believe its not a Butter Ball
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>>Less than Lesser Ball
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>>So many choices... so few LeRoy's You think Fabio is available to pose for my reptiles ad and KS banners?!?
>>
>>Thanks for the laughs Kevin!
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>>Sean Bradley
>>Owner : EbN
>> www.ExoticsByNature.com
>> www.BallPythonMorphs.com
>>www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
>> www.CornSnakeMorphs.com
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www.newenglandreptile.com

yup ... what he said.
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gail

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SBF

In one of your theories dont you state that if your "dilute" gene was passed from the "platty daddy" that the lessers would not recieve it? If this theory is true then no lesser from RDR line will produce a Platty daddy, only the normal siblings breed back to the original platty daddy could replicate its self and unock this gene. Isnt that how RDR reproduced his? from the original platty daddy to a normal offspring. I could be way off but this is how i understand it. Please correct me if im wrong. Your theories are great to think over. awesome posts. I was just curious b/c if the above was by chance correct then by Joe stating "if it dosent produce a platty daddy it cant be called a lesser", no lesser could "in theory " then be called a lesser.
Kim

In that theory the lessers have only half of what's needed to produce the platty. The normals from the platty daddy are the other half. So to produce a platty you would need to breed a lesser to a normal appearing offspring of the Platty. Which would mean the only person who can produce plattys is Ralph unless he's sold some of the normal offspring from the original Platty. Think of it like a bumblebee, you'll never get one with just a spider you need both genes. As far as I know the platty is the only designer morph ever imported so I think this, along with the fact that the second gene at work isn't visible without another gene to activate it is what makes it so confusing. Plus us ball people are impatient which leads to these threads of speculation. After this breeding season a lot more should be known since there should be several more clutches of lesser x lesser.

Did I get it right Randy?

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

So Ralph breed his lesser to a normal sib to throw the platty? i thought he breed it stright to the org. platty. I was at his house and saw the platty babies and the lesser babies but i thought he produced them a different way. He has so many animals that are het for this or sibs to that it definetly gets confussing after awhile. I understand how genetics work ive been breeding balls for years i am just trying to completley understand Randys theories, i find them very interesting. Thanks for the clear up though.
Kim

Eric, you have it down! I love the bumblebee analogy. And the dilute gene being invisible by it's self but sort of dominant with lesser/butter/phantom under this theory does make it extra difficult.

Morphed, the theory is basically that a single dilute gene combines with a single lesser, butter, or phantom (and perhaps other) genes from this group to make the respective dilute or "Platy" versions. The nomenclature is a bit messed up and I would vote for dilute lesser, dilute butter, and dilute phantom over Platy, Platy butter, and 44 respectively since it's easier to see the relationships (if this theory is even right).

The twist is that the dilute gene seems to at least be linked to the other white snake genes/versions by being on the same chromosome. Otherwise platy daddy could produce platy with normals just like bumblebee can produce eggs that are 25% chance bumblebee with normal. It might even turn out that dilute and the others are all different versions of the same gene.

If lesser and dilute are different versions of the same gene, since you can't get two copies of the same gene from the same parent a Platy would need to get the lesser version from one parent and the dilute version from the other parent. If they aren't alleles but just neighbors on the same chromosome it might eventually happen that a platy would give both to the same offspring but it would require a rare crossover that hasn't happened yet in all the platy X normal breedings.

So, you could make Platy from lots and lots of combinations as long as the dilute gene was on at least one side and the lesser gene was on the opposite side/parent of a dilute gene. A few of these combinations are:

Platy X Platy (both parents have both the lesser and dilute gene so it works out to = 50% chance of getting one from each to produce Platy - also 25% chance homozygous lesser and 25% chance homozygous dilute).

Platy X lesser = 25% chance Platy, 25% chance normal looking het dilute, 25% chance homozygous lesser, 25% chance lesser)

het dilute (could be a "normal sibling" or one of it's possible het decedents that hit) X lesser = 25% chance Platy, 25% chance normal looking het dilute, 25% chance lesser, 25% chance normal

homozygous dilute (might be normal looking) X homozygous lesser = 100% Platy.

"More than likely there will be a group of animals that were produced from the RDR line at some point that won't produce the "Daddy" animals but they WILL produce Blue Eyes."

Actually there is even a theory (only two of us have ever seemed to think it's likely but it's not a democracy that determines how it will really turn out to work) that no lesser X lesser can produce platy. Under this theory any lesser, no matter how removed, could produce a platy as long as the other side provided the dilute gene which appears to be invisible by it’s self.

I would say that lesser is its own gene and any lesser from the original lesser (the Platy Daddy is the original lesser, he just happened to also have what it takes to be a Platy – just like a snow is no less a genetic albino because it’s also axanthic) is a lesser. Although I think there is a relation between the dilute gene that combines with lesser to be a platy and lesser it’s self I believe they are separate and lesser is it's own self perpetuating morph.

Of course the original question is if there are any other imported lines that just happen to be the lesser morph but I don't think platy has anything directly to do with that. If it happened to be the same single mutation that makes a lesser it's a lesser. The problem is that you may or may not ever be able to know if it's the exact same mutation. Even with breeding trials, but of course if the trials show that it behaves different (perhaps a different homozygous/super or a different combination with dilute producing a different sort of platy) it probably is different.

I do see your point. However the name "lesser platty" is given to snakes from the line of the OG Platty. To me, if the snake isnt 100% for sure a decendent of the OG Platty then it should be called something else. To me, the african lessers look just as much like a lesser from the platty as mojaves do. You can clearly see the difference. Granted it appears the same thing is going on with the genetics TO A POINT. They still arent the same snake.

Until a daddy platty is produced it isn't a lesser. That is why ralph called them Lessers. They didn't look like the father but make them. The key is make the daddy platty..

Joe at MKR
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>>Until a daddy platty is produced it isn't a lesser. That is why ralph called them Lessers. They didn't look like the father but make them. The key is make the daddy platty..
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>> Joe at MKR

So if I buy, let's say a Happy Meal from McSuck...and it contains a cheesburger that had been left out in the hot sand for a day and was covered with ants..and the shake was actually blended rotted herring and buttermilk..and the coke was colored rat pee.....

its its.....not a Happy Meal?

After I beat the manager to near death it dawned on me.... it may not have made me very happy but there is some twisted freak out there that would still find glee in their Happy meal... it was still a Happy Meal no matter what I called it.... McSuck NAMED IT!!!!

I would have to invent my own version and call it the "Unhappy Meal".... You'd really enjoy my drive through...as you wait for your filthy treat we mug you. Profits would be HUGE!

SATAN
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I would also like to know who SAID a LESSER has to PRODUCE a Daddy Platty in Order to be a LESSER...NO ONE....If I REMEMBER Correct Ralph stated in his Journal that he named the LESSER PLATINUM because it looked LESS that the father(Daddy Platinum) Thus being a Lesser form of the platinum thus Lesser platinum. I didn't see where the name of the snake HAS to produce a Daddy Platty. We are just assumimg that it will, Maybe he should have called them Daddy Platty Sons/Daughters.... I prefer the name lessers but see like everyone is getting all upset because other people have Balls that look like Lessers But didn't come from Ralph and the are calling them lesser, In my opinion Lessers are Lessers no matter if the produce the Daddy platty or what, if the both make LUCY's then I would say they are the same. The Daddy platty GENE could have come from some totally unknown animal that may never be found, Kinda like the Ringers, You know they(ringers) are just a random pop up type of thing. Just maybe the Daddy platty is along the same line. Just my take on this subject. Thanks David
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WRONG... The only time I was WRONG is when I thought I was WRONG but I was really RIGHT.....LOL...LOL...LOL

I went to Ralphs site and did a little looking at his Platinum Page and look what I found...It came right off Ralphs page.

Here is the following stuff...Very Interesting

It's 05 now and I'm gettin' some more stuff figured out............the Blue Eyed Lucy from breeding a Phantom x Lesser is just that..........a "Phantom Lesser".........a "Phantom Lesser Lucy"..........the Blue Eyed Lucy from breeding Platty x Lesser and Lesser x Lesser is a "Super Lesser", the Super Lesser being the whitest of all the "white snakes" produced thus far ( Super Lesser )............Platties are still only being produced from breeding a Lesser that is sired by Platty Daddy to a normal looking that is sired by Platty Daddy....or Platty Daddy x normal sib or Lesser.

My question to anyone is If you Read the last Line it says that the ONLY way to PRODUCE the platty Daddy is By USEING the Platty Daddy to Offspring( meaning both NORMAL SIBs and the LESSERS) If that is the CASE Then the fact that a Platty Daddy lesser carries the SAME GENE that makes the Platty Daddy as a NORMAL SIBLING of the PLATTY DADDY. I still believe that if you have to snakes that look the SAME, They are the same, When I say THE SAME I mean THE SAME and not almost the same BUT THE SAME. If they looked like lessers then I would call them lessers..Bottom line. Now if someone were looking for a lesser with the Platty daddy gene then of course you would have to have a lesser "Poss Het Platty Daddy" behind that unless it IS PROVEN that not all lessers are the same then we will have to got back and change something but until it is PROVEN that the LESSERS that come from anyone other that RALPH will NOT produce the Platty Daddy they should be called the same...LESSERs...Looks LESSER smells LESSER probably is a LESSER. Just my Take on things. Just look at the Yellow Bellies...They have several Different looks but yet they all still PRODUCE IVORY's. Cannot wait until the 2006 season gets really going then maybe we will see what the REAL DEAL IS. See ya
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WRONG... The only time I was WRONG is when I thought I was WRONG but I was really RIGHT.....LOL...LOL...LOL

One theory on how to produce a Platy goes like this:

A Platy has two mutated versions (and hence no normal versions) of a gene I'll call the white snake gene.

Wl = the lesser mutated version (really should be written with a subscript "l", there are apparently so many different versions of the white snake gene that we need two letters to tell them apart but “Wl” is meant to show a single gene version and not a pair of genes)
wd = the dilute mutated version (same here, in this notation should use a subscript "d" but I don’t think kingsnake supports html to make it)
w = the normal version (maybe could be w’ in some other notation)

In this theory these are three different versions of the same gene (alleles). One way to denote this relationship (all the same gene) is to use variations of the same letter for all of them - "w". This is fundamentally different from combinations of mutations of different genes as in snow balls where we use different letters for the two genes and the double hets each also have a normal copy of both of the two genes (i.e. a normal copy of the albino gene matched with the albino mutant one and a normal copy of the axanthic gene matched with the axanthic mutant copy).

The Platy is (in this theory) Wl wd. Notice that there are only two copies of the same gene (one from each parent – Wl from a parent having the lesser gene and wd from a parent having the dilute gene) so there is no room for the normal w version of this gene in a Platy.

When you breed Platy X normal (w w) you get
50% Wl w (lesser)
50% wd w (normal sibling)

Notice that the normal siblings are basically het for the dilute gene. In this theory this gene by it's self doesn't appear to have any visible effect. However, when combined with lesser it dilutes the pigment of the lesser to make a platy.

Because the Platy can't give two copies of the same gene to the same offspring it can't give both the lesser version (Wl) and the dilute version (wd) but only one or the other to each baby. The normal will give each baby the normal version - w. So, each baby has a 50/50 chance of being either a lesser or a normal looking het dilute (aka “normal sib”). Even if the pairing was such that dilute could come from the other side (i.e. if the "normal" mom where really a het dilute) you still couldn't have a lesser that carried the dilute gene because if it did it would look like a Platy and not a lesser. Basically the dilute gene is only hidden by the normal version w (and maybe also with another wd) and it shows with other mutant versions like Wl.

So, in order to produce a Platy (under this theory) you would need to get the lesser gene from one parent and the dilute gene from the other. One way to do that is lesser X normal sib. Another would be Platy X lesser or even Platy X Platy but it could not be done lesser X lesser since neither would have the dilute version to give. Also, leucistic X lesser could not produce platy because the leucistic already has two other copies of the W gene and doesn't have room for a wd and as mentioned we know the lesser's other copy is normal because it can't hide a dilute version. If lesser X lesser or leucistic X lesser does ever produce a Platy then this theory will be disproved.

Sean, can I call this a Fire, in your opinion?

Pics are: EmberBall at 700 grams, adult female EmberBall, adult male sire, a Hypo, and his offspring the EmberBall.

I have an adult female matriarch that looks identical to a Fire, the babies look identical to a Fire, but I have not proven them with a white snake. Your Lesser was born along side of a white snake, which would make a pretty good arguement for your side, but if it was born in Africa, how do you REALLY know the truth?

Nice animals by the way, very nice variation....

... a "Fire ?" HAHA Actually that is what I would have called it. You hatched it so you can name it. If there is one "code" I believe in that is IT!

Here is the scenario... you're somewhat damned either way. With a situation like you had you could do two things...

Option 1 You name the snake something new... some people will like it some won't! It's yours so who cares what they think! Some people will say that you picked a name so you could get more attention! Trying to make a name... blah blah blah

Option 2 You name the snake based on what it looks like is currently proven, in this case Fire... some people will like it some won't! It's yours so who cares what they think! Some people will say that you named it the same as a morph that is getting a lot of play, getting advertised everywhere so you "stole someones thunder" or even worse someone will charge you with a copyright infringment or trademark violation.

You hatched it so you name it. If Ember Ball makes you happy then I think that's great. After all... why keep and breed animals... its all just hard work in the end anyway. Because you ENJOY it that's why!! I'm guessing that all these people that jumped into reptile breeding to make a buck or whatever are finding out just how much dedication it takes to keep, breed, and sell snakes. Some of these people will drop out. Some will hang around to ruin the party for those who love to dance!

Also... what you said about trusting the African information... can you trust it because it hatched in the US? If you're not the one breeding, pulling eggs, cutting eggs, and setting up the babies... do you REALLY know?!? I'm not accusing ANYONE but I'm just saying... trust is tough in ANY business.

I like your project! I dig the Fires too! If you prove that it is NOT a fire... I'm more interested because it is something new and I want EVERYTHING!

Good luck with everything Dave... please keep us posted!
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Now it is my turn.. The whole thing with the fireball is that it was supposed to make an all white snake with black eyes. NOT!! And the hets are fairly normal looking with a small spot on there head. I have been over to Bob Clark's facillity and have seen and held them in my hands. Just because they look alike doesn't mean they are. Need the super to prove it. People sold hets for big money telling people that they would get an all whit e snake which obviously insn't happening. Still a nice snake but not all white. How the hell can people ask big money for an animal that they haven't proved out and say well it looks and probaly is one. Until one is made it is all smoke and mirrors period end of story.. This isn't towards you either Sean. You aren't trying to pass your snake off for something that it might not be. That is cool but this different. I am just making a statement on what I have been seeing in the market. I know if I bought the snake for big money and it wasn't what it was represented there would be big problems believe me. To freak out and respond is stupid. We are dealing with facts and proof. If a snake is said to be something than it better produce exactly what it is said to be or the person selling the animal wioll be a flash in the pan you can count on that. Your snake will be a fire when it makes a super fire. In my oppinion it shouldn't be sold as one or close to one for big money until it is proven period. That is just my oppinion and I am throwing my hat in ring.. But if someone comes along and and drops like a tree in your lap.. God bless you but don't hold your breath.

Joe at MKR
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I asked Sean's opinion because I consider EBN "Big breeders," and since we were on a similar topic, thought I would ask. I thank you for your opinion, and will basically try to prove it with a white snake next year....I really doubt it will be proven this year, but my fingers are crossed. I named them Embers to keep the Fire theme, because I think they are Fires. That being said, I honestly hope they are something completely different and new. I also think my Mojave cross female and Emberball female will produce the same morph, and that should be proven this year for sure. I will not call them Fires or advertise them as Fires unless they are proven with a white snake. That being said, I find it funny that a Pastel is a Pastel, but a Fire, no, you have to prove it to be a Fire. What about Yellow Bellies? I understand why, especially with the money involved in Fires vs. Pastels, but I still think it is kind of funny that the breeders who do have actual Fires all said the exact same thing when I emailed them questions and pics of the Embers, "maybe, but prove it out." Basically what I hear is "Yeah it is, hell yeah, but I do not want to compete with your line, so take your sweet time proving it out will ya." I do want to thank Kevin from NERD, because he was the first one to say hey, probably a Co Dom animal, definately not a Hypo. That is what got me looking into what it could be.....I am hoping for a bright yellow super, and NERD will get the first pics Sean, you will get an email shortly after I send one to Kevin

Pics are: Mojave cross female, Ember female, and Ember baby and normal.

Everyone can think what they want. The proof is in the breedings period. if you have something that you think is the same of another lineage animal then it needs to be line breed and the results compared. This science man. We areselling big ticket animals and have to represent them properly period. If it is a lesser it better produce everything that an RDR lesser does or it isn't. Then watch what happens to the guy that sold it. He or she will be ruined period in this business for good.

Joe at MKR
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So shouldn't the babies you and anyone else besides Ralph, sell be called possible lesser platinums? The hidden gene is recessive right so you don't know if your babies carry the gene or not and they might not produce what babies from Ralph produce.
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www.ESReptiles.com

They are lessers since they are from the original daddy platty period but they are possible het for his awsome looks compareed to one of his "lesser" offspring. I am going to tell you exactly what I told Sean. Give Ralph a call on it. He is the real father of the project. I am sure he will bend your as I will probably alot more. You have a shot at making a daddy platty from getting any lesser from the rdr lineage. You can't say that about any other lineage. Infact one hasn't even been produced and come on man. It is getting stupid. Ralph named it. It came from the daddy platty. If it doesn't make exactly what the lessers make from the daddy platty then it isn't a lesser period. I am OUT!!

Joe at MKR
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The african lessers dont look like RDR lesser lines, period. Mojaves look just as much like lessers as the african lessers do. We've all seen older mojaves that looked alot more like lessers from RDR line than they did mojaves. BUT YOU CAN STILL SEE A BIG DIFFERENCE and they arent the same snake because they look kind of the same.

Even novice and look and say its a different snake and thats the bottom line.

The FURTHER you get away from Ralph's ORIGINAL Platty Daddy x normal breeding, the LESS chance you have of having that hiddent gene, IF it is recessive. Like if you have a 100% het Pied male, keep the babies, breed a 50% het male, etc etc etc. You chances are DECREASING in getting that hidden gene. That is, IF it is single recessive.

like Ralph and then when you breed that everything is het for the missing gene. I was out to dinner this post is getting good..

Joe at MKR
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If dilute is an allele of lesser then no lesser phenotypes have the hidden gene. To make a platy you would need to pair the lesser gene from one parent with the dilute gene from a normal sib offspring of a platy or an actual platy on the other side. That is per the allele theory.

You may well be right about the hidden/dilute gene that turns a lesser into a platy being recessive but I wouldn't start selling lesser offspring of platy as for sure het for platy, at least not after last summer’s platy butter. I’m not pointing any fingers, I would have done it myself before then as I didn't come up with the dilute allele theory or even think too much about it until then but now it needs to be considered as a possibility.

Someone read the post and actually took the time to comprehend the point I was trying to make. Thanks Jeff

Question for you Joe

Say I have a lesser platty that doesn't have the hidden gene and I know this through years of trying to hit it. Now everytime I put one of offspring up for sale it'll have to read something like the following.

1.0 Lesser Platinum
Weight: 250g
Hatch Date:6-12-09
Info: This animal originates from the RDR line of lesser plattys but does not carry the hidden gene to make a Platinum. Therfore all you'll ever make from it is more lesser plattys and lucys but no Plattys.

$???????

There's gotta be a more clear cut way. I understand what the lessers are along with most everyone else but what about in 15 years when they're more common and not talked about all the time. There should be something in the name that differentiates lessers that carry the gene and ones that don't or are 50% possible carriers. I know I don't like to open an ad that says 2005 Het Piebalds to find out there possible hets.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

was probably made from a het or a possible het for the missing gene and missed. It is still from the RDR lineage from the daddy platty. If you had a daddy platty breeding then everything would be het like Ralph. I feel if it didn't come from the RDR lineage and doesn't have shot at making the daddy platty then it isn't shouldn't be called a Lesser. Call Ralph and see what he thinks.. When you bought yours I am sure you knew it was a possible het for the missing gene. I know how it feels when possible hets don't prove out but many due as I know from experience with othe possible hets. Obviously it missed and it is missing the gene. It still came from the RDR daddy platty and it is a different sanke than all the others. Show me antoher one out there. Yet Ralph is only one reproducing them and we will next year also. Becasue we have the RDR lineage and acquired a male from the daddy platty. Once I make one than everything will be het for the gene. Just like Ralph. The key is to make the daddy platty and then you are in the drivers seat with it.

Joe at MKR

Joe at MKR
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I'd be interested in getting the normal looking siblings from Platy X normal at this time. Those might be your best bet for hets for the gene to combine with lesser to make a platy. Thing is I don't know that they are being sold yet.

I have only really realsed abut 6 females total. We have been keeping them for this reason alone. Let me tell you something Randy. Even in the very beginig before ralph even knew what it ws. He told me don't sell the normal female. I got a hunh man. He obviously did. Thoeries are theories. But popping them out period. I bet we do next season.

Joe at MKR
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With the allele theory it would have to be the normal sibs from the Platy or their possible het offspring (or possible homozygous in the case of the offspring from normal sib X normal sib). In the allele theory the lessers can't carry the dilute gene so they don't have it to pass on to their offspring. Only a platy or its normal sib offspring would have the dilute gene to pass on.

That snake w/o a DOUBT IN MY MIND IS....

A Co-Dominant Hypo AKA Fire Ball!!!!

Not that you are trying to sell any but it has all of what it needs to have to be the EXACT same thing..... Just as we look at Pastels and KNOW!

I'll bet a 3% possible het normal hot probed albino corn boa it is in fact!

I think the Lessers are different from Butters, Mojaves and whatever......
Your Ember is WAY CLOSER to a Co Dom Hypo / Fire than they are!

You will NAIL it...period!

I think it is time to go Kill an Exxon CEO and take his big phat WALLET!

EVILMORPHKING

>>I asked Sean's opinion because I consider EBN "Big breeders," and since we were on a similar topic, thought I would ask. I thank you for your opinion, and will basically try to prove it with a white snake next year....I really doubt it will be proven this year, but my fingers are crossed. I named them Embers to keep the Fire theme, because I think they are Fires. That being said, I honestly hope they are something completely different and new. I also think my Mojave cross female and Emberball female will produce the same morph, and that should be proven this year for sure. I will not call them Fires or advertise them as Fires unless they are proven with a white snake. That being said, I find it funny that a Pastel is a Pastel, but a Fire, no, you have to prove it to be a Fire. What about Yellow Bellies? I understand why, especially with the money involved in Fires vs. Pastels, but I still think it is kind of funny that the breeders who do have actual Fires all said the exact same thing when I emailed them questions and pics of the Embers, "maybe, but prove it out." Basically what I hear is "Yeah it is, hell yeah, but I do not want to compete with your line, so take your sweet time proving it out will ya." I do want to thank Kevin from NERD, because he was the first one to say hey, probably a Co Dom animal, definately not a Hypo. That is what got me looking into what it could be.....I am hoping for a bright yellow super, and NERD will get the first pics Sean, you will get an email shortly after I send one to Kevin
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>>Pics are: Mojave cross female, Ember female, and Ember baby and normal.
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www.newenglandreptile.com

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Drama, intrigue, conspiracy, sex, comedy! This thread has it all!!
It is WAY better than any episode of Desperate Housewives!!
Best entertainment I've had all week, even if the plot is a little weak!!
Keep it going! Please don't stop or I will be doomed to next weeks episode of American Idol!
Grant

"african plattys" or "african lessers"? i check KS all the time and have not seen these being advertised... who has these african versions of the lesser and platty? i just want to see the difference between RDRs lessers and platty and the african version of these snakes...

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with unknown ones.....

and dropping

don't matter
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JYReptiles

Scales-N-Tails Reptiles ltd........Pa

Ralphs Lessers came from one odd looking snake, the Platty Daddy. In this one instance, I have to say that if a Lesser is a Lesser, it should come from the original Line because there might be some hidden genes that make the lesser a lesser. I personally would call any import Lesser a Minor or something along that line.

How do we know that Noah didn't accuire some lessers from the states and breed them himself. Not to far fetched lessers have floating around a few years and if I remeber right rhere was some grumbleings about animals being bred without permission. This big discusion may all point to RDR lineage any way.
Jon

That's what still amazes me, that imported unproven animals seem to often cost more than the cb versions. I guess it's the optimist in some of us and I'm guilty of it too even in my humble collection. The one animal that I ever paid any decent sum for was reported to be an import and I'm thinking is an IMG of some sort. At the time I paid more than I could have probably got a proven line cb axanthic for on the hopes that it would be some stunning new line of killer axanthic. I don't know how many hands it went through before me but it might not even have been an import and it's yet to be seen if it's anything interesting genetically. Some of us would rather gamble (and I knew it was a gamble, not blaming anyone) on something that might turn out great than pay the going rate for a known quantity without the upside.

This whole thread is crazy. There havent been any other platinums found in africa and there havent been "lessers" found either. Any african "lesser" that has come in is being captive produced over there from RDR line animals. WHich is the only line. Yes they are breeding, they even have freedom breeder cages, they have every morph that we have here.

so any blue eyed lucy of lesser or platty that has come in the last 3 years ( the blue eyed lucys that came in last year with lessers and this year with lessers) are RDR line animals.

Bottom line

imported lessers I will believe it. The Daddy Platty is really awesome that is for sure. There are alot of codoms that are similar but make different things. The white snake is awsome but the daddy platty is deffinitly more rare. I would love someone from Afrika post a picture of one of there daddy plattys. Let's see it. I don't think they have them and if they did we would have already seen them. I think the imported lessers are simillar but will see. They would selling them like the ivory females for big bucks in the begining like they did in the past. This should all play out this year I would think anyways. We shall see. I deffinitly think they are different and will untill I see the snake produced. We are dealing with oppinions here and Ralph is the only one with a daddy platty that I have seen.

Joe at MKR
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are you are right there hasnt been any platinums "daddy platty" come in. Ralph has the only one and I do not believe they have any in africa. They are getting lessers and lucys from RDR line lessers. Are they possible hets for the platinum gene?? I dont know but if they came from RDR line, they are possible hets, but to what degree? 50%, 25%, .00005% who the hell knows at this point. I agree with you that if they were producing the platinum gene they would be offered. They are working on producing morphs we dont have yet, but its all about money to them and they know they could get big money for a platinum and they would have been offered for sale.

About them breeding animals outside or in the ground? They have the same cages as we do, top end rack systems. Lindy has sent racks over there before.

Beau

of thier facillites in Afrika. Balls breed there in the wild so I bet it is pretty primitive becasue it can be. I knew they were doing this. We all did. It isn't like it is here.. Freezing winters and all. It will intersting to see how this all plays out.. I bet is more of a codom thing with these imports and untill everything is line bred we don't know without a doubt. We will see.

Joe at MKR
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This is it, aka the platty daddy:

i meant: