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To Nokturnel Tom...

michaelb Jul 30, 2003 08:50 PM

Please accept my condolences on your loss. Let's hope the other one does better. Please keep us updated.

To be on the safe side, I'd quarantine any other animals you may have purchased from this individual.

You know, it's often too easy for us to let our emotions get in the way of making practical, sensible decisions. I certainly can understand why you or anyone else would buy an animal which obviously is in less-than-optimal health. The sympathy factor kicks in, (especially if the price is reduced!).

But in a more practical sense, all the advice out there tells us to make sure the animal we're about to invest in is healthy in all respects. Don't waste your money on a sick animal, they tell us. Very good advice, but not always easy to follow.

What I'm getting at here is that the problem with unscrupulous sellers of sick or poorly-maintained animals can correct itself if we stick with the advice above. Because if fewer people bought sick animals, fewer people would sell them. I know it's a bit "pie-in-the-sky" to think there ever would be NO unscrupulous sellers and NO sick animals for sale, but the more we stick to practical reasoning and avoid making decisions based on our emotions, the less likely that things like this will happen.

Tom, please understand that I'm not being critical of you here. In fact, I applaud you for caring so much for the well-being of these mistreated snakes, and I commend your filing the seller with the BOI. I think everyone here can relate to your situation, and can understand how it easily could happen to any of us. It doesn't have to, tho. Your case serves as a lesson for all of us; I regret that you learned it the hard way.

I wish there were a better solution to help these poor animals. If it were a dog, or a cat, or a cute little bunny, the public would be up in arms and the Humane Society, ASPCA, and/or local animal sanctuaries would jump all over it. But if it's a herp, who ya gonna call? Those organizations couldn't care less about herps.

michaelb

Replies (12)

Nokturnel Tom Jul 31, 2003 02:13 AM

I don't know why you think I intentionally bought sick snakes? That was not the case. These were supposed to be captive born and everyone who saw them said they looked like wild caughts. They were also supposed ot be in perfect health and to further it. het for White Sided. Sometimes people have the floor fall out from beneath them and a great deal is offered because someone needs cash. That's what I figured. The guy also gave me a reference who I now see on the BOI getting bashed constantly for having lousy animals. It was just too little too late, wish I had discovered that site earlier. I was ripped off plain and simple. Unfortunately, in my opinion......there's more bad guys out there than good. They're invading and just ruining the hobby. Luckily there's others who take extreme pride in thier animals and are very honest. It will haunt me for a long time that I went for a cheap deal instead of sticking to my regulars. Live and learn. Tom

draybar Jul 31, 2003 04:39 PM

I know you mentioned that one died but how is the second one doing since the treatments?
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Jimmy (draybar)

Nokturnel Tom Jul 31, 2003 05:20 PM

Thanks for asking, the 2nd one is not eating but looks much better than the other one ever did. It is drinking water. I have another dose for it which I will administer soon. I also got some baby Floridana from this guy and 1 of the 3 looks like it is on its way out too.......they just won't eat. I can not find a freakin feeder lizard to try either. It is very frustrating. I hope that in the future I can post pics of some snakes which made a full recovery. Keep your fingers crossed. Tom

draybar Aug 01, 2003 05:05 PM

>
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Jimmy (draybar)

michaelb Jul 31, 2003 06:57 PM

Yeah, I had the wrong impression. Upon further review, it appears you bought them thru mail order (internet?) and they simply arrived in much worse shape than you expected. ("They arrived looking too thin...somewhat ragged appearance...they just look a little wrong...this pair looks run down..." exerpts from your earlier posts.) And to make matters worse, the dealer did not even acknowledge your complaints, much less offer to correct the matter.

So I was a bit off target. What I described does happen, whereby individuals sometimes buy a "poor, sickly animal" just to get it in a better place than it was with an inattentive dealer/ breeder. I apologize for thinking that was the case here.

The problem(s) you encountered may in fact be more rampant than we would like to think. Personally, I would not purchase a snake, or any other animal, sight-unseen. Not even a picture will do; I want to see it, hold it, examine it, and know first-hand that it is a healthy animal with an acceptable temperament before I commit to owning it. I suppose I might be more lax in doing business with a knowledgeable, experienced breeder who comes highly recommended and is well respected in the business. But even then I would need some kind of assurance regarding return/exchange policy in case problems are identified. (That should be no problem at all with a reputable businessperson.) I'm just not the trusting sort.

Sorry again for my misunderstanding. I should have known, what with all of the animals you already have. I'm still hoping for the best with the other snakes, and hope you'll keep us updated.

michaelb

Nokturnel Tom Jul 31, 2003 11:35 PM

I used to be shy when it came ot buying site unseen but in some instances you could be missing out on some knockout animals. Most of the people I am about to list will tell you I can drive you crazy before finally making a purchase. I had so many above average snakes for such a long while that I just let my guard down. These are some GOOD guys
Tim Gebhard Vivid Reptiles
Don Soderberg South Mountain Reptiles
Don Shores Shore's Enough Snakes
Stephen Emerick Napa Valley Snakes
Dave Doherty Hondurans and Grey Bands
Stephen Fowler Fowlers Foods
Jason Nelson Envy Reptiles
Rainer W. Blue Rosy "on the forums"
I hope I spelled everything correctly, regardless these are the type of people you can buy with confidence from. I always appreciated the animals I received from day 1 but now, after this lousy deal......they seem even more perfect. I think people like these will always have above average specimens, especially when compared to pet stores. Hands on is always a plus, like ata show, but I am in TX and a few of the above mentioned people are also from here, so I had the advantage of seeing a few before I bought them. I always prefer a local sale over long distance. Anyways, sorry to ramble on. I appreciate all the concern and outrage over this transaction. It is great to see so many people who are serious about thier herps, and looking out for others too. Thanks Tom

michaelb Jul 31, 2003 11:52 PM

Thanks for the info, Tom. I'm in central OK, where there are limited resources as far as hands-on acquisitions (only a couple of shops in the area that deal mainly with herps), but I do have connections with a local wholesale pet & pet supply distributor that supplies much of this entire multi-state area. But I'm keeping a copy of your list of good breeders, for future reference. michaelb

patricia sherman Jul 31, 2003 11:17 PM

Where do I find the website for BOI? I think that the link should be prominently posted, so that anyone can find it easily.
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tricia

Nokturnel Tom Jul 31, 2003 11:39 PM

It is on the [bleep].com site. There is a table of contents and you have to scroll down a bit to see the link for The Original Board of Inquiry. I am a huge fan of this site too, but I tell you the BOI has a zillion posts on the whole good guy bad guy scene. It just may have saved me from the mess I am in now with these poor sick snakes. I encourage anyone to check it out. Take it easy Tom

Nokturnel Tom Aug 01, 2003 01:46 AM

Email me of you like NokturnelEclipse@aol.com

Bluerosy Aug 01, 2003 01:50 PM

Zaunaclassifieds.com but with an F instead of a Z.

Nokturnel Tom Aug 01, 2003 02:50 PM

LOL That was a good trick! You would think this site would support such an important and useful message board. I hope they do in the future. c ya Tom

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