Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In developing my classic line in the mid 80s, I purchased my original stock from breeders who:

1) took excellent care of their stock
2) two had stock that exhibited typical thayeri characteristics
3) were knowledge of the Mexicana complex
4) could tell me a little bit about the history of their stock. (This last point had more to do with insuring that I was getting unrelated animals for my collection than pretending to trace them back to wc founder stock.)

These criteria, in my mind, established a breeder as reputable and assured me a healthy founding population of Mexicana that were phonetically thayeri with enough genetic diversity to ensure that they would stay variable for the long haul.

Time was the question never came up but now, when pressed, I can’t bring myself to say my stock is pure. Simply put, the once wide spread practice of crossing thayeri with the other sub-species of Mexicana as well as alterna and ruthveni predates my awareness of these animals! Though I was diligent in selecting animals that were typical thayeri phenotypes from breeders who had a similar appreciation for the classic forms, I honestly think it very unlikely that all of my original 8.8 captive-bred thayeri were free of any influence from past breedings to related forms. In fact I think for me to believe otherwise would be somewhat delusional.

Now there may be others out there who can claim otherwise and feel they have adequately traced all their stock back to wild caught founder animals. That’s great but even if I were to cull my entire existing collection and purchase new stock from these guys I still couldn’t say they were “pure” with a straight face. That isn’t to say that I believe any such claims are misrepresentation. It’s just that given human nature and that there has never existed a system for tracking the lineages of these animals (other than on an ad hoc basis) I take them with several grains of salt. IMHO most who believe they have “pure” stock do so as much on faith as on evidence. This may fly for many in a post-modern world but it just doesn’t sit with me. I think it unwise to place ones faith on what may be another’s delusion.

This is why I much more prefer the term classic over pure. Within the captive population we CAN define classic phenotyps and we CAN exclude animals of known hybrid origin or obvious hybrid influence from classic lines but we shouldn’t call something pure unless we can be 100% sure.

....that was well thought out and absolutely mirrors my experiences and beliefs as well. Thankfully, you are better at putting in print and I think you see where I was going with my post earlier. I like to put out a few questions and "what if"'s etc.
It would be nearly imposible to trace any given snake I think.
I had argued along those lines with a friend about some of our locality cornsnakes. What sealed the deal for him was when my son and I found 2 amels here in the area... Not only that, but one ended up being het/anery.
So you see....even in (some) wild situations, you cannot be sure what you have.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Yeah I liked your post a lot and almost responded but couldn't get my thoughts together in the time I had. Basically I was thinking that IF we could believe a given fellow's normals were pure BUT WOULD DOUBT that any albino he had was, then there must be some economic variable in how we determine purity.

To site your example but put a person to it, if I’m popping out $150 animals and you have faith they are pure and then you doubt a $2500 albino I pop out of the same line that means your previous faith was in error. Interestingly, the ONLY THING THAT WOULD HAVE CHANGED would be the money! After all the albino would merely be a phenotypic expression of the underlying genetics which hadn’t changed.

From this I get:

Greater price = Greater level of scrutiny

It isn’t much of a leap from there to say cheap but supper looking thayeri isn’t going to get much scrutiny at all!

In my opinion this really illustrates how subjective we are in determining if stock is pure or not. I believe the use of such subjective criteria at some level is almost universal which is why I prefer classic over pure.

There was a time I never thought I would say this but the only thing that can be pure is locality and even then if you didn’t catch it yourself can you be 100% sure?

I agree Tony. Semantics though, if you just say a name any name then there is the implication that there is such a thing and that the said thing is distinct from all other things. Therefore without a qualifier there is also an implcation of purity.
What if you do say something is classic? It's interesting to me that that also implies that something is similar to an original form, hence implying that there is or was a pure form somewhere, sometime.
That is why I went from not using the word pure back to using it. No matter what you say when discussing an ever changing evolving thing it requires some dialogue to be certain both parties understand each other.

We've covered this ground before Aaron and I respect your opinion and what you have to say and I never miss one of your posts if I see it but I don't really think the difference here is simply semantics. Pure is pure. Its a 100% thing. In this context it relates to a given stock's genotype and if you can't be 100% sure well you shouldn't say it.

You make some good points Tony and not so good points. It's good to be cautious, but to make a broad stroke statement and lump all of us together as having "delusions" about our breeder stock is simply unfair. Many of us go to great lengths to verify and cross-check the history of our animals long before we open the wallet. If you feel you were mis-lead after making your thayeri purchase then that's not our fault.

Attached is a photo I took of a wild thayeri. David Lazcano from UANL caught it in Coahuila. When he showed it to me, should I have doubted him because it doesn't match my mental image of what a thayeri should like? Should I trust his word? Afterall, I wasn't there when he caught it. What would you think if this snake was sitting on a table for sale at a herp show labeled: thayeri ? Would you think it was the real deal or perhaps a hybrid? Either way, how would you know?

At the end of the day, ANY transaction we enter into requires a certain level of trust and faith; it doesn't matter if you're buying a used car, a new home, or a block of cheese.

I'm curious to know what makes you doubt today that all of your original 8.8 captive-bred thayeri were crossed with something? Thanks.

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Dan
www.SerpentsOnline.com

Everyone that I have dealt with during the purchase of my thayeri has been commited to the authenticity (sp) of his/her breeding lines. I just don't won't buy them if I'm not sure about someones commitment.

I proud to deal with people like Serpent Dan when building my breeding stock. Thanks for these Dan.

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Actually that snake fits my criteria for thayeri very well!!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Dan I don't feel misled and I'm not unhappy with any of the animals I've had over the years. Also I didn't mean to paint with an overly broad brush or offend. It just comes down to I don't think you can completely check the history of your stock unless you only go to the well.

Lets say you investigate a pair that are traced back three generations to Bob Applegate. Now Bob keeps GREAT records and being the O.F. that he is, he was around when a lot of the original founder stock was coming into the country. So you should be good as gold right? Is it time to open the wallet? Well if these snakes are the result of three generations of sibling to sibling line breeding sure but that isn't likely to be the case. Most likely there is some other "thayeri" stock mixed in. Does each breeder involved keep good records, do you request back ground info on all the guys stock, just the one he claims to have produced the neonates you are interested in, how far back do you go on these side shoots. To me it just seems a huge task and overly excessive. I'm pretty much a control freak and I like to know as much about my stock as possible but I can't see doing what it would take to be 100% sure. At some point you have to make judgement calls or take a leap of faith.

Now if you only went to the well to the likes of Bob, the late great Loyd L. and a few others one might be okay but if everyone followed this ideal and worked only with animals that can be traced back to a few founding blood lines there would be a huge loss in genetic diversity of the captive population. Personally I think that sacrifice is not worth a little increase in the credibility that one's stock is pure.

Semantics? Maybe but it does matter to me.

First and foremost Tony, I hope we are all still amigos. Second, I hope you didn't take offense to my post. Sometimes my writing style can be too direct and it's easy for emotions to flair up on these forums and things get lost in translation. That's one of the reasons why I try to stay off these forums. Third, I completely understand your rationale and can't say I blame you. You simply require a higher level of confidence before purchasing an animal.

The gist of my last post, and perhaps I did not articulate it well, was where do we draw the line when it comes to believing someone? It's easy to discredit people and try to blow holes in there credibility. Should we be skeptical and distrust everyone who keeps mexicana? Do some mexicana keepers do more thorough research than others? YES. Should we assume all the thayeri stock in the US has been compromised? I don't. Can a herper still buy a pure thayeri today? There are still devoted keepers who have maintained pure lines over the years.

Before buying animals, I spend a lot of time getting to know the right people and asking questions. If things don't add up or if there are inconsistancies or gaps in the timeline, I walk away.

If we start to believe all thayeri in private collections have been polluted, then we should just call it a day, tell Jeff B. to shut down this Forum, and let's go hang out on the hybrid forum.

Anyway, I've said enough. Gotta go clean cages. Thanks for reading.

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Dan
www.SerpentsOnline.com

Yes to the Amego thing! I never thought this was getting out of hand. Guess what I'm trying to say is that I just don't feel confident enough about the past to say yes these are pure with 100% confidence. It isn't because I don't think they are or I don't trust who I got them from I'm just not comfortable saying so. When ever someone ask me about the purity of my animals I just tell them what I know and let them deside if they are pure or not. I more identify with having a small well maintained collection which with two toddlers running around seems to be getting smaller and smaller.

......you just proved his point?

"David Lazcano from UANL caught it in Coahuila. When he showed it to me, should I have doubted him because it doesn't match my mental image of what a thayeri should like? Should I trust his word?"

Of course it doesn't match "our" thayeri. We've bred the ones that were the BRIGHTEST and YELLOWEST and ORANGEST for about the last ten years or so now.

Chris

PS...before anyone's feathers get all ruffled no specific offense intended.

Pleas don't hurt me, Mr. ViChris.......

.....you apparently didn't understand Dan's point?!!

"Of course it doesn't match "our" thayeri. We've bred the ones that were the BRIGHTEST and YELLOWEST and ORANGEST for about the last ten years or so now."

Do you realize that statement relates to Dan's point and makes as much sense as if I were to say that you and I are best friends?!!

"PS...before anyone's feathers get all ruffled no specific offense intended."

Do you realize what it means when you say "no specific offense intended" after making a directly offensive statement towards someone?!!

"Pleas don't hurt me, Mr. ViChris......"

Do you realize how antagonistic that one remark is, and how many levels above you Chris G. is as an individual, and that he wouldn't waste his few seconds on you?!!

You come here to ruffle feathers... maybe you should go back to terrorizing the neighborhood, kicking over little girl's lemonade stands, pulling their hair, and generally being a massive pain around those you encounter every day. You may possibly get more of the reactions you desire!

I read your posts now for the good laughs they generate!

Your buddy forever,

Mike

Lemme see here.....tread lightly....

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.....you apparently didn't understand Dan's point?!!

No, I think his point was that you should trust someone at his word. I agree. I was, in fact, using his point to further prove Tony's point that you CANNOT trust 100% due to the nature of the animal's lines of intergradation and it has NO REFLECTION on someone's word. I believe that's where you misunderstood what I said.
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"Of course it doesn't match "our" thayeri. We've bred the ones that were the BRIGHTEST and YELLOWEST and ORANGEST for about the last ten years or so now."

Do you realize that statement relates to Dan's point and makes as much sense as if I were to say that you and I are best friends?!!

Yes. I do realize that. It was antithesis used for example's sake. Please see above reply.

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"PS...before anyone's feathers get all ruffled no specific offense intended."

Do you realize what it means when you say "no specific offense intended" after making a directly offensive statement towards someone?!!

Actually, no. I really didn't intend to ruffle Dan's feathers specifically. He's a stand-up guy as his reputation precedes him. I am sorry you felt the need to antagonize me with your reply, but I won't bite. I'll merely clarify my point. By the way, that was not a "direct offensive statement" directed at you or anyone else.
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"Pleas don't hurt me, Mr. ViChris......"

Do you realize how antagonistic that one remark is, and how many levels above you Chris G. is as an individual, and that he wouldn't waste his few seconds on you?!!

Ahhh, now HERE I was poking a little fun at the silly "I'm a bouncer" pic he posted further up the board. I figured he'd get the joke as that picture was OBVIOUSLY done in fun.

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You come here to ruffle feathers...

Err, no I don't.

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maybe you should go back to terrorizing the neighborhood, kicking over little girl's lemonade stands, pulling their hair, and generally being a massive pain around those you encounter every day. You may possibly get more of the reactions you desire!

I'm speechless.

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I read your posts now for the good laughs they generate!

Great!
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Your buddy forever,

Well, I dunno about that. I detect some sarcasm. Plus, the way you are trying to draw me out seems a little bit like you don't really like me; however, I am always willing to forgive.

Mike

Chris

I usually don't Pop pimples, I just let them.................... Go Away.
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Chris Jones,
If you know the criteria I/we use to determine if a thayeri is 'pure' or not that wild collected specimen falls right into what a thayeri should look like.
I have seen that pic a hundred times or more and I have seen thousands of thayeri from dedicated, honest breeders and all of them (even the bright yellow/orange ones) meet all of the criteria I use to determine my definition of 'purity'........
I even have some that look similar to that one without the split saddles, but I certainly have seen thayeri with split saddles.....
John Lassiter

...I know it's a wild type.

Again, not the point.

S'cool though. Folks in here tend to take themselves a little too seriously.

It'll prolly die down again in another eight years or so wheh thayeri go back to 50 bucks where they belong, everyone stops trying to get-rich-quick and the fury dies down.

I was simpy stating that Tony's point was that you can never be SURE if it is all pure, and he's right.

So I felt the comment about it not looking "typical" couldn't be more appropriate.

Chris

.

....who doesnt know anything about these snakes......

1. What does a pure Thayeri look like?

and

2. How do you know? I am talking about wild caught ones from back in the day too, Im not interested in someones current stockpile.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"