Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are a series of pics, its very small series, I took them today.

Heres a pic of an ackie hatching. Its parents were raised here with incandesent bulbs. You will see those bulbs in the following pics. Also, its parents, parents, and its parents parents parents parents. Ok there are a few more parents to add, but you get the point. Also of interest is, all those parents were raised in the SAME cages with the same lites and even the same cage furniture. Now I sound pitiful. hahahahahahahaha but its true. Heres the ackie hatching.

Heres a pic of a four day old red ackie taking on what appears to be a giant cricket. hahahahahaha Its many generations of its parents were raised in these cages.

Heres a hatchling V.gilleni, its a twin, the other twin is under the boards with three or four gilleni/caudolineatus. Both the gilleni parents and caudolineatus parents were raised in these cages for many generations.

Heres a threeway gouldi complex cross. Yes both the crosses parents and the pure gouldi,argus,flavirufus, parents were raised here in THESE cages with these lites.

Heres a lacie under a bell shaped incandesent, she laid eggs two days ago. And yes here parents and their parents and their parents were raised in the same cages as the other babies and in these very cages, with the same lites and sorry to say, same boards.

Please do not get mad at me for saying you do not need UV lites. Get mad at these monitors and generations of their parents. And yes, there are far far far more if you want.

Which leads me back to this, you get mad at me for bringing this up. What do you expect me to do? You should really be made at those that duped you into believing UV bulbs are "necessary".

As I mentions, I do not believe anyone of those folks or all of folks put together has achieved the results of even one of these pics(the generations the pic represents)

With that in mind, why do you believe them? Please I am not being mean, I am very curious. People somehow take a paper as gospel when the paper really contained almost no material, just a lot of words and a lot of math, and methods and materials, but no appliable results. The hope of this forum is to find appliable methods that express real results. And sir, that is why those papers are of little good. If those papers resulted in something that showed(resulted in) real hard results, then I would be the first to call those papers great. But if they are only for other biologist to converse over. Then they are totally worthless here. That is of no offense to the authors. Its more about you taking papers out of context.

The context of this forum is to result in the above pics or simple a healthy pet monitor.

I hope your study will result in appliable results. Thanks

illustration! I have never used UV anything with my monitors.
-----
Greg Holland
GM HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

Wow thank you for the maturity FR, I was pretty sure that it was understood that people have their own way of raising herps and while somthing may be different it isnt necessarily wrong. But you posting this message just proves your level of maturity, time and time I let it go that you disagree with me, thats fine, but I find it quite humourous that with all these people saying how the forum has gotten hostile, you would dedicate a post to me, knowing that it would dissolve into another arguement, not this time buddy. Im going to take the high road, you dont use UV, and neither do alot of others, but guess what, many people do including zoo's, biology labs, and breeders. I assumed you were a somewhat intelligent person and would want the study completed so you could say you were right, thats all im trying to do, is find the truth, grow up.

In any study your doing. I would be so disappointed if you did not require some evidence to support whats said.

I mean anyone can say anything, so I offer some support, you know pics.

I am confused, you do not want to see any support of what I am saying??? I know others enjoy seeing as well as reading.

Please understand, I also would like to see pics of your results.

Monitors not requiring UV bulbs has nothing at all to do with you. Not in anyway. And nothing to do with the zoo you work at. or those people you constantly mention. It simply is a fact. A fact, others are very interested in. So don't take it personal. Its about keeping monitors. and thats the "TRUTH"

Good luck

By the way, look at pic #3, you need to clean up a little man, feces that are left are bacterial magnets, tisk tisk

I am sure you know this is what monitors do to mark an area. This is a natural behavior and not to be disturbed if your interested in behavior.

Also, from the explinations above each pic, generations have succeeded in this manner. So bacteria has not been a problem, what so ever. Cheers

Hi Frank, great looking monitors.

Could you share more about the marking behavior? Oddly enough, awhile back my wife suggested that I shouldn't clean the monitor's boards so often. She thought it probably bothered them.

Hi Neal, This practice was learned by many others and I, a long time ago, with many species of lizards. For instance, if you are looking for local populations of Chuchwallas, you do not have to find the actual lizards. You look for piles of dung on top rocks. Find the pile, you found the chucks.

Then I noticed that when it rained(we use to have that you know) My tristis that were outside, were compelled to remark their spots. They did a kind of hula, an exaggerated wiggle, while rubbing the rear on their favorite areas. Not their whole range, just individual parts within the range. The books say, they make their range, yet I only see them marking their spots.

Then I learned if you set up their cage right, they did the same indoors. IF you misted or sprayed down the cage, they immediately came out and remarked their favorite spots. I use to show this to visitor, like RSG and JEFE.

Take ackies, in poor indoor cages, they have no fecal dropping pattern. Yet outdoors in large cages they did. They would emerge, bask, walk about a meter, then deficate, doing the oddest of behavoirs. They dropped their pellet, lifted the back legs up in the air, and rubbed their butt like a dog does on grass. And Both sexes did this, everytime.

The nubbedtailed group of monitors, deficate on their favorite basking spot. While some beginers like one biologist think its a bad thing, leaving these piles is natural and promotes continued natural behavior, for "the biologist" this is what these species are. They are their behavior. They are not washed boards. If the biologist, ever really becomes a biologist, you will realized that a species is its behavior, then its followed by physical adaption.

Keepers must understand, these animals do these things, if your don't do these things, then your not providing the conditions to allow your charges to be normal.

In captivity, these reflections of their behavior are tools to make decisions with. For instance, you have V.caudolineatus. They have tiny little babies. When they hatch, they hide all the time. I imagine, they are too little to face the stresses of the outside world. So, how do you tell if they are doing well? do you tear up their cage to see if they are doing well? or do you use signs like these pellet piles. If they do this, you know several things. You know they are feeding, you know how much they are eating, you know they are basking, and you know they are being normal. All without messing with the cage and messing with their natural behavior. Too bad the biologist does not understand this biology.

Which makes me wonder, doesn't the term biologist mean, the person using that label should understand biology?

This subject could be a great topic of conversation and discussion. Most field biologist and scientists, believe and say, wild monitors are "different" then captives. I believe this is a reason they look down on keepers. Of course, I do not believe that. Take Daniel Bennett, I use him, because he is of that belief, yet, made an effort to change those thoughts. His term is, monitors in boxes. Yet, he came here and sat and stared at monitors exhibiting natural unseen behaviors, not known in nature. Behaviors in the social areas, both with opposite sexes, pairing, attending, etc. and with males, pack hunting etc, positioning. Eye contact and body positioning. Whats funny is, some academics know of these, but only understand the yelling. I guess thats why yell here. They only understand two monitors fighting, they do not understand 99% of varanid language that occurs before and around that yelling. Heck, they even misinterpid fighting. They call it unsocial, yet biologist know and teach that social animals fight. How odd.

I hope you(Neal) are starting to understand why I question those biologist that come and talk like their experts, when they do not understand the subject.

By the way, hows the caudos doing. If you have an extra male, I have a female that I have been breeding to a gilleni, only because I do not have a male. We could share pure caudo babies. Thanks

Thanks for sharing, that is real food for thought.

The caudos are doing well. I am very fond of them, they are so lively and goofy. To be honest, I really don't know if I have a male or not. I am still mystified about their sex.

Cheers,
Neal

The reason I asked is, from the pics I saw, it appeared you have two males. And I have one female, hahahahahahaha

But she just bred with the male gilleni again, so you have about a month to think it over.

You can show more pics or we could meet and I could sex them for you. Cheers

The fella that I got them from thought they were two females. I was thinking that they might be a pair though, then at some point last year, I started thinking maybe they are two males. Then a few months ago, I moved them to a new setup and I found what appeared to be a couple dried up old eggs in their old dirt. So I reckon that one must be a female.

I haven't been getting anywhere with them so if I don't agree to a breeding loan, I suppose that then it will be my fault if there are no more pure caudolineatus in the US. It must be their destiny to return to the place of their birth - haha

I would like to start geting my mice from you, so we ought to meet sometime. In the meantime, I will see if I can find some pics to show you.

Thanks,
Neal

E-mail me, then I will e-mail you my phone number. Thanks

Come on dude, you go on and on all the time about how there are thusand right ways to do things and how eveyone should just agree to disagree (not your exact words, but I think you get what I mean), and then you go posting a whole new message just to say how your way works and therefore the other way must have no "real results".
I can see how if you are raising them just to keep them alive and then sell them, you would worry about only your "real result", but there are other potential results. What if UV affects their behavior or their growth rate. Wouldn't this be good information for people who see and animal and for people who see dollar signs?
It's great how you can put so much hostility into such kind words and a happy-toned post. But look, I can too. lol

If somebody else has a certain point of view that disagrees with him, then back it up. Show how different applications have produced different or more favorable results. I think he gets mad when the person doesn't have any real world experience teting these things over and over again but instead just spouts things from textbooks.

Montitors have been bred for a lot of years. You would think that by now there would be another with equal to Franks experience that goes with another point of view, and can support his claim with many generations and tests that show UV is better than none. Why aren't there any, and why would they not want to prove what their years of research has shown??

I guess I would get mad too if I put in that many years, with thousands of results and tons of proof to back up my claim, and somebody started saying this and that with none of the experience, wouldn't you??

-Jeff

Not every bit of knowledge requires many generations of experienc. I know that I do not simply spout things from text books, but rather allude to observations I have made. I think that this is the case with many who have posted here that do not have generations of monitors to show for it.
Also, my point was that while he says there is more than one way to do things, he attacks everyone else's ways. He started this thread as an attack as someone who was not targeting him. It is hipocritical and I was simply pointing it out while using an example relavent to his point.
Once again, you do not need years of experience with monitors to know that UV is needed by other diurnal lizards, and though it may not be necesarrily needed by monitors, they probably do have a certain relationship with it and it may have psychological and/or physical effects.
I respect that he has lots of experience with varanids and I wouldn't argue with him over specific care requirements exclusive to montiors. Some topics that are relavent to monitors, however, can be relavent to other species and there are connections to be made.
I personally, just wish that he would disagree with people in a less hipocritical and unkind way.

Generations is support that What is said is not an accident. Its repeatable results. In this case, one would imagine if UV bulbs were needed, many generations of healthy monitors would not have occurred.

Can you compare generations to five years of one individuals life? most likely not.

As much as you fellas think I do not care for science, science does promote numbers, to quantify. Large numbers outweight low numbers. The larger the sample in any study allows for a greater chance of being accurate. Cheers

Dude, I didn't say UV was required. Get that through your head. I only said thatb it may be physically or psychologically beneficial and that you do not need multiple generations to prove that that is a possibility.

I did not say you did, but consider generations also indicate that your hint of a possibility of something of some harmful event, is also discounted. As generations are about as far as the state of keeping goes.

The possibility of harmful events are everywhere and can also be used against your arguement. For instance, theres a far greater possibility that UV does not have hidden benefits, as it has not been expressed in dozens of generations. Consider, we have something in the neighorhood of 118 generations of monitors here at Goanna Ranch. So far so good.

consider all sorts of adverse events could happen, I bet more other events will occur before UV related events occur.

Consider I have heard this defense before. You know, "yea but somewhere somehow it will show up and cause harm? All I can say to that is, when that day comes and that event happens, I will deal with it then, in the meantime, I will use what has shown to work.

Which is the same defense for this countries forced inbreeding of many species. If and when the day comes that its a problem, then we will deal with it.

Consider our results are still cutting edge.

My only advice to you as a keeper is, worry about the here and now. Do the things that are known. Take each step, one at a time. What happens in the future will take care of itself or not. Cheers

O.k., I am going to try this again. I do not believe that UV is required by monitors. The reason is because you have proven that it is not required by monitors. I only believe that it may have some benefits. For instance, some people insist that it brightens their color. Not that is necesarrily the case, just an example of a potential extra benefit. And since UV does not harm the lizard, and could potentially be beneficial, the message that began this thread seemed usless. I did not see a reason to start an argument over someones's choice to use UV lighting.

"For instance, some people insist that it brightens their color. Not that is necesarrily the case, just an example of a potential extra benefit."

Would that be a benefit to the monitor or the keeper? Just wondering if now we are crossing the line again of what is better for the keeper and not the monitor... Feel free and correct me if I am wrong. Thank you. DB

Bright colors are generally a sign that the animal is thriving and in good health. At least this is the case with iguanas. If you spend a lot of time around iguanas, you notice that when they are stressed, they are dull dark colors. It is likely the same case with monitors because lizards tend to reflect their state of being with their colors. Also, once again, their could potentially be other benefits.

This is a discussion. I am only trying to pin you down to what your actually talking about.

If its color your concerned with, then I can show you pics of the brightest prettist monitors that have never seen a UV bulb or the sun.

Brightness of color has a direct connection with health. If a keeper adds UV bulbs and it results in a brighter animal, then maybe he started with a slightly unhealthy animal. See, I can do maybe's as well.

As I mentioned before, there are a thousand maybes, if you want go by "maybes" then good on ya. I perfer to live with what actually works. I have no use for maybes. Cheers

That's the problem. You are trying to pin me down while I am only talking about potential. I'm not saying that you should start using UV, only that their is nothing wrong with someone making the desicion to use UV. And I clearly stated that color was only one example of how it may be affecting the animals. It could also have indirect effects. Maybe it helps them cope with certain microbes or kills off certain microbes. Once again, only one example of a possibility.

You simply want to imply a question of doubt, without any tangible reason what so ever.

Its very possible you or I get hit by an edsel, No, a buick, no, a ford. Heck we could possibly be hit by any one of them or more. If we are lucky we could get hit by a 911.

Heres the most likely senario. You will stop keeping monitors and move on to something else and I will still be raising babies and adult monitors without UV bulbs. This has been done here many times. Cheers

I am not implying doubt. I am implying hope. I don't think that the absence of UV will hurt the montiors, just that UV may be of benefit. I am not keeping any montiors. I plan to in the future. I know you will probably have at me for even posting because of that, but before you do, I would like for you to notice that I have not posted any montior specific information. I have only posted ideas and observations based on my iguanas, monitors I have seen, my friends' montiors, and wild animals. I have also handled plenty of monitors. I do not claim to be an expert. That is why I am not arguing that monitors do need UV or argue what the temps should be. I have only argued possibilities and observations based on the experience I have that is relavent to monitors.

Why would you hope you need UV bulbs for some reason thats unknown?

Why do you want to pay more for a litebulb? You should understand there is very little if any differences, OTHER THEN PRICE, between a normal lite bulb and Reptile UV bulb?????? The only difference is the coating on the inside upper surfaces of the bulb. In fact, its not different then many normal bulbs.

You do understand a litebulb and UV bulbs do not hold a candle to the SUN. And They don't need that either.

To end this, I think many people are mainly effected by commerical advertising. I think the reason you hoping is only because you really want to believe that advertising. Just think about that, name any product that has truthfull advertising. There may be a very few. Cheers

I don't hope that you need them. I would use them out of hope that they benefit the monitors. I am aware that they don't compare to the sun. I never got why they make different strenght bulbs and tubes. Considering that even the ones with the most UV don't make a substitute for the sunlight absorbed by pretty much any diurnal reptile.

Why do you hope they add something over non-UV bulbs????? Because they cost more?

See this is the part I cannot figure out. I too would hope they had a added benefit, to support their extra cost. But they don't, At least over 118 complete generations of monitors.

You do understand, the very few studies done, were done with only a very few individual reptiles, and almost no monitors.(compared to 118 generations)

Basically speaking, UV bulbs were recomended in the past when there was very little success with monitors. They were recomended in the hope they would aid in success. The problem is, they do not play a part in current successful husbandry. As in, they didn't add anything, in fact, it seems they do not compete at all.

Just for fun, a few years ago, we had this same discussion, so out of curiousity, I decided to see what it would have cost me to run UV lites instead of regular bulbs. First, I was successful right of the bat, before I knew what you were suppose to do with monitors. So I did not know I should have used UV bulbs. So I just used what was in the cages.

Anyway, if you used the bulbs as recomended(go by their replacement time) I just refigured it out and it would have been $1,044,000.00 in UV bulbs.

Hmmmmmmmm They surely should have done something realllllllly better, but they didn't.

The reality is, I did not use them, and have done far better then most. I have also bred many "first" world and U.S breedings. All without UV bulbs.

So yea, you go on hoping, and when you figure out what it is, please fill me in. Cheers

Yah man, I know what you are saying. I agree that it is fine for you to go on doing what you are doing. I am just saying that if someone wants to use them, it's cool. And there may be a little bit of benefit. Either way, it doesn't really matter.

I have a friend who uses them with some reptiles (old habit, like your arguement, just in case). He had a business that deals with reptiles, he bought those UV bulbs (the top 3 brands) for the same price it cost him to buy ceiling lights for his shop, around $2-$7 each, why is that? I can tell you, there is no difference besides the color of the light produced, also they had prices set on each to sell them for $19-$50 each, wow the profit margin, but some people will pay that.
I tried using regular bulbs in place of UV bulbs that I used at one time, there was no difference at all. The difference came when I removed the extra light assembly, without the small amount of ambient heat produced the lizards dulled in color some. Why, if you put a reptile in a room thats cooler it will be darker and duller than one in a warmer romm, something to think about.
The only benefit Ive ever seen to UV bulbs is profit produced by their sale.
But as I tell everyone else, its your choice to use of not use them, when I bred beardies they recieved no benefit from having or not having those bulbs, in fact the brightest most colorful examples I have ever seen lived under a common household blacklight bulb and the same floodbulbs Ive always used.

Yes, I agree. And I am aware tha lizards get darker when it is cooler. Just pointing out that some people believe the UV impacts color. Also, I believe black lights give off UV. I might be wrong, I just think I have heard somewhere that they do.

Light...
The regular bulbs we use all of the time produce however much is needed on their own, even if our meters dont read it. I think sometimes that some UV meters may be made by the companies that make the bulbs, it helps to sell bulbs, seems like common sense to me, lol.

and picture # 4, thats is definately not a safe distance from the light

i dont believe Mr. Retes is trying to start an argument. i think he is just trying to show you that he has already proven that UV light is unnessesary thru breeding and raising these animals for many generations of them without ever using UV light. i also believe he has already explained the lights being too close. he said that they are low wattage bulbs that are not hot enough to burn the monitors. that's why they are so close to the monitors.
-----
-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.1.0 western fence lizard

Why don't you ask questions about what you are really thinking rather then trying to argue or beat around the bush??

Like if the feces are that much of a danger, then there must have been some problems in your mind, then ask what problems have resulted from keeping it there. Or ask why he left it there to try to get an understanding of what's going on. I think you may need to get out into the field and see actual monitors to understand many behaviors.

If you say the bulb is too close, there must have been several injuries from it, then ask what injuries have occoured in that particular setup. If none, then you must have some bad information in your head and ask why there wasn't any injuries.

If UV bulbs are needed, then ask what illnesses or damages have occoured due to no UV added ever. If none, and the animals complete life events, then ask yourself why is it needed and what would it do for the animals that isn't being done already?

This is a place for discussion, and disagreements. There's no need to argue or turn it into an argument at all. Just two sides, with one not haveing any real world experience, and another having more than any of us on here.

If I were you, I would go to the field, study what real monitors do in person. Then keep a couple groups yourself, raising both ways and see for yourself what happens.

-Jeff

First thanks, that was very very good, I need you to coach me.

Next your last suggestion is wrong. You ask him to set up monitors in both ways. The problem is, and you have seen it many times before. He will fail with and without UV, the reason is, what causes failure is not the lites. Its a general misunderstanding of varanid husbandry.

I mentioned this right off, You can use UV bulbs, you can use Non UV bulbs, you can use all sorts of bulbs, so if its not A and its not B, then it must be D. D is none of the above.

As far as I can tell from my experience, Calicum deseases are the same as RI, URI, mouthrot, and systemic bacterial infections, they are cause by a surpressed immune system. A surpressed immune system is caused by failure to provide support in either the physical or mental areas. When levels of support drop below a certain point, their bodies shut down, the immune system is first noticed. They will die from any old thing.

I use the term "bandaid" in these cases, you can bandaid one area, then the monitor will simply die from a cause in another area. Eliminate the bacteria, and it will die from lack of calicum. Fix that and it will die from liver desease, fix that and it will die from kidney failure. The key is to not eliminate whats normal, just give the monitor what it needs(support) and it will fix itself.

when someone mentions germs, I now know that person is lost. Cheers

Well, its been a while since I posted here, looks pretty similar, same arguments and everything, lol. So Frank, we've been over this UV thing a bunch of times. Just a quick question - do you still use supplements? I know the first couple times I went out there you were dusting crickets - still do that?

It is sorta the same old thing. A tiny bit different.

For instance, your question. Yes I suppliment crickets, but not anything else. I raise all larger monitors without any crickets. Also crickets make up a much smaller part of the diet then it was years ago. I feed lots of pinkies. I do not suppliment pinkies(absolutely no need to)

ALso, suppliments are more about vitamins with crickets then calicum with D-3.

The question now is about Only UV and the use/placement of calicum. Not diet and the use/placement of calicum. If you read some of Jodys post, he is saying they most likely recieve whats needed in their diet.

All I/we are saying is, UV bulbs are not needed, period. Not D-3 is not needed. Not supplimentation is not needed. Those are discussions on their own. Just UV bulbs. There is a huge difference. Cheers

So the large species of monitors do fine on rodent diets even as babies? I am planning on eventually getting a V. Salvator. All the stuff I read said crickets this and rodents are fatty that.
Which are cheaper in the long run? (only if either works)
Also, I have heard conflicting information about whether baby water monitors can be overfed. What do you think about this?