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I just received my pair of red X whiteside bulls from Ron Radloff today. This gentleman is a class act and I would recommend his animals to anyone! This is the pic of the female. THANK YOU RON!

SHADE TREE EXOTICS

I COULDN'T BE HAPPIER WITH THEM!

SHADE TREE EXOTICS

I thought that red bulls where just high colored animals, not a morph. Am I wrong?

I think the red bull just ads A TON of color and really brightens up a bloodline.

Just curious on how everyone feels on this. Anyway you go, those are some exceptional bulls. Very nice!

I don't know if anyone has really experimented with the genetics on these too much, so its hard to say. I guess I will find out in the next few seasons. I would love to hear more on this subject if anyone has some info! Take care all!

Jeremy

After thinking about it a little more last night,
I have to disagree with you. Hypererythrism is the proper term for increased amounts of red pigmentation. Given that the Red bull is differentiated from a normal bull because of the Hypererythrism, I would have to call it a morph. I realize that its inheritance might function differently than some of the other morphs out there, but I would still have to call it a morph none the less. The definition of a morph (short for morphology) is:
"form and structure, as of an organism, regarded as a whole"

As a whole, Red Bulls are certainly easily differentiated from what the majority calls a "normal" bullsnake. This is obviously an inheritable trait, although I'm not sure if anyone fully understands how as of yet. As I said in my previous post, not many, to the best of my knowledge have really experimented with this form. I am very excited to see what may happen over the next couple of years!!! Thank you for sparking my thought process last night. My new born son was a little cranky and tough to get to sleep and my brain was turning to mush! Take care and have a great week!

Jeremy

then that's good evidence that it's a proven morph. I think some folks in Indiana were working with the Whitesided/Red Bulls this year, but I have not seen a Red-Whitesided out there yet. Just my openion.

>>Hypererythrism is the proper term for increased amounts of red pigmentation.

Unless you consider the red bulls to be the "proper" coloration. In that case, all other bulls would be hypoerythristic....lol. All a point of perspective!

> Given that the Red bull is differentiated from a normal bull because of the Hypererythrism, I would have to call it a morph.

Wait a second, though, because red bulls ARE a normal bullsnake. Those can be wild collected as the common appearances in some areas. Unique animal? Yes. Morph? I don't feel comfortable using that term. (FYI> Most people use the term "morph" as in "to change or mutate" and not as an abbreviated form of "morphology". An albino morph then is an albino mutation. Follow?)

The "red trait" is not a simple recessive trait, so be REAL careful calling a bullsnake as a het for red. It ain't proper as far as we know...and misleading!

KJ

Posted by: KJUN at Thu Jul 31 19:16:45 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

>>Hypererythrism is the proper term for increased amounts of red pigmentation.

Unless you consider the red bulls to be the "proper" coloration. In that case, all other bulls would be hypoerythristic....lol. All a point of perspective!

> Given that the Red bull is differentiated from a normal bull because of the Hypererythrism, I would have to call it a morph.

Wait a second, though, because red bulls ARE a normal bullsnake. Those can be wild collected as the common appearances in some areas. Unique animal? Yes. Morph? I don't feel comfortable using that term. (FYI> Most people use the term "morph" as in "to change or mutate" and not as an abbreviated form of "morphology". An albino morph then is an albino mutation. Follow?)

I agree that the Red Bull is a naturally occuring color form of bullsnake. I use the word morph in the same manner that someone would call an Okeetee Corn snake a "phase" or "morph".

The "red trait" is not a simple recessive trait, so be REAL careful calling a bullsnake as a het for red. It ain't proper as far as we know...and misleading!

Again I agree with you. That is pretty much what I said in my previous post. I didn't mean anything misleading by calling them "het", I just wanted to convey that one of the parents was a Red Bull. I'm not even trying to sell anything, I just wanted to show off my new purchases. Didn't think that it would cause a stir. Next time I'll know better. Take care all.

Jeremy

>>I agree that the Red Bull is a naturally occuring color form of bullsnake. I use the word morph in the same manner that someone would call an Okeetee Corn snake a "phase" or "morph".

I personally don't consider phase and morph to be interchangeable. A "phase," to me, means a generic animal representing a locality coloration or "morph" (Two different things again.) However, a "morph" is a mutation like I already mentioned. (If anyone brings up the fact that all species are the result of mutations, I'm gonna puke on my keyboard and not buy another. Of course, that is true, but not what any of us means here.)

>>Again I agree with you. That is pretty much what I said in my previous post. I didn't mean anything misleading by calling them "het", I just wanted to convey that one of the parents was a Red Bull. I'm not even trying to sell anything, I just wanted to show off my new purchases. Didn't think that it would cause a stir. Next time I'll know better. Take care all.

I don't think anyone was accusing you - at l;east I wasn't. That was just my opinion. I've got some normal bullsnakes that are possible het for the Stillwater version (if it is different from the original version) that are "het" for red bull, too. I try to avoid confusing by putting "het" in quotes in reference to the non-simple recessive red bull factor, but not in quotes in reference to the simple recessive hypo gene. (I also try to write it so people don't think theyse are Stillwater locality animals, too, but that is a whole other mess....lol.)

KJ

produce whitesided bulls with red saddles? If the red bull is not recessive then why were the offspring normal hets, atleast that's what the ad said. I just want to find out more about it.

>>produce whitesided bulls with red saddles?

No. I think it will just increase the amount of red speckling that is already present in some white-sideds and some albino white-sideds. If I am correct, it would make a VERY ugly albino white-sided in MY opinion.

Remember that the white-sided gene was once called "anerythristic" since the white-sided bullsnakes had such a reduction in yellow and red/orange pigmentation. If the white-sided gene turns out to be a "hypoerythristic" trait, then breeding it to a red bull will NOT be able to SIGNIFICANTLY increase the amountof red. This is just guess work right now. I guess we will be able to say more based on newer data over the next couple of years, right?

>> If the red bull is not recessive then why were the offspring normal hets, atleast that's what the ad said. I just want to find out more about it.

Well, the breeder can call them whatever the breeder wants. a name is only a name and doesn't necessarily make it mean anything more than that. I would consider an offspring from a red bull and normal white-sided bullsnake to be a normal bullsnake, het white-sided, with possible tendancies towards being redder than normal....or something along those lines.

KJ

Kingsville, Texas to a male Lubbock, Texas amel gene bullsnake produced by that itty bitty amel female bullsnake you just got from Steve. He lists them on our projected offspring page as Het amel bullsnakes. He has some eggs incubating right now.

>>>>I agree that the Red Bull is a naturally occuring color form of bullsnake. I use the word morph in the same manner that someone would call an Okeetee Corn snake a "phase" or "morph".
>>
>>I personally don't consider phase and morph to be interchangeable. A "phase," to me, means a generic animal representing a locality coloration or "morph" (Two different things again.) However, a "morph" is a mutation like I already mentioned. (If anyone brings up the fact that all species are the result of mutations, I'm gonna puke on my keyboard and not buy another. Of course, that is true, but not what any of us means here.)
>>
>>>>Again I agree with you. That is pretty much what I said in my previous post. I didn't mean anything misleading by calling them "het", I just wanted to convey that one of the parents was a Red Bull. I'm not even trying to sell anything, I just wanted to show off my new purchases. Didn't think that it would cause a stir. Next time I'll know better. Take care all.
>>
>>I don't think anyone was accusing you - at l;east I wasn't. That was just my opinion. I've got some normal bullsnakes that are possible het for the Stillwater version (if it is different from the original version) that are "het" for red bull, too. I try to avoid confusing by putting "het" in quotes in reference to the non-simple recessive red bull factor, but not in quotes in reference to the simple recessive hypo gene. (I also try to write it so people don't think theyse are Stillwater locality animals, too, but that is a whole other mess....lol.)
>>
>>KJ

I really like the yellow on them! Great find!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Congrats on your new son and all the babies this week, great looking Bull you posted. Best of luck with everything!
Have a good weekend,

Gregg F.

>>I just received my pair of red X whiteside bulls from Ron Radloff today. This gentleman is a class act and I would recommend his animals to anyone! This is the pic of the female. THANK YOU RON!
>>
>>SHADE TREE EXOTICS

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