Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read a little(very little)of the 'tame' Nile crocodile battle below. I'm not rehashing all that a frankly it's a waste of time. One thing I did draw from it was the debate over what constitutes 'experience'.

The Barkers(off python fame) have a system where you get 1 snake year for each year you care for a snake in captivity properly. I think a similiar thought works well with crocs.

There is a BIG difference in raising an animal from a hatchling to an adult and all stages in between than acquiring an animal short term and moving it elsewhere. Things are learned both ways without a doubt but to truly understand the animal you simply often have to see it day to day for years. We all have libraries and literature, contacts and friends, but their simply is no substitute for the day to day hands on training the animals themselves give you.

Who's a bigger expert the Barkers who raise pythons for generations or the numerous reptile rescue folks who may keep 15 burms for 3-6 months each annually. Both may be knowledgeable but I think most would lean towards the Barkers. It's like Dr.Britton. He spends his life with 1000's of crocs, thats alot of experience.

So how many croc years do you all have?
The Ultimate guide to Crocodilians in Captivity

Thats a good list, and a good idea, and I agree that the more you are around an individual animal, the more you come to know it, but maybe the people who go through alot of them have a better handle on how people, or other things go on with the species ?

Anyway - I am 22 and have been keeping crocs for around four years now, and would say I have roughly 3 years of captive "osceola" experiance, with maybe 1 of those being "general captive croc" experiance.

I do read up on them, paint them, sketch them, and enjoy watching and photographing them in the wild when the oppertunity is there, but I have really only delt with maybe 25 or so individual captive animals, at different locations, and have only "owned" the 5 (3 specks, 1 yacare, and one american ally) I currently have, plus another 3.

Of those other 3 The one small caiman died (We dont know why ?) and the other 2 specks were sold to a man I knew, because he had expressed interest in them.

The other animals I have been around, in captivity, over the years include, the spectacled caiman, the american alligator, the yacare caiman, and one young 4 foot (I believe now that it was a nile hybrid?) but was told it was a saltwater croc, I "babysat" for a guy. But I dont think I became serious about crocodilians untill osceola -

Id say my main interest in them is with osceola, and her as a teaching and educational animal, and more with preserving them and many other wonderfull animal species in the wild -

Now bird years though, LOL - I have alot of those

Raven -

That should read, I was not serious about KEEPING crocodilians, untill osceola (she was my first and only gator anyway, so, I guess as long as Ive been keeping them Ive been serious about there care)-

Ive always crocodilains as a species, and am a Hardcore Dino person at heart -

Sorry bout that not being clear or written in the first message -

Raven -

Chris,

I personally don't put much validity in that system for the following reasons:

1. The knowledge gained is directly proportional to the observation skills and interest levels of the keeper. If that person with the long-term burm just opens a cage once a week to clean and feed, what are they taking away from the experience? Would a person who did this for 15 years be more of an "expert" than one who did it for 5 years but spent time with the animal, was a careful observer, read the available literature and consulted with others about behaviors and situations? Personally, I don't think so.

2. The long-term keeper of that burm - even if they are extremely knowledgeable and keenly observant, are experts only with THAT individual snake. The people who are rehabbers/rescuers and have kept 50 snakes for 3 to 6 months (or whatever term) are exposed to a much wider variety of animals, all with individual characteristics that add to the knowledge base. They may not know much about the hatchling stage of developement (the stage least likely to be seen as a rescue) but they will know a lot more about the adult stages - the stage where the animal is most of it's life.

Bill

I agree with bills comment on this one…..and would like to add that someone who has spent 15 years with one burm (as example )and that lets say for arguments sake has never been ill would have nowhere near the experience of some who rescue’s them on a regular basis as most rescues arrive in poor condition so the rescuer has had to deal with a lot more treatments ect…and would therefore be a lot more knowledgeable on spotting and treating illnesses and dealing with the more aggressive one’s etc…….
Just my opinion..
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no way the way no limit the limit

but I disagree as well.

Particuarlly number 2. Most rescuers rehabbers do not deal with adult animals but rather the 'midsized' specimens. Very few rehabbers are involved with 10-12ft adult crocs or gators. Most are 4-7ft if that large. Keeping animals like this and smaller for a few months doesn't allow a huge window to learn about the nuances of a particular animal.
I say this because I've done my fair share of this and still do.

About number 1: I'm not necessarily referring to a person with 1 burm, but after 15trs of keeping one I would think a person with interest in the animal would have contacts, books, and alot of life experience...exactly 15yrs worth. But having contacts and books doesn't make you an expert, it makes you reliant upon experts rather than first hand observation.

It's the day to day thats the learning. But comparing the advanced keepers(i.e Barkers) to that of a rehabber, thats what I'm talking about, They see sooo much more of the animal from start to finish.

"I would think a person with interest in the animal would have contacts, books, and alot of life experience...exactly 15yrs worth."

Thats where I was sort of confused - I did not count sience I began keeping the animals, the full 4 years, as I knew relatively little of thier captive care back when the first animal was first aquired, and even thugh I had been interested in these animals long before that, and read about them, etc, I would not consider that "experiance" -

That's Why I said I have 3 years of know how - considering I had that one die on me back then, and (even though we still dont know why it died ? My guess, inproper water temperature ?) really actively started learning the particulars about their captive care, after the first year -

I agree that bill has alot of good points in his post, and thats sort of what I was attempting to say in the beggining of my other post. Particularily the part about the keepers and depending on how observant they are -

Id also venture to say that a good base of the animals natural history is important, to be able to understand "what" it is doing in captivity, and "why" it does the things it does -

Raven -

I believe you can learn more by raising 3 crocs whatever the species from hatchling to adult and maintaining them for years than a sporadic bunch of animals coming through.

I have done it both ways and can honestly say nothing beats the day to day experience of long term animals. Which is not to say I haven't learned from the passer throughs but just not as much.

I see what your saying but what about this……I have my own collection of reptiles no crocs yet but hopefully soon…….anyway I have raised several from hatchling a few more from yearlings and have kept a few of the rescue’s I have had pass through…I have done quite a lot of rescues and rehomed quite a lot as well., .everything from custom sized to miss treated and unwanted…yes granted there’s no better sense of achievement then raising them from the start but once you’ve learnt their personal habits and behaviours ect… what’s left ????now when a rescue comes in it could need anything from tube feeding to surgery …removal of various parasites, vitamin sups ,veterinary care the list goes on, .many of which I have never needed to worry about with some of my own collection but have needed to learn to be able to help the rescued ones….yes some only stay for a matter of months some go in a few weeks (quarantined and rehomed) but there’s always something new to learn. .which someone with just their own raised reptile wouldn’t necessarily learn or need to….
I’m not saying a rehabber is more knowledgeable then a normal herper just that there is a high chance they have had to deal with a wider range of reptiles and subjects.. ….. Just because they come and go doesn’t mean nothings been learnt.. I find its quite the opposite, I’ve learnt and experienced a lot more through rehabbing then from my own raised ones…
(just my opinion)
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no way the way no limit the limit

I am not saying rehabbers are not knowledgeable(this is turning into more than I wanted). Just that to think you can see enough behaviours from a few animals in short period of time to be an 'expert' is rather silly. I have rehabbed alot of crocs, mostly gators. I'd guess maybe 75 or so, maybe more. I can tell you I have learned much from these animals but very little in comparison to gators and crocs I've raised from hatchling to adult, and then maintained in that fashion. It is so totally different I think the only way to argue against it is to never have done it.

In that regard it would make field biology obsolete and unnecessary as we could learn all the nuances of an animal in a few months with them passing through. Nothing and I mean nothing compares to living day in and day out with an animal for years.

The behaviour changes, you notice more. It takes time and that is what makes one experienced.

As yet another example, we keep goats on our property. On occasion I need to call a vet. He will come out and treat my goats. He treats alot of goats yearly but doesn't consider himself a goat expert because he does so, but he knows how to treat them. Goats are extremely complex animals in their social structure and behaviours. You'd never know it until you live with them day to day. Often from birth till death, so many changes.

On the flip side, I often have to administer alot of shots and wormer to the animals once the vet leaves(he gives me the job,haha) it doesn't mean I'm an expert at veterinary medicine because I can do this.

Ok and do not be offended I am certainly not, ( in fact I find different peoples views interesting and educational ).
Lets use your goats as an example…..your very familiar them and have raised them from birth,
I too am interested in goats and keep my own flock (I’m not but still lol).and have had them since birth…..as you have. .we’ve done and learnt the same things with our own flocks….
I also run a goat sanctuary and have helped goats from all over the world….treated their illnesses and had to learn about their different breeds and needs which have further educated me although I do rehome them after a few months as I could not possibly afford to keep them……

Who in your opinion would be the most expert??????????

It’s a fact that most rehabbers also have the own private collections….
I bet you‘ve had to learn and do some things with your rescues that you haven’t needed to do for your raised one’s….and used that knowledge gained to further assist your own collection …….

As for seeing behaviours wouldn’t someone with say 5000 goats see more different behaviours than someone with 500 ???

Lets not forget there are experts in many different fields as you mentioned before….but to me the person who would be generally all round the most expert would be the person with the most fields under his belt……

Just my opinion..
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no way the way no limit the limit

We may have to agree to disagree, or our defintions are different.

Whehter it's goats ot gators you can be knowledgeable either way by keeping a few short term and learning. BUT it is just simply no comparison to someone who watches the same animals over time. Its subtle but it is there.

I'm not trying to step on toes here, I've done it both ways and this has been my experience. Expert- experience, hence the name.

"......(this is turning into more than I wanted)."

The forum's been a little nuts for the last couple weeks - must be the weather

Bill

i too see the funny side of things bill lol..glad to see someone laughing instead of tearing their hair out........

i agree to disagree lol..
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no way the way no limit the limit

my opinion, too
Ralf